Karadzic and his alternative new career and image… July 22, 2008
Posted by WorldbyStorm in International Politics.trackback
It’s not right to make light of very good news like this. That said, was choosing to use
…a “very persuasive” false identity and [practise] alternative medicine at a private GP’s surgery in the city.
…really the wisest move for Radovan Karadzic?
Consider the flamboyant image used at the Belgrade press conference where he was…
Heavily disguised with a long white beard and white hair…
Hardly the best way to avoid attention I’d have thought. Indeed, if anything, calculated to draw attention. And note too how he appears to be on a stage at some sort of event. A conference? A presentation? Not wise. Not wise at all.
And strangely an amalgam of Rowen Williams, Terry Pratchett and Saruman comes to mind in the image above, and is that some form of a top knot on his head?
All very strange. This blog is always interested in unusual journeys in life, but this… this is sui generis.
Which begs a further question, what does one do when on the run from an international police warrant? Surely something a little lower key, a civil service position, working in a corner shop, becoming an agricultural labourer, any or all of those would be more suitable than alternative medical practitioner. Actually, the civil service might be trickiest of all. Mobility and minimal contact with state authorities would presumably be the key.
On a broader political point fascinating indeed from the new coalition in Belgrade which as Reuters noted:
…brings together the pro-Western Democratic Party of Serbia and the Socialist Party of Serbia once led by late nationalist autocrat Slobodan Milosevic, the architect of the Yugoslav wars in the 1990s.
This of course has resonances within Serbia.
The Socialists say they will “analyze the circumstances under which Karadzic was arrested and demand that the Serbian public be informed about how long he had been in Serbia.”
And most intriguingly:
But they said the Interior Ministry — the nerve centre of police and security forces run by Socialist leader Ivica Dacic — had not been involved in locating and arresting Karadzic.
Not that the news was received as an unalloyed good.
Secretary General of the Serbian Radical Party, Aleksandar Vucic, said that the arrest of war crime defendant Radovan Karadzic came as a dreadful news to Serbia.
- Serbia is on its way to vanishing, as Serbian President Boris Tadic has started bracing a dictatorship. With this arrest, he returned a favour to those who helped him for his unnatural government with the socialists – said Vucic.
Early days yet.
That said the Guardian noted a week or so ago a Serbian official saying that:
“The new government is expected to make a bigger effort to track down these men [Karadzic and the other most wanted man, General Ratko Mladic]. There’s going to be a big push even though a lot of people in Belgrade don’t think the Hague tribunal [for war crimes in the former Yugoslavia] is fair,”
Where it goes next, and how many others may receive similar treatment will be very telling.
Well, the Serbian Radical Party obviously wouldn’t
approve, since they’re ultra-nationalists.
Still, it’s odd that a certain element in the Left
will assume anyone opposed
to US/UK/Israeli governments (Karadzic/Milosevic,
Saddam Hussein,Mugabe or Bin Laden) is
automatically worthy of support, no matter how
nasty they are.
This is a serious problem, and you don’t
have to be an Euston-Manifesto signing
“Decent Left-ist” to find it objectionable.
I’d tend to agree. I’d be extremely antagonistic to Decentism, not least because it seems to have stopped being left at all in any meaningful sense, but… considering the names on the list I think there’s a sound left position which doesn’t have to cleave to decentisms while being profoundly critical of such individuals (and note how it is individuals, not nations). I can’t also help but be pleased that the SP in Serbia is in government. I’d like to hope they’re bigger than their antecedents and can provide some support for actual progressive politics while also providing a counterbalance to the over excesses of europhilia in the DP. Don’t know, maybe that’s wishful thinking.
This is a serious problem
Is it? Wouldn’t that depend on how widespread it is? Is it in fact particularly widespread? Why would we think so?
Of course the nasty communists had that cunt locked in the gaol where he belongs.
You only have to look George Galloway and some of
his followers for an example of this
“anti-imperialism of fools”. I said “a certain
element”, and Galloway would be a good example.
He might be, but to provide an example is not to demonstrate its extent.
Radovan Karadzic as a practitioner of ‘alternative medicine’;truly, charlatanism is the last refuge of the scoundrel….
It’s hard to credit.
All that said, it is good news and there’ll be many many who are delighted at this.
Not for long though Garibaldy, not for long.
ejh, that’s a fair point and yes, it is relatively restricted. But that sort of sentiment does exist in places. In part I’d think it’s an enemies enemy sort of thing, which is rarely useful as a methodology for figuring out the world.
Well indeed. Alas nationalism raised its ugly head, as they abandoned any claim of socialism.
