Things Can Change in order to Remain the Same – Article by Eamonn Smullen, Workers Party journal Class Politics, 1983 September 24, 2009
Posted by WorldbyStorm in Irish History, Irish Politics, The Left.trackback
Guest post from Brian Hanley…
This article by Eamonn Smullen was published in first (and only) issue of the Workers Party journal Class Politics in Autumn 1983. It is significant because it is an attempt to provide a theoretical basis for the WP’s labeling of the Provisional IRA, and Sinn Fein, as fascist. That term was used extensively by the WP to describe the Provisionals, but it was rarely explained in political terms. There are two contexts for Smullen’s argument. One was the worsening recession with the Fine Gael/Labour coalition in government and denounced by the WP for trying to make workers pay for the cost of the crisis. The second was the post-hunger strike period in the north where Sinn Fein were making electoral breakthroughs, with Gerry Adams becoming an MP in June 1983, with increasing speculation that the party would make gains south of the border as well.
Smullen argues that the depression of the 1930s and the rise of the Nazis in Germany held ‘many lessons for us at the present time.’ He explains the rise of fascism as a consequence of the slaughter of the First World War. His general analysis of 1930s Germany is fairly unremarkable in terms of conventional communist historiography, noting the counter-revolutionary role of the Social Democrats while acknowledging some of the mistakes of the German communists. More perceptive are his comments on the practical impact of recession; ‘poverty- especially a fall from reasonable comfort to poverty- means desperation and such desperation can be harnessed not only against the establishment but also against the organized working class.’ Smullen notes how unemployment affects expectations; ‘unemployed persons who are forced to live on small doles are very sensitive…much more is expected from those regarded as champions of the working class than is the case in normal times.’ He notes ‘that some trade union officials get over £20,000 a year or nearly that amount. It can be argued that no person is worth that sort of money at the present time- especially from members’ subscriptions.’ Smullen argues that the Nazis were able to suggest in 1930s Germany that ‘union officials did not share the sufferings of their members or ex-members’ and that ‘at that time of acute depression the trade unions failed to offer any real hope of a better future to the young.’ Whatever about the analogy with Weimar Germany, the argument about the gap between the salaries of top union leaders and those of their membership, and the problems it poses, is certainly still relevant. Smullen then identifies the Nazis success as their being able to position themselves as a ‘phony left revolutionary party’ and harness the anger of ordinary Germans to reaction.
Turing back to Ireland Smullen notes growing cynicism about conventional political parties and the various efforts by the self-employed and private firms to undermine state companies. Perhaps over optimistically he claims that trade union organization has helped undermine the ‘snobbery’ that divided blue-collar from white-collar in the past, but notes again that a hard-core of lower middle class people could be attracted to a movement that appealed to ‘traditional values.’ He warns that the condition of the unemployed on one hand and the fears of the lower middle classes on the other could then produce in Ireland a new fascist movement; ‘if the unemployed young people cannot see a place for themselves…in our society there is a danger that street politics of the Brownshirt, SA variety many seem attractive…the country is littered with phony “left organizations” which could grow into Nazi type gangster politics. These groupings, one and all, now appear in the streets with those who belong to semi-armed groups who propagate the greenest of green nationalism. One group feeds off the other- the phoney rhetoric of “worker politics” is grated onto unadulterated nationalism…’
And then the punch line; because Smullen is clear where this fascist movement will come from. The ‘main organisation’ that had harnessed the ‘energies and frustrations’ of the Catholic youth in Northern Ireland had been the Provisionals; ‘the stone throwers and the petrol-bomb throwers have now been disciplined into serious viciousness…the Nazi street gangs made a hero out of a young criminal and a song in praise of this individual, the Horst Wessel song, became the anthem of the SA…the several SAs now plaguing Ireland have their anthems to Bobby Sands-Nicky Kelly.’ Just as German big business had funded the Nazis, the Provos were ‘established and financed by the Fianna Fail Party.’ Smullen then argues that the Provisionals were attempting to infiltrate trade union struggles in the south, aided by unnamed ‘ultra-left’ journalists and groups. He claims that both the mainstream media and some journalists had deliberately downplayed and even justified the brutality of the Provisionals campaign; ‘establishment and ultra-left – it usually means the same thing- journalists continually glorify the people responsible for the terrorism and for the many murders of innocent people. They justify the torturers, the knee-cappers and the droppers of concrete blocks on the limbs of men and women. When captured these people are “always innocent” – the foul deeds are always committed by someone else.’
