Comments on: A sign of the times; War, health and the US legal system. http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/ For Lefties too Stubborn to Quit Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:05:24 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: WorldbyStorm http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30931 WorldbyStorm Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:47:27 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30931 I wasn't a lawyer/politician last time I looked... That's very honest of you in your last sentence... I think :) I wasn’t a lawyer/politician last time I looked…

That’s very honest of you in your last sentence… I think :)

]]> By: yourcousin http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30926 yourcousin Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:49:12 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30926 No, Obama is definitely in somebody's pocket much more than you or I. Unless of course you are secretly a successful lawyer/politician (let me assure you that I am not). My point about Ron Paul is that he was always a no hoper, and simply used the race as a form of self promotion. I'm not questioning his sincerity, only his determination to actually affect those changes of which he preaches. Even if he had won he still wouldn't be able to do those things on his own. So even though he had no hope of winning the presidency and even though his programs had no chance of being implemented by either house had he gotten in he gave credibility to the notion that the shill of election time (ie running for the top office in the land) was the way to elicit fundamental social change in our society when as stories highlighted in this post show much, much more needs to be done to even begin to prime the pump to tackle these issues. As for where we go from here? Well normally when I get too far down his road I go to the liquor store, but that's just me. On a more serious level, I just don't know. It seems that "progress" on social issues and especially in regards to things like healthcare has revolved around giving power to either large private corporations or the government. The two forces which are bound to screw it up and which I will never trust. Hypothetically I would adovcate a return to grass roots oriented society pre-mlitary industrial complex kind of thing. But in order for me actually espouse this I would have to do things like talk to my neighbors about the issues facing working people today discuss how we could do something about it. And if I freely associated and socialized with other people then I wouldn't very well call my blog "Misanthropy Abroad", so we're kind of at a dead end on that one. No, Obama is definitely in somebody’s pocket much more than you or I. Unless of course you are secretly a successful lawyer/politician (let me assure you that I am not). My point about Ron Paul is that he was always a no hoper, and simply used the race as a form of self promotion. I’m not questioning his sincerity, only his determination to actually affect those changes of which he preaches. Even if he had won he still wouldn’t be able to do those things on his own. So even though he had no hope of winning the presidency and even though his programs had no chance of being implemented by either house had he gotten in he gave credibility to the notion that the shill of election time (ie running for the top office in the land) was the way to elicit fundamental social change in our society when as stories highlighted in this post show much, much more needs to be done to even begin to prime the pump to tackle these issues.

As for where we go from here? Well normally when I get too far down his road I go to the liquor store, but that’s just me. On a more serious level, I just don’t know. It seems that “progress” on social issues and especially in regards to things like healthcare has revolved around giving power to either large private corporations or the government. The two forces which are bound to screw it up and which I will never trust. Hypothetically I would adovcate a return to grass roots oriented society pre-mlitary industrial complex kind of thing. But in order for me actually espouse this I would have to do things like talk to my neighbors about the issues facing working people today discuss how we could do something about it. And if I freely associated and socialized with other people then I wouldn’t very well call my blog “Misanthropy Abroad”, so we’re kind of at a dead end on that one.

]]> By: CL http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30922 CL Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:08:47 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30922 Neo-liberalism is merely the revival of notions, nostrums, concepts and ideas which have a history going back over 200 years. Corish was not taking about a socialist Ireland, but really existing capitalist Ireland. The growth, efficiency, enterprise and 'wealth' created by the health care systems of Ireland and the U.S are damaging to the well-being of millions. To uncritically applaud such notions is regressive. The documentary (link above) shows why. Neo-liberalism is merely the revival of notions, nostrums, concepts and ideas which have a history going back over 200 years. Corish was not taking about a socialist Ireland, but really existing capitalist Ireland. The growth, efficiency, enterprise and ‘wealth’ created by the health care systems of Ireland and the U.S are damaging to the well-being of millions. To uncritically applaud such notions is regressive. The documentary (link above) shows why.

]]> By: WorldbyStorm http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30919 WorldbyStorm Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:42:57 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30919 There is a clear distinction between the use of these terms... I really think you should look at how they've been used long before neo-liberalism. If one cheers for societal wealth and enterprise under democratic and socialist control one is self-evidently not arguing for the same thing as HMO's and it's incorrect to argue otherwise. I'd be terrified of a socialist system that wasn't efficient in various areas, that didn't encourage enterprise, that didn't increase societal wealth, that didn't look for growth to meet demand from citizens (not you'll note consumers). There is a clear distinction between the use of these terms… I really think you should look at how they’ve been used long before neo-liberalism. If one cheers for societal wealth and enterprise under democratic and socialist control one is self-evidently not arguing for the same thing as HMO’s and it’s incorrect to argue otherwise. I’d be terrified of a socialist system that wasn’t efficient in various areas, that didn’t encourage enterprise, that didn’t increase societal wealth, that didn’t look for growth to meet demand from citizens (not you’ll note consumers).

]]> By: CL http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30918 CL Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:36:51 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30918 "There is an Axis of Evil," David Williams says, "an Axis of Evil of inequality, of racism, of poverty, of economic deprivation that is adversely affecting the health of the American people." Williams is one of the creators of the 'Unnatural Causes' series. The 'health' industry in the U.S is one of the fastest growing sectors, it has created great wealth for many enterprising capitalists, and HMO/insurance company diktats ensure many efficient hospitals and many dead patients. So when people on the left cheer for wealth, growth, enterprise and efficiency they might keep the U.S. 'health' industry in mind. “There is an Axis of Evil,” David Williams says, “an Axis of Evil of inequality, of racism, of poverty, of economic deprivation that is adversely affecting the health of the American people.”
Williams is one of the creators of the ‘Unnatural Causes’ series.

