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	<title>Comments on: The Left Archive: &#8216;The Plough&#8217; from the Official Republican movement in South Down/South Armagh, c. 1977</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/</link>
	<description>For Lefties too Stubborn to Quit</description>
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		<title>By: WorldbyStorm</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43126</link>
		<dc:creator>WorldbyStorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43126</guid>
		<description>I think what you say is a lot closer to the truth Garibaldy. That said in the mid to late 80s a certain faction held considerable sway and Ard Fheiseanna programmes make for interesting reading. Again it comes back to strands which at one point or another were closer to power than not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what you say is a lot closer to the truth Garibaldy. That said in the mid to late 80s a certain faction held considerable sway and Ard Fheiseanna programmes make for interesting reading. Again it comes back to strands which at one point or another were closer to power than not.</p>
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		<title>By: Garibaldy</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43121</link>
		<dc:creator>Garibaldy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43121</guid>
		<description>Declan,

When exactly, was it The WP line that they were responsible for all the deaths? As I&#039;ve said above, I&#039;ll happily admit that there were times when - partly due to the preponderance of activity and partly due to a bitter history - that criticism focused, perhaps excessively so, on one particular group. I imagine that in media interviews some leading members came close to saying what you are suggesting. But sectarianism and sectarian violence were never seen as restricted to one particular group. Quite the opposite - the whole society is poisoned by it, and the whole political structure. I note also that we&#039;ve moved from as usual to on occasion. I think that that seems more reasonable, and I am open to the idea that it certainly seemed that way due to some angry or intemperate language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Declan,</p>
<p>When exactly, was it The WP line that they were responsible for all the deaths? As I&#8217;ve said above, I&#8217;ll happily admit that there were times when &#8211; partly due to the preponderance of activity and partly due to a bitter history &#8211; that criticism focused, perhaps excessively so, on one particular group. I imagine that in media interviews some leading members came close to saying what you are suggesting. But sectarianism and sectarian violence were never seen as restricted to one particular group. Quite the opposite &#8211; the whole society is poisoned by it, and the whole political structure. I note also that we&#8217;ve moved from as usual to on occasion. I think that that seems more reasonable, and I am open to the idea that it certainly seemed that way due to some angry or intemperate language.</p>
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		<title>By: WorldbyStorm</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43116</link>
		<dc:creator>WorldbyStorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43116</guid>
		<description>Well it is true that if one looks back at certain WP docs particularly from the early and mid 1980s they do place the primary blame (almost sometimes exclusive blame) on PIRA at various points in time. There&#039;s certainly an element of truth in the idea that the conflict was prolonged by violence (but we&#039;ve seen how difficult even in the context of &#039;peace&#039; it was to bring Unionism to the table and the idea that they were prepared to do so in the late 70s or 80s is nonsense... and that&#039;s putting to one side the uncomfortable fact that OSF/Republican Clubs were anti-Sunningdale, albeit they stood in the elections). But, I think as certain elements detached themselves from the WP a more nuanced view came back into being. I have an interesting piece by E. Smullen which I&#039;ll post up soon that takes a very very harsh view of SF in the wake of the hungerstrikes. But it&#039;s important to remember that there were various strands within WP which on those occasions came to the fore or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well it is true that if one looks back at certain WP docs particularly from the early and mid 1980s they do place the primary blame (almost sometimes exclusive blame) on PIRA at various points in time. There&#8217;s certainly an element of truth in the idea that the conflict was prolonged by violence (but we&#8217;ve seen how difficult even in the context of &#8216;peace&#8217; it was to bring Unionism to the table and the idea that they were prepared to do so in the late 70s or 80s is nonsense&#8230; and that&#8217;s putting to one side the uncomfortable fact that OSF/Republican Clubs were anti-Sunningdale, albeit they stood in the elections). But, I think as certain elements detached themselves from the WP a more nuanced view came back into being. I have an interesting piece by E. Smullen which I&#8217;ll post up soon that takes a very very harsh view of SF in the wake of the hungerstrikes. But it&#8217;s important to remember that there were various strands within WP which on those occasions came to the fore or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Declan Giggs</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43113</link>
		<dc:creator>Declan Giggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43113</guid>
		<description>Actually Mr. Garibaldy I think you will find it has on occasion been your party&#039;s line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Mr. Garibaldy I think you will find it has on occasion been your party&#8217;s line.</p>
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		<title>By: WorldbyStorm</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43111</link>
		<dc:creator>WorldbyStorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43111</guid>
		<description>I think Declan is correct to point out that it&#039;s impossible to assign 3,000 deaths to the Provo&#039;s - which as you correctly note isn&#039;t the WP line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Declan is correct to point out that it&#8217;s impossible to assign 3,000 deaths to the Provo&#8217;s &#8211; which as you correctly note isn&#8217;t the WP line.</p>
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		<title>By: Garibaldy</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43110</link>
		<dc:creator>Garibaldy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43110</guid>
		<description>I see that a supporter of an organisation that is not The WP is being taken as representing the views of WP members. Of course the Provos are not to blame for everything. As WP documents have stated for a long time (in fact since the events themselves took place), the responsibility for the outbreak of violence rests with reactionary unionism and the attitude of the London and Dublin governments, especially Fianna Fáil; and for continuing it beyond the initial couple of years, the responsibility rests mainly with sectarian forces, added to state actions like the Falls Curfew and Bloody Sunday. 