Smullen concludes that the ‘terrible lesson’ of Germany was that the ‘Social Democrats and the Ultra Left opened the door for reaction to march through’ and that ‘serious class politics’ means ‘seeking out issues which unite rather than divide’. Therefore ‘fashionable, trendy issues that divide the working class should be avoided like the plague.’ For Smullen the ‘essential element in making revolutionary change’ was the building of a ‘disciplined, politically educated Party of The Working Class.’
There is no doubt that Smullen’s polemic would appeal at a gut level to many WP members, especially those who had first hand experience of conflict with the Provos in Belfast and elsewhere. The rhetoric also appealed to a southern constituency, some of whom were represented within the WP by the 1980s, who were appalled by the on-going violence in the north, which they blamed exclusively on the paramilitaries (usually the nationalist paramilitaries). But what did Smullen’s argument mean in practical terms?
In the article there is no hint that anyone other than the paramilitaries had responsibility for violence in the north, and no suggestion that the British government was in any way culpable. The Irish state however, through Fianna Fail, was blamed for setting up the Provisionals. Smullen’s assertion, that the Provos were simply the creation of Fianna Fail, was one repeated on many occasions by the WP. It is an inadequate explanation for the origins of the Provisonals and one which in my view became completely discredited by the WP’s overuse of it. It also meant having to avoid any other explanation as to why the Provisionals had not only managed to stay in existence, but were winning electoral support by the early 1980s.
Smullen’s ‘Horst Wessel’ dig at Bobby Sands and Nicky Kelly was no doubt emotionally satisfying to some of his readership. But it was simply political name-calling (as well as being insulting to both men, neither of whom were Nazis). And it was ironic that Smullen himself after all, had been a member of the IRA in the 1940s, when the organization had no electoral mandate of any kind, and when it’s leadership had sought an alliance with the actual Nazis. Smullen had been convicted of shooting a young man the IRA accused of giving information to the Gardai and was jailed in Portlaoise as a result. There he refused to wear prison uniform and spent several years ‘on the blanket’ to use 1970s terminology. Smullen of course changed his views considerably during the 1950s, though he would be back in jail (in England) for attempting to buy arms during 1969. It could be argued that these experiences had made Smullen acutely aware of the dangers of such activity, but perhaps they should also have suggested to him that denunciation and imprisonment do not seem to have much of an impact on the willingness of young people to become involved in republican paramilitary politics.
Similarly the language Smullen used to decry paramilitary violence was problematic, especially coming from a senior member of the Official IRA. The Communist Party’s Irish Socialist (December 1983) while agreeing that the WP’s rejection of armed struggle was ‘honest and in our view, correct’ noted that what it called ‘the moralising holier-than-thou spirit with which they attack the Provisionals…is hard to bear when one knows the details of their own history.’ And that was a view that had currency well beyond the CPI. It was not simply a historical matter. In 1983 the Official IRA were still very much in the kneecapping and leg breaking business. A WP activist might be able to explain why the Provos kneecapping of someone made them fascists, while OIRA punishment beatings were completely different, but the average person was likely to be confused. This certainly had an impact on the WP’s image in nationalist areas of the north. One of the interviewees in Fionnuala O’Connor’s In Search of a State (published in 1993) would claim that ‘ten to fifteen years ago I would have voted for the WP, but not now. Not only because of the hand-washing of the most useless kind they do but also when you run up against them at ground level in west Belfast, when you see how they behave- how they can preach to anyone else gets to me…’ In effect the WP’s condemnation of violence was simply not accepted by many northern nationalists, because they knew the party was being economical, to put it mildly, with the truth.
Smullen’s dismissal of what he called ‘trendy issues’ that ‘divide’ the working class is also interesting. He does not specify what issues he means but there is perhaps a hint in his assertion that when paramilitaries were arrested ‘these people are “always innocent” – the foul deeds are always committed by someone else.’ This fed into a view that focusing on cases of injustice like that of the Birmingham Six, or Nicky Kelly, bolstered the Provos and should therefore be avoided. Using the term ‘trendy’ also served to trivialize such campaigns, as something working class socialists should not be associated with. (My memory is that while there was often widespread sympathy for the Birmingham Six and others, their cause was hardly trendy). Smullen’s suggestion that the ‘establishment’ media was dominated by sneaking regarders for the Provos seems to have been a widespread one within the WP. During October 1983 Des O’Hagan would claim in Workers Life that there had been support for the H-Block hunger strikers across the ‘entire southern mass media, with one or two honourable individual exceptions.’ These assertions would not, I think, withstand any objective study of the media at the time, but what’s important is that some people in the WP believed them and they contributed to a feeling that the party alone was holding the line against ‘fascism.’ (This Provophobia also affected attitudes to the drugs crisis in Dublin).