True. You know, if you caught the footage of him on C4 News at some seminar in January I couldn’t help but think he looked a bit uncomfortable. I wonder did he know the game was nearly up, or was he concerned about being on camera. That said, I partially take back what I said above, whatever about visibility his new persona was genius like in its difference to his previous one. Every detail was down pat, black polo necks, slacks, little dreadlocky bits, huge beard, etc, etc. Even the shape of his face seemed a bit different. Stunningly calculated.
It was a remarkable transformation. Totally unrecognisable, and very clever.
It was. Interesting to know who dobbed him in and why.
Yep. Two stories so far are foreign intelligence agencies, and that the locals were watching people likely to be connected to him, and got him that way.
I have a horrible image of him
moonlighting as a Serbian Santa Claus….
I imagine the poor old Revolutionary Communist Party/Living Marxism/Spiked crowd must find themselves very conflicted. Pro-genocide, but anti-alternative medicine. What’s a girl (i.e. Brendan O’Neill) to do?
I’m minded to agree with Starkadder, although on reflection I’d replace the words “a serious problem” with “something that really pisses me off whenever I come across it”, and I wouldn’t cite Galloway as an example (he’s an example of many things, but not that).
It’s extraordinary watching the way the BBC handles the Karadzic story – I’m a long-term Bosniaphile & don’t have any problem with Karadzic being loaded with most of the available blame, but even I think they’re tidying up the story & skating over the gaps. They had John Simpson reporting on the impotent rage of the hard-line nationalists in Belgrade now that their genocidal leader has been brought to justice, etc. I’ve actually met John Simpson – I sat across the table from him at a Private Eye lunch, back when the Bosnian war was still going on. I distinctly remember him expatiating on the theme that they were all bad guys, it was all about the ancient ethnic hatreds, you couldn’t trust the Bosnian Muslims, everyone knows they shelled the marketplace themselves… Eurasia has always been at war with Eastasia.
I can’t recall anyone on the left ever saying much in support of Karadzic. Maybe I hang out in the wrong circles, but the only people I’ve heard saying anything favourable about him and his colleagues were right-wing Serbian expatriates.
As Phil pointed out in his own way, the most common (and, in my opinion, most correct) left ‘line’ is that each side carried out ethnic cleansing, ran prison camps, etc. The humour in Smiffy’s post aside, that’s hardly “pro-genocide,” even if you accept that shelling a city or killing POWs now qualifies as genocidal, which I don’t.
“I can’t recall anyone on the left ever saying much in support of Karadzic. Maybe I hang out in the wrong circles, but the only people I’ve heard saying anything favourable about him and his colleagues were right-wing Serbian expatriates.”
I’m sure Michael Parenti in his infamous book
“To Kill a Nation” defended Karadzic as well as
Milosevic. Admittedly Parenti seems very Old
Left in his attitudes.
Do the Serbs not realize that the No vote to Lisbon in Ireland effectively scuppers their trade-off? No quick way into the EU at the minute I’d say.
Anyway, the capture of this guy is welcome.
Maybe Sarko has told them something he hasn’t told us.
Michael Parenti may seem old left, but he is very much about Michael Parenti. Whatever form that takes…
I have to say, I think he looks better with the white beard than he did before.
Alternative medicine — sometimes you have to laugh.
The Serbs will be in the EU, or have a very very close working relationship that will be near indistinguishable, Lisbon or not soon enough – and rightly so. They’ve had a rough time of it as a nation and people. A bit of calm would be no harm.
As Phil pointed out in his own way, the most common (and, in my opinion, most correct) left ‘line’ is that each side carried out ethnic cleansing, ran prison camps, etc.
To be precise, I’d say that all sides were guilty in Bosnia in very much the same sense that all sides were guilty in Spain in 1936 (which I’m sure they were – I wouldn’t have wanted to be in the way when the Durruti Column hit town). Some were guiltier than others – and that’s still the case even if they’re currently being demonised.
That would be my view too.
That said I don’t think there’s much effort, if indeed any, made to understand why Serbs may feel they’ve been singled out.
I’m sure Michael Parenti in his infamous book
“To Kill a Nation” defended Karadzic as well as
Milosevic. Admittedly Parenti seems very Old
Left in his attitudes.
I’ve read that book. You’d have to remind me of the parts of the “infamous” tome in which Parenti “defended” Karadzic. Otherwise we’re just engaging in gossip.
Quite. Although I have very little sympathy for Radovan – I tend to think he’s the author of most of his misfortunes – there is that aspect to the discourse. I was struck there by the juxtaposition with this EU-Bulgaria thing.