I have absolutely no interest in attempting to speak for Meadow Man (whose contribution I find bizarre), but what I will say is that we oughtn&#039;t to forget that for a long time - and the majority of the Troubles - the Provos were responsible for most of the violence. The Provo refusal to call a ceasefire despite the overwhelming wishes of the Irish people north and south ensured that things continued from some other sources, loyalist and nationalist, as well. Pointing that out at the time or since is not the same as blaming them for everything. Part of the rhetoric of the last decade or so has been to even everything out so everyone bears equal responsibility - we all hurt each other etc. Nonsense. The unionists bear the brunt for the violence breaking out, but in the decades that followed people took their own decisions and bear responsibility for them. And, as The WP has repeatedly pointed out, that includes people who voted for any of the sectarian political parties who perpetuated and exploited the divisions here just as it does those who were members of paramilitary groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that a supporter of an organisation that is not The WP is being taken as representing the views of WP members. Of course the Provos are not to blame for everything. As WP documents have stated for a long time (in fact since the events themselves took place), the responsibility for the outbreak of violence rests with reactionary unionism and the attitude of the London and Dublin governments, especially Fianna Fáil; and for continuing it beyond the initial couple of years, the responsibility rests mainly with sectarian forces, added to state actions like the Falls Curfew and Bloody Sunday. </p>
<p>I have absolutely no interest in attempting to speak for Meadow Man (whose contribution I find bizarre), but what I will say is that we oughtn&#8217;t to forget that for a long time &#8211; and the majority of the Troubles &#8211; the Provos were responsible for most of the violence. The Provo refusal to call a ceasefire despite the overwhelming wishes of the Irish people north and south ensured that things continued from some other sources, loyalist and nationalist, as well. Pointing that out at the time or since is not the same as blaming them for everything. Part of the rhetoric of the last decade or so has been to even everything out so everyone bears equal responsibility &#8211; we all hurt each other etc. Nonsense. The unionists bear the brunt for the violence breaking out, but in the decades that followed people took their own decisions and bear responsibility for them. And, as The WP has repeatedly pointed out, that includes people who voted for any of the sectarian political parties who perpetuated and exploited the divisions here just as it does those who were members of paramilitary groups.</p>
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		<title>By: WorldbyStorm</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43106</link>
		<dc:creator>WorldbyStorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43106</guid>
		<description>Yep, it&#039;s hard to disagree that anyone who picked up a gun, including (particularly?) state players had a responsibility for the ultimate outcome of the situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, it&#8217;s hard to disagree that anyone who picked up a gun, including (particularly?) state players had a responsibility for the ultimate outcome of the situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Declan Giggs</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43105</link>
		<dc:creator>Declan Giggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43105</guid>
		<description>&#039;3,000 deaths to answer for&#039;? As usual the Officials, Loyalists and Brits killed nobody. I think the Provos bodycount is offically 1,700. Bad enough. But no history of the conflict can be written by blaming them for everything, something that many WP members are wont to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;3,000 deaths to answer for&#8217;? As usual the Officials, Loyalists and Brits killed nobody. I think the Provos bodycount is offically 1,700. Bad enough. But no history of the conflict can be written by blaming them for everything, something that many WP members are wont to do.</p>
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		<title>By: WorldbyStorm</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43104</link>
		<dc:creator>WorldbyStorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43104</guid>
		<description>I know where you&#039;re coming from, but isn&#039;t your last paragraph a counsel of despair? After all you seem to suggest that there can never be a resolution...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know where you&#8217;re coming from, but isn&#8217;t your last paragraph a counsel of despair? After all you seem to suggest that there can never be a resolution&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Meadow-man Hickory Dick</title>
		<link>http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-left-archive-the-plough-from-the-official-republican-movement-in-south-downsouth-armagh-c-1977/#comment-43101</link>
		<dc:creator>Meadow-man Hickory Dick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/?p=1254#comment-43101</guid>
		<description>For myself, the son of a prominent, old, Newry die hard leading stick, who was interned, imprisoned, remanded and shot by the provos,  I feel the Newry ORM guys were hard done-by.  Dublin &amp; Belfast has always felt the arrogant right to dictate from their offices.  This final split (expulsion?) was inevitable after what the S.Down/S.Armagh OIRA had been through in the past - from British harassment to provo feuds.  With regards to what the WP leadership wanted them to put up with, a split was their only choice. 
The Stormont sitting, (new stick) provos, a movement that lasted not even 30 years.  Yes, look at their policies in 1970 - they are not the same organisation as back then, with their adopted OSF full circle policies and 3000 plus deaths to answer for (factually provable) are facing the same crumbling fate, hence the increasing number of IRAs roaming the island.
Hail the new sticks - Gerry &amp; Martin.. you&#039;re in for trouble</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For myself, the son of a prominent, old, Newry die hard leading stick, who was interned, imprisoned, remanded and shot by the provos,  I feel the Newry ORM guys were hard done-by.  Dublin &amp; Belfast has always felt the arrogant right to dictate from their offices.  This final split (expulsion?) was inevitable after what the S.Down/S.Armagh OIRA had been through in the past &#8211; from British harassment to provo feuds.  With regards to what the WP leadership wanted them to put up with, a split was their only choice.<br />
The Stormont sitting, (new stick) provos, a movement that lasted not even 30 years.  Yes, look at their policies in 1970 &#8211; they are not the same organisation as back then, with their adopted OSF full circle policies and 3000 plus deaths to answer for (factually provable) are facing the same crumbling fate, hence the increasing number of IRAs roaming the island.<br />
Hail the new sticks &#8211; Gerry &amp; Martin.. you&#8217;re in for trouble</p>
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