Class Politics was aimed at party cadre, rather than supporters or voters. How much of the views expressed here percolated further than the WP is hard to quantify. In the late 1980s, for example, opinion polls on attitudes to extradition showed a majority of WP voters opposed it, in contrast to the party’s stated policy of support for extradition, with legal safeguards. Smullen’s article then is a snapshot of an argument that had some impact on the WP’s practice, on how they were viewed by others on the left, and in some of the communities in which they operated. How much of an impact is obviously open to discussion.


hmmm – this is probably the WP at its most pernicious I’m afraid.
I come across people associated with the WP on this site and genuinely have a high level of respect for their intellect, ability to marshall an argument, “general reaonableness” etc, but things like this remind me why I thought their organisation (if not everyone who was a member) were entirely objectionable in the first place.
Stuff like this did the WP great harm – and I’m sure lies behind a lot of the anti-Garland stuff you read even now.
Aside from the inane nature of the analysis and comparisons (not just an insult to Sands and Burns, but the millions who died under Nazism), how did this help the WP politically? I must have missed the crowds of unionist working class who flocked to join the organisation in the wake of stuff like this.
Imagine for a moment a counter-factual: that the WP stayed anti-imperialist as regards the North (as well as anti-sectarian, I don’t accept the two messages are incompatible) but kept the rest of their programme – how much more successful would they be?
By the way Brian – you may have been asked this before here but are you planning any launch events for your book in London?
thanks
Sorry Ramzi,
No plans as far as I know.
The Provo =Nazi line wasn’t confined to the WP by any means: I can remember arguing the same line quite often with British lefties ignorantly sympathetic with the ‘armed struggle’ without knowing much about its day to day reality. I’m embarrassed by it now, but it wasn’t that unusual a position then: and those who grew up post- cease fire may not be fully able to understand the frustration that gave rise to it. I certainly felt that the sectarianism of the provo campaign, allied with the uncritical reverence they got from the likes of Ken Livingstone (to pick one example) needed a corrective. I can remember a very intelligent irish musician (that should narrow it down…….), then (and now) living in London, talking about this frustration in an interview and comparing, for the benefit of British readers, the ‘Ra to the League of St. George. Again not accurate, but it must be remembered that growing up here in the 60s and 70s, nationalism was experienced as reactionary by many of us, and it’s link with violence caused the same unease at the waving of the tricolour and the singing of the Soldiers’ Song that the British equivalents did for the British left before such symbols were ‘reclaimed’.
I’m not defending the comparison: it was inaccurate and insulting: not to the SF/ Provo leaderships necessarily, but to northern nationalists in general.
Very honest of you SOS. I do wonder how counter-productive that line was. By ostracising armed actions in the North did it delay the bringing of those elements into a mainstream political discourse? Who knows?
While we’re at it, I should say the WP werent the only ones to play down support for the Birmingham Six for political purposes.
I remember reading in Jack Holland’s book “The American Connection” about Irish embassy staff in the USA (somebody Dolan I think in particular) trying to undermine the B6, Shoot to kill campaigns etc as they could potentially be used by the Provos for propaganda purposes. The fact that with the B6 campaign their opposition to nationalsim helped keep innocent people in jail didnt seem to overly concern them.
Very, very sad
Ramzi, to be honest I’ve always felt that the dynamic you describe in your first paragraph is close to the truth. By pushing Republicanism and worse again those that that strand represented (and even that’s a massive generalisation because clearly both the SDLP and WP represented people in varying quantities) to the margin it ghettoiesed the situation. Now that’s not to say that the actions carried out by Republicans during that period didn’t do their own pernicious stuff to help, but what developed in the South in particular was a culture of blame against Northern nationalists and Republicans in general.
And the WP, or at least certain elements in it (and curiously some of those went with de Rossa et al to DL) weren’t shy about vocalising an aspect of that culture of blame to the point where they lost all perspective (indeed it’s striking how the WP shifted back post the DL split to a more – well – natural – discourse on such matters for a party in its position).