Coming back on Phil, although we wouldn’t agree on the broader politics I’m sympathetic to the point he’s making. I watched the BBC coverage and couldn’t help noticing that it took three whole hours before they actually got a Serbian journalist on the line. Most of the time was filled up with journos, Lord Pantsdown and the usual suspects backslapping each other.
Tidying up, yes. Simpson is one case, but there are a lot of people who are a lot more bellicose now than when the war was actually on. And with all the talk of the new pro-European government, nobody mentioned the rehabilitation of the Socialists… or more precisely their rapprochement with the Democrats, the other faction of the old Communist Party. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Should point out it was this I was following on from:
That said I don’t think there’s much effort, if indeed any, made to understand why Serbs may feel they’ve been singled out.
The recent Oric case in the Hague springs to mind.
You say “And note too how he appears to be on a stage at some sort of event”
Well, he was on a stage of sorts. This is his medical (?) website
http://www.dragandabic.com/
That I didn’t realise. Still I learned today that he went the length and breadth of Serbia lecturing over the past number of years.
splintered, again, no harm the SP/DP link up.
Phil, that would be more or less my view.
The last “Chinese proverb” on the site seems interesting:
The one who gives up his own, shall dig two graves.
The Serbs could have given him up at any time over the last decade, and it’s only happened now because the political will is there. Let’s see if they hand over Mladic as well.
I agree with that, Bock. It wasn’t that Karadzic’s disguise was that good, it was that the Serbs didn’t want to hand him over. The election led to the change in attitude. The EU provided the carrot that carried the election.
Very true indeed Eagle and Bock.
Paddy, perhaps. Of course sectarian nationalists (such as RK) are basically sectarian nationalists, so I don’t think we should read too much into it.
I know, WbS, but it could possibly have been read as a coded warning to anyone “in the know”.
Dr. Dragan Dabic currently resides on Yury Gagarin street in New Belgrade, but for public forum invitations, television appearances or private consultations he can be reached directly at the following contact…
Cocky…
The disproportionate scale of the reportage,– in contrast to other larger horrors in Iraq and the occupied territories– is what always gets me. It’s that msm again…
I’d agree with mbari’s point above on the majority left line being that it was a civil war situation which was made worse by nefarious interference from outside.
interesting comment on lenin’s tomb on this. * It’s something I immediately thought of, as I heard the rehashed +witness bearing+ and fond remembrances of a time when atrocities involving the mass-killing of Muslims could be vociferously spoken out against –from today’s unusually… silent quarters of course.
*
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/07/what-are-odds.html
“I was flicking through reportage of all this and came across an article explaining how the accused had warned of an imminent islamic takeover, and suggested that we should do unto others as they would most assuredly do unto us, invoking the logic of a pre-emptive strike.
It reminded me of something.
johng | 24 Jul, 09:55 | # “
Karadzic was expendable. He’ll get them to the EU negotiating table.
I don’t think they’ll hand Mladic over so easily, because it will cause major political repercussions in Serbia and they’ll want something to show for it.
You could lay a reasonable bet that they’ll be looking for guarantees of territorial integrity in return for shopping Mladic. They’ll want Kosovo to remain an integral part of Serbia.
If they get that, Mladic will get the heave-ho.
[...] Link: Irish Blogs [...]
Paddy, apologies, actually on second thoughts I think you’re probably right.
Pax, in the context of Europe and recent European history I think it’s entirely natural that it would loom large. The events of 1991 onwards were near incredible, even in a Europe which had various submerged national conflicts. The break up of a federal state, ground wars, ethnic strife and cleansing going on for a fair number of years and so on. To be honest it’s hard to think that any coverage of those events or their after effects in that context would be disproportionate.
As for mbari’s point, actually I’m not certain that the majority left line on that is as he describes. If anything I suspect Phil and ejh articulate one closer to most peoples feelings. I can’t prove it of course, but the sense that even given a civil war context (and even seeing it as a civil war begs enormous questions) some sinned more than others even if all sinned is a reasonable analysis.
Interesting noises coming out of Belgrade though re Mladic. V. interesting point Bock re Kosovo, I wonder if they would push some sort of deal?
wbs wrote: “To be honest it’s hard to think that any coverage of those events or their after effects in that context would be disproportionate.”
Of course I meant disproportionate to the overall coverage (and apportionment of blame for the millions of deaths) of the events in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know you’re somewhat of a liberal interventionist having supported the Iraq war, Afghan, Kosovo etc but I was moreso on about the usual ‘decents’ of the pro-war left (which I still don’t put yourself amongst) and the reasons as to why the media are more comfortable covering the effects of one conflict over another. There can be no question that they have in this instance, yes?