The ‘health’ industry in the U.S is one of the fastest growing sectors, it has created great wealth for many enterprising capitalists, and HMO/insurance company diktats ensure many efficient hospitals and many dead patients. So when people on the left cheer for wealth, growth, enterprise and efficiency they might keep the U.S. ‘health’ industry in mind.

]]> By: WorldbyStorm http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30916 WorldbyStorm Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:25:28 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30916 Very true, but anecdotes are effective means of conveying larger political messages. Graham, re Ron Paul. Weeeeeellllll... perhaps... Very true, but anecdotes are effective means of conveying larger political messages.

Graham, re Ron Paul. Weeeeeellllll… perhaps…

]]> By: CL http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30912 CL Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:35:54 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30912 One can find a hundred thousand horror stories like the one above. What is needed is a class analysis that views health not in isolation, but as an integral part of the political and social environment. This documentary about to be broadcast on U.S. public TV is a promising beginning: http://www.unnaturalcauses.org/series_objectives.php One can find a hundred thousand horror stories like the one above. What is needed is a class analysis that views health not in isolation, but as an integral part of the political and social environment. This documentary about to be broadcast on U.S. public TV is a promising beginning:
http://www.unnaturalcauses.org/series_objectives.php

]]> By: Graham http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30901 Graham Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:01:20 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30901 The Ron Paul campaign is an example of people supporting "the system"? Is this the same Ron Paul who would abolish the IRS and the Federal Reserve? The same Ron Paul who has argued against corporate subsidies, international management of trade, "privileged government contracts to the military-industrial complex", and "a foreign policy controlled by corporate interests and overseas investments" (his words)? I don't think this man is supporting the same system that you think he is supporting ;-) The Ron Paul campaign is an example of people supporting “the system”?

Is this the same Ron Paul who would abolish the IRS and the Federal Reserve? The same Ron Paul who has argued against corporate subsidies, international management of trade, “privileged government contracts to the military-industrial complex”, and “a foreign policy controlled by corporate interests and overseas investments” (his words)?

I don’t think this man is supporting the same system that you think he is supporting ;-)

]]> By: WorldbyStorm http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30896 WorldbyStorm Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:36:35 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30896 Which is problematic if only because it doesn't indicate a particularly good way forward in all this. I don't think Obama per se is in the pocket, any more than you or I, but more that circumstances conspire to produce a de facto effect that makes it difficult to differentiate between his being in that pocket or not. The outcomes, as it were, become identical. And that's surely supporting your point as to larger problems where everyone is involved. Which is problematic if only because it doesn’t indicate a particularly good way forward in all this. I don’t think Obama per se is in the pocket, any more than you or I, but more that circumstances conspire to produce a de facto effect that makes it difficult to differentiate between his being in that pocket or not. The outcomes, as it were, become identical. And that’s surely supporting your point as to larger problems where everyone is involved.

]]> By: yourcousin http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/03/26/a-sign-of-the-times-war-health-and-the-us-legal-system/#comment-30893 yourcousin Thu, 27 Mar 2008 02:48:06 +0000 http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1178#comment-30893 I agree that Mick Hall has covered this ground with his point was that Obama and company were in the pockets of Wall Street. This too I would agree with as I've pointed out before, but it goes deeper than that, or perhaps shallower depending on how you look at it. I don't think that the entire campaign trail is a shill with the strings pulled masterfully from Wall Street. Strings (however discordent) are being pulled all over the country and in more households than ever before (there's already an 80% expected turnout for the general election). And while I believe that to a degree that the fundamental changes needed by our society will not be made on voting day there's enough at stake to merit a closer look. The fact that elections are little more than ceremonial changing of the guards is basically well known and the likes of Enronesque scandals still permeats (spelling?) through our society. Locally (for me) check out the Joe Nachio trial with Qwest and his new re-trial coming up. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is how long can we condemn the circus while still packing the under the big top? At some point we must admit to ourselves (at the very least) that the vested interested our not entirely malignant (at least in intention) and held solely by Wall Street to simply oppress the working class. This system requires (and receives) the active apathy and as we are seeing at times the active support of the majority of people in this country. Obama mania and the Ron Paul phenomenon are just a few examples of this. The vested interests simply don't stop at the end of Wall Street. I agree that Mick Hall has covered this ground with his point was that Obama and company were in the pockets of Wall Street. This too I would agree with as I’ve pointed out before, but it goes deeper than that, or perhaps shallower depending on how you look at it. I don’t think that the entire campaign trail is a shill with the strings pulled masterfully from Wall Street. Strings (however discordent) are being pulled all over the country and in more households than ever before (there’s already an 80% expected turnout for the general election). And while I believe that to a degree that the fundamental changes needed by our society will not be made on voting day there’s enough at stake to merit a closer look. The fact that elections are little more than ceremonial changing of the guards is basically well known and the likes of Enronesque scandals still permeats (spelling?) through our society. Locally (for me) check out the Joe Nachio trial with Qwest and his new re-trial coming up. I suppose what I’m trying to get at is how long can we condemn the circus while still packing the under the big top? At some point we must admit to ourselves (at the very least) that the vested interested our not entirely malignant (at least in intention) and held solely by Wall Street to simply oppress the working class. This system requires (and receives) the active apathy and as we are seeing at times the active support of the majority of people in this country. Obama mania and the Ron Paul phenomenon are just a few examples of this. The vested interests simply don’t stop at the end of Wall Street.

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