WBS
Was the ” stated policy of support for Extradition with legal safeguards ” ever voted on at Ard Fheis? or was it just the opion of a faction within the WP?
RE 5 Sorry that should be addressed to Brian.
Maddog,
It was stated party policy as far as I know; published as such in the Irish People anyway.
SonofStan has a good point that it can be hard for people whose political formation has taken place after the Troubles have ended to appreciate how people felt at the time, and the reality on the ground. The reality was that in large areas of NI, and especially in Belfast, there were armed groups of people who saw opposition of any sort as treason, and sought to repress it.
We saw an example of this when Johnny Adair effectively “politically-cleansed” UVF families from his territory in 2000. I also had a conversation in the early 1990s with someone from a Provo family in the New Lodge who proudly told me that all the Sticks were burnt out of the New Lodge. Not entirely true, but not without a grain of truth either. I think that a DUP politician also said RUC men who were burnt out of unionist working-class areas after the Anglo-Irish Agreement could not expect to be allowed to live there when protecting the Agreement but am open to correction.
All this is without getting into the issue of what we call people who pursue an armed campaign claiming to act on behalf of the people of Ireland when it is clear that the people of Ireland didn’t want the campaign. As Brian Hanley points out relative to Smullen in the 1940s, it cannot be characterised as democratic. I mean, how would people here characterise the politics of the dissidents who shot the two soldiers and the policeman in March? The current RSF president was the PSF president at the time of this article.
So there is a broader context here for the use of this language in that The WP were far from the only people using it. There are other contexts too that I feel are worth pointing to beyond those described in Brian Hanley’s introduction. Gerry Adams was elected MP in June 1983. As Brian Hanley and Scott Millar’s book points out in the aftermath of that election, shots were fired at WP members’ homes, just months before this piece was published. Now we can say well that is due to history from the 1970s.
What about the burning of the previous MP, Gerry Fitt’s home in July 1983 by Provisionals? This wasn’t the first attack on his home either. He famously confronted a Provisional mob that broke in in 1976 with a legally held weapon. I could also point to the extremely brutal beating of SDLP Councillor John Fee in Crossmaglen in 1994 for criticising the Provisionals. There are other incidents I could cite, nevermind the low-level stuff like pulling down posters etc (not of course that this behaviour was confined to one organisation). The case can certainly be made that these incidents were the extreme end of a spectrum. And indeed SDLP members often used the term fascist themselves.
I would ask everyone on this thread how they would describe these incidents, against politicians opposed to the Provisionals, but not with a history of violent conflict. Intolerant? Authoritarian? Tyrannical? Fascistic?
No-one would argue that the Provos are now fascists. But I don’t think it is entirely unreasonable for people in 1983 to suggest that the term may well have some use to describe the actions of many in NI. Personally, I’d say that there was a strong element of fascistic behaviour in many groups in NI during the Troubles.
Agree with your last sentence… and you’re right about context, although that could be used to justify a lot of stances in the North. WP members may have shots fired at their homes – others were suffering worse than that mon ami.
Couldnt one describe the killing of some who split from the official movement as fascists? To put it mildly, I dont think that would justify labelling the entire movement nazis.
I think the issue (to me at least FWIW) is not that the WP said the Provos had elements of fascism within them – that stance would have been pretty easy to defend. Its that they seemed to write off all elements of the republican campaign as “green fascism/nazism” and let everyone else off the hook ie again I state I agree with your last sentence, but that didnt seem to be the position of the WP in the 80s.
Garibaldy: we could go around the houses, up the hills and back again until Christmas if we started talking about people being put out of their houses, beaten up or intimidated because of their politics. Former OIRA members have told me about their forcing Provo families out of their houses, battering Provos and threatening Provos and IRSP supporters. SDLP members in the 1970s complained of being intimidated by the OIRA and two Belfast PD members were beaten unconscious outside a polling station in 1981 for pointing out that RCWP members were voting ‘early and often.’ These things happened. Did it make the Officials ‘fascist’? In my view, no. Breaking peoples legs was used as a method of internal discipline by the OIRA for a period in Belfast. I don’t think that proves they were Nazis. The OIRA were threatening to kill dissident WP members in the mid 1990s. Does that mean they were fascists? Again I’d say no.
Smullen at least tries to put a political argument for calling the Provos fascists. I think the WP’s use of the term robbed it of political meaning and did not lead to any understanding of the roots of the conflict. It contributed to the view, expressed by the WP on many occasions, that the only problem was the Provos. Calling them ‘Nazis, fascists, the KKK, Islamic fundamentalists’ etc as the WP did (on one occasion in the course of the same article) in my view served only to further alienate the WP from potential support.
I’m not expressing a post-ceasefire rationalisation. I can actually remember the 1980s.
Ramzi,
I’m a great believer in context as a means of explaining, even if not always justifying. I raised the shooting at WP homes because it seemed directly relevant to the environment in which this article was written. Others were suffering more than having their homes shot at (although I wouldn’t downplay the trauma of that). Including WP member Davy Nocher, murdered by the UVF the same year. I’m not really sure what point you’re making with that. The murders were the reason The WP took such a strong line against violence.
The killing of people who violated IRA rules about forming rival organisations and stealing weapons was certainly the result of the authoritarian culture necessary in a military movement. The problems connected to having such an organisation were a large part of the reason that structure was abandoned.
I don’t think that The WP did let everyone else off the hook – and the records are there to show it, in the Northern People and in the press releases of the time. What has happened is that there has been a concentration on some criticisms to such an extent (by ex-members and by those seeking to criticise The WP) that the others have been overlooked.
Hi Garibaldy
thanks for the reply. My point, no doubt inarticulartly made, was that the context you mention wasnt an excuse for the sort of sloppy political thinking espoused in the article. Eg SF were having members killed at the time, but would deserve criticism for comparing the British or loyalists to Nazis.
In terms of “letting everyone else off the hook”, you may be right, but I have seen statements by members of WP blaming virtually all problems of the North on the Provos. I simply cant recall reading criticisms of the state. loyalists etc. I would genuinely be interested in seeing any evidence of such criticism.
PS. Re: Nocher – why did the UVF kill him? They surely couldnt have thoguht of as the WP as a threat? (I should state I dont think, of course, anything could justify it, I was wondering about the UVF’s rationalisation, should you be aware of it).
BH,
I agree – political violence, intimidation and so on in itself, may be a necessary but hardly a sufficient condition for labeling an organisation fascist.
However, one of the planks of my over-emotive argument from the ’80s that I remember is that, in their opportunistic and occasional ‘socialism’ SF/IRA bore a more than accidental resemblance to the NSDAP in that they were able to be simultaneously a populist, socially conservative, nationalist party in rural areas -as the Nazis were in Bavaria – and ‘leftist’ in the bigger cities, much like the Strasserite tendency in Berlin.
Now this doesn’t make them Nazis either, but it remains the roots of my caution about automatically thinking of SF as a left party.
Brian,
I certainly didn’t intend to suggest that you were expressing a post-ceasefire rationalisation.
As I’ve just noted in my response to Ramzi, certainly there were things done that ought not to have happened. And as I’ve noted, steps were taken to put an end to the conditions for that. As for the point about the 1990s, as I did at the time, I find those accusations less than credible. We can agree to differ on that if you find them credible.
I’m not sure if the implicit criticism in your remark that Smullen had a political rationale for using the term is aimed at The WP of the 1980s or at my last contribution. I brought up the point about the SDLP precisely because it was political, and cannot be portrayed as bad blood dating from the past, or rival armed groups struggling for control of an area.
I don’t think The WP was of the view that the Provos were the only problem, although in the 1980s when they were responsible by far for most of the violence, criticism certainly often centred on them. But surely the political analysis was always that sectarianism was the main problem in NI, that it had to be defeated by the expansion of progressive politics, and that it was only being worsened by the violence?
Brian
I have heard a lot particularly from posters here, that the WP was in favour of Extradition, Supporting the RUC, Supergrasses, Strip searching in Armagh Prison and were ” Pro Unionist ” to give just a few examples. Trouble is I can never seem to remember hearing about policy motions being passed on these matters at Ard Fheis, the only body that could make policy. You can add Section 31 to all the above, I am well aware that individuals and groups within the Party were in favour of these positions but they were the people who fucked off in the end. The published policy on the North remained largely the same throughout the entire period of the troubles in regard to Police, Courts and Repressive Legislation Etc.
BTW Book was excelent, a mine of information.
That’s true to a point, but those people and groups inside the party seemed to have considerable influence and used (legitimately or not, and not in my estimation) the authority of the party to force that. I mean Harris is open (and we read it in the accounts of people including Mary McAleese) about how those issues, and lets be serious these are ones relating to the North almost exclusively, were dealt with in RTÉ, etc. Now Harris might have been a sole trader, but it wasn’t unknown to those back in the party what was going on. So was it a case of licensed fool, or better the devil we know… or what? And as a member from the early to mid 80s until the split it was very clear to me in the South that there was no appetite at all to engage with such issues.
Maddog,
Thank you. As you can see there was good reasons to keep the analysis to a minimum! My co-author may, in fact probably does, take a very different view on this to me.
Ramzi,
Pick any murder by loyalists and look at the newspapers at the time. There will have been criticism by The WP, although it may not always have been printed. But certainly for areas where there were councillors or a strong presence that should be the case. The Irish News did an analysis one election (the 1997 general election I think) of numbers of press releases put out by the various parties. The WP came second, although by that time was lucky to get a paragraph or a line at the end of the story in most cases.
Here is something from the Election Literature blog; a proposal for a Democratic Convention (basically against terrorism). It doesn’t pick out any single organisation, but criticises the armed groups and the sectarian society that allows them to flourish
http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2009/09/18/the-workers-party-a-democratic-convention-in-defence-of-public-life/#more-891
As for Davy Nocher. There were elements of loyalism that didn’t really differentiate The WP from anybody else on the non-unionist side, and because of The WP’s history and politics saw it as a threat. There were attacks on members and premises continuing into the 1990s.
One thing that’s crucial and has been mentioned before is the significance of the feuds in the mid 1970s. The dynamic they initiated is central to positions later taken, and although the rhetoric had already hardened (and of course there had been multiple incidents and some killings) that really pushed it over the edge. And became a raison d’etre in itse;f for later approaches.
Fair play to Ramzi for posting up a document which is in equal parts fascinating, dispiriting and borderline ludicrous.
While taking Garibaldy’s point about the reasons behind WP suspicion of SF, when you focus on the article itself the reasoning is pretty puerile and Smullen isn’t doing much more than engaging in a kind of scattergun sneer. The Horst Wessel comparison is simply stupid while the implication, for example, that Nicky Kelly is guilty but being described as innocent merely because of a media love-in with the republican left is something Smullen must have known full well was daft. In fairness the attitude that it would be better for the Birmingham 6 to rot in prison for the rest of their days rather than embarrass the British government wasn’t confined to Eamonn Smullen, Ramzi mentioned this attitude being held by the embassy. Sean Donlon is often painted in glowing colours for his resistance to militant republicanism in the US but there is also an argument, which Vincent Browne made in Magill at the time, that in his zeal to wrong-foot Noraid etc. he was reluctant to engage in any course of action which might embarass the British. Though in fairness to Donlon, as a civil servant he was the man who travelled to the North and took much of the evidence which formed the basis of the Irish government case against Britain for torture in the seventies which was heard in the European Court of Human Rights.
Having read Things Can Change I do, unfortunately, have a better understanding of why the very mention of the WP provokes such a furious reaction from some posters in this forum.
As regards Sonofstan’s slighting reference to Ken Livingstone, (and I normally agree with Sonofstan on most subjects here), what Livingstone was doing in the eighties was giving SF and the IRA a hearing and pointing out that they were not psychopathic criminal monsters but people with political aims which, if addressed, might lead to the end of violence. Post Peace Process, there are plenty of politicians who claim they knew this all along but Livingstone was ahead of his time and I think was motivated by more than radical chic. And I say this as someone brought up in a house where my Labour voting father hewed to the Green Fascists line and where I did the same myself. It wasn’t till I moved to England and discussed it with people I met selling left-wing papers, people in the Labour Party there etc, that I realised there might be more to it than that. It’s as reductive to suggest that English lefties were en masse romanticising what was going on in the North as it is to suggest that anyone on this forum who makes a comment about Central America or Africa has no right to do unless they’ve lived there.
I had and have a great deal of time for Ken – I didn’t mean it to sound slighting. I was probably – wrongly, maybe – less tolerant than you of having my country explained to me by English people……..
But, yeah, basically i agree with you. In my earlier post i was trying to explain why I felt what i did then, not to defend it it as accurate.
Eamonn, I don’t want Ramzi to get the blame for that document, it was me sent it to the CLR.
I think it does illustrate a particular world-view that was current in the WP and was expressed both privately and publicly by them. It also fitted in with a wider southern view that saw the Provos as the problem and anyone who complained about plastic bullets etc as essentially a provo.
For example Des O’Hagan in his Oct 1983 Workers Life article refers to their being a decade of terrorism being waged by ‘Roman Catholic Dublin’ against ‘Protestant Ulster’ and the New Ireland Forum (led by Garret FitzGerald) being the latest example of this campaign. The language would not have been out of place among the wilder shores of loyalism.
If you look at the WP leadership discussions on the New Ireland Forum and the Anglo-Irish Agreement, to give two examples, you will find leading northern members arguing that there was no difference between the SDLP and the Provos, that the British government wanted the Provos to be the largest Catholic party in the north, and on several occasions it being asserted that the only thing worth supporting would be a deal that gave the police the power to ‘smash the provos’. (A lot of that was in the original 400,000 plus draft we gave Penguin, but not surprisingly cuts had to be made).
I still don’t see how the Provos breaking your legs was fascism, while the OIRA doing it was a completely different matter.
Thanks Eamonn but I should point out it was Brian who posted the document.
Gari – ok I take your point they would have criticised individual loyalist attacks, but I was thinking more of a broader analysis of the North’s problems. Essentially I am echoing WBS’ s point at comment 4
If I, ah, am adjudged to have made a mistake, ah, about the, um, identity of the person who, ah, posted that piece, then obviously if it looked like a mistake, ah, merely because I was wrong then, ah, people are entitled to, ah, perhaps . . . (Well, it works for Cowen and O’Donoghue).
Ramzi,
As Maddog has pointed out, the analysis didn’t change that much from about the mid-70s. The fundamental WP analysis was (and is) that the main problem facing the workers of NI is sectarianism; that both nationalism and unionism are sectarian all-class alliances that work against the interest of workers; and that all those who regarded themselves as neither nationalist nor unionist had to unite to pursue a progressive political agenda. Peace, Work, Democracy and Class Politics as the saying goes. In this viewpoint, unionism and nationalism are both fundamentally reactionary, although there are people with broadly progressive views within both of them (on things like integrated education, workers’ rights etc). That attitude has infused every WP policy document and motion on the north for thirty years and more.
EamonnCork
Where did Smullen actually say it would be better for the ” Birmingham Six to rot in prison for the rest of their days rather than embarrass the British Government 2 i think that is unfair.
If you think it’s unfair, I’ll accept that and apologise. But I think that the sneer about, “these people are always innocent,” could be taken to refer to the Birmingham Six campaign. And using Nicky Kelly in the Horst Wessel reference certainly seems to suggest he had no problem with Kelly rotting in Portlaoise which seems an extraordinary attitude given the background to that particular case. I accept Garibaldy’s point about the WP’s genuine opposition to sectarianism but the document which prompted this discussion isn’t much more than a set of tabloidy sneers and insults which seems mainly concerned with saying yah boo sucks to the Provos (though I can think of people who believe that saying yah boo sucks to the Provos was an essential factor in preserving our liberties.)
By the way Garibaldy, between NAMA and the Molloy deal, I’m so thoroughly sickened with the rotten state of the government and the system it represents, that I can’t take the same side on them as anything. I’ll be voting no to Lisbon.
I think Garibaldy that the emphasis in WP statements often changed over the 30 year period you describe, and that the SDLP were more often dismissed as a tribal, reactionary party than say the Official Unionists were. Ken Magennis was a cover star in one Making Sense and a speech he had made on Articles 2 & 3 was carried without comment. There was no comparable treatment of an SDLP figure. Hume was denounced bitterly by the WP for talking to Adams for example. And the rhetoric…Mac Giolla talking about the ‘genocide of the Protestant people’ at the 1988 Ard Fheis. Now whatever about your views on the Provos, this language was not used by the WP about loyalists in the late 1980s. I know there is a tendency to blame the people who later went DL for this, but from the internal discussions I’ve seen, the hard line was coming from key northern figures, whose bottom line was that it was the provos who were the problem.
That’s an interesting point you make at the end there, but I’d argue that it was a congruence of interests and a divergence of reasons for coming to much the same sort of approach and language. So the DL crowd were keen to forget the past and the Northern parts of the WP had had to carry the can and exist at the hard edge of the interface with the Provisionals. That it suited most everyone to express it in similar terms didn’t mean that the reasoning was identical, indeed some of those most ferocious about the Provisionals in my experience were those who were furthest away from the sites of the armed struggle. Another aspects of this was a further congruence with an ‘official’ in the other sense of the word Ireland symbolised by a CCOB etc viewpoint where the Provisionals as an expression of Republicatnism were absolutely anathema, as indeed were the Officials up to quite a late stage (and one saw vestiges of that in the unwillingness of FG to enter coalition with DL in 1992 – an unwillingness which had altered remarkably hardly 24 months later).
BTW, did Smullen always write like this? It reminds me very much of someone else’s prose style.
Hmmm… for those of us who’ve read the Necessity for Social Democracy there’s something of that there too.
Fair play to you Eamonn. I certainly wouldn’t agree with everthing in this document.
Brian,
I take your point, that the emphasis shifted to reflect the situation in the north. While there was condemnation of the various parties, there were also links with people within them. In fact, one of the main purposes of the Northern Ireland Regional Conference was and is to facilitate dialogue with a broad range of opinion drawn from other parties. The word genocide may not have been used about loyalists, but it’s hardly like they were not on the receiving end of harsh criticism. And as I’ve said, both the main blocs were seen as contributing to the problem, and fomenting the sectarianism that led to the violence.
I would be inclined to agree that – like in Smullen’s article above (thanks for it btw) – there was a concern to criticise those who were claiming to be representative of republican and progressive politics who were involved in or supportive of violence. This helps explain the harsher rhetoric. These people were claiming to represent the politics of Tone and Connolly. That was a red rag to a bull in the way that unionism wasn’t. It’s hardly like The WP was the only left organisation in history to vehemently criticise people it saw as perverting proper politics. Except of course the sects in factional disputes usually haven’t been carrying out bombings and shootings.
I’d also agree the northern leadership was pushing a hard line against the violence. I’d disagree that the bottom line that the Provos were the problem as opposed to being seen as the largest representative of the problem. The bottom line here is expressed in another slogan that lasted from the early/mid-70s on – Sectarianism kills workers. The main aim was seen as getting the violence stopped, and the other stuff tended to flow from that.
The Provos were seen as the biggest impediment to the ending of the violence, and so were harshly criticised for that reason as well. For 1988, according to a quick count from the Sutton database on CAIN, out of 104 deaths loyalists were responsible for 24, the British Army 10, the Guards 1, IPLO 2, INLA 1, and Provos 66. I may have miscounted, but the proportions should be broadly accurate. We can agree or not agree, but it’s worth bearing figures like these in mind.
There is that too. But I fear that the bona fides of the WP were always going to be undercut by their past, at least with unionism (which in any case has always been barren territory for the left – although only marginally less so than nationalism on the island generally). This isn’t a reason the WP shouldn’t have spoken on these issues, but perhaps a modulated tone might have been better.
But look, the WP was as late as 1990 attacking John Hume (look at the Ard Fheis Presidential Address by De Rossa) for ‘continuing to use the rhetoric of Europeanism to dress up a traditional nationalist agenda’ and therefore this ‘encouraged’ ‘some Unionist politicians … to invoke ‘people power’ to justify their own unwillingness to reassess the value of the policy of simply saying ‘no’ to everything’. And later he argues that ‘all democrats in the Republic must now cooperate in securing the deletion of [...] Articles 2 and 3′ as they ‘have become an obstacle to democratic political progress in NI… Surely it is time that the people of the Republic acknowledged, with good will and honour, that it is the people of NI working together who must define their own political agenda, and their own constitutional position? We must give those who believe in democratic politics the political space they need to develop political structures which respect all the legitimate aspirations of the people of NI’…
There’s mention of the upcoming 75th anniversary of 1916, but nothing at all to suggest that the WP given its position might be in a better position to offer a new critique, instead its straight into the jettison “Nationalist myths” type of rhetoric.
As regards extradition De Rossa is quite clear…
“Let me put the WP position on the line. Those who kill, maim, and destroy by bomb or bullet and claim to be doing it to achieve a united Ireland have no mandate from the Republic or the people of NI and should be extradited to face trial whether or not they can sustain a claim to political motivation… our extradition laws must be amended without delay, not only to allay the suspicions and fear of people in NI, but also to restore the self-respect of people in the RoI. There are more than enough safeguards built into our laws ot protect the rights of the innocent. We must stop the self deception and face the reality of the cancer in our body politic represented by the Provo IRA.”
I’d disagree with that approach both for pragmatic and principled reasons, but again I see that in part as a reactive approach following an history where the WP was in direct conflict/confrontation with PSF during the previous twenty odd years. By then the bitterness was