Or indeed that they consistently do.
It’s hard to divine guilt and sure the media won’t help in that, so I think broadly speaking it’s safe to say that it was at least a civil war, within which both sides did terrible things. And as I’ve said, unfortunately made worse by nefarious interference from outside. Lessons were not learned there and they were repeated in Iraq and elsewhere to much, much, worse consequences. The guilty will not be charged in the media or in a court in this instance.
Do you, though, think that in comparison and contrast to the deaths in Iraq (and I’ll agree to a lesser extent Afghanistan) that coverage of Bosnia was greater or disproportionate in the 1990s during the conflict than covereage of the other two in the 2000s. I doubt it.
A couple of thoughts. I was critically supportive of the Iraq war, but I recognise(d) that was an error almost immediately. Since I didn’t blog or post and didn’t put it around that this was my position, because almost people I knew at the time were interested, I tend to hope and think that that completely wrong position had no impact at all beyond my own stupidity. Kosovo? Not sure at this remove. I’d be very much against much that has come since, particularly in relation to the deal Serbia has got, but that said, that war assisted in the removal of Milosovic, so I’m conflicted.
I certainly believe that intervention has to be the absolute last option. So I’d actually be pretty illiberal – so to speak – on that score. Indeed I’d much prefer all this given back to a beefed up UN structure on this area…
However, the Bosnian issue strikes me as a nested conflict where there were interventions from Croatia and Serbia which were as much a dynamic that had to be addressed as interference from outside former Yugoslavia. Those former – I think – demanded some sort of external intervention beyond that again if only to leave an extant Bosnian polity.
the problem for any who paid any attention to what the west were at in Bosnia is that the co defendants of karadzic will not be in the dock, the likes of Owen, carrington ashdown and their us and EU counterparts played a very active role in the ethnic cleansing and partition of Bosnia through the arms embargo.
an embargo which had no effect on the likes of milosevic karadzic or tudjman other than to strengthen them but ensured the Serb nationalists could bomb Sarajevo and other cities and towns with more or less impunity. Bosnian of Muslim, mixed ethnic background, or who who rejected ethnic pigeonholing were left defenceless and imperialism could sit and wait on these forces exhaustion to impose a solution which was more or less the very thing that they resisted so heroically and against such odds.
Bosnia and the break up of Yugoslavia was a terrible defeat in many different ways, firstly for the working class of the region but also for the left ( in Europe particularly ) who absented themselves from any solidarity activity by seeing the conflict through the same ethnic prism as the ethnic cleansers. ” they are are all the same ”
they couldn’t seem to grasp that it was ethnic unity that had defeated the Nazis and despite many shortcomings it was mainly in Bosnia that the concept of ethnic unity was promoted and defended. defended with little in the way of comparable weaponry to the forces advocating division, genocide and a greater Serbia or Croatia.
the weapons of intervention and manipulation by imperialism were the arms embargo and starvation and the left with few exceptions felt no duty to campaign against the deliberate disarming of that large element of society among all the ethnic groups who were against ethnic division and believed in the values which had allowed victory against the Nazis.
the dark forces mobilising around Serb and Croat ultra nationalism could likewise have been defeated if the arms embargo had not been able to ground out a result which was advocated by imperialism from the start.
ethnic division or sectarianism has always been how imperialism rules, occupies and imposes its will on other peoples, it has no other method. it is doing it now in Iraq and so has done in Bosnia .
responsibility for the war crimes in Bosnia goes far beyond karadzic and Mladic and can be laid directly at the doors of those western governments who will soon be running a show trial around karadzic every bit as hypocritical as Saddam Hussein’s. karadzic is as he appears, a very limited and banal far right political thug who thanks to western intervention played a very big role in making the region amenable to imperialist interests. its payback time now and his next role is as scapegoat to close the issue.
they hope to bury the recent past and rewrite history with imperialism recast as the heroes opposing the murderous forces which they found so useful in dividing and demoralising the working class of the region. the very forces who could have proved such an obstacle to plans for former Yugoslavia and further afield in the eastern bloc.
Just as a follow on to your thoughts Puisin I can’t help but feel that what was attempted in Bosnia by Croatian and Serb proxies was something akin to a fast version of politicide as that term is used by Baruch Kimmerling i.e. the destruction of Bosnia as a political and cultural entity. And that’s why I can’t agree with the idea put about that it was a simple ‘civil war’ and therefore the world should hold back.
I’d agree with you the break up of Yugoslavia was a dismal piece of work, although with Croatia and Serbia both desperate to project themselves beyond its constraints I can’t see how it wasn’t also an inevitable one in the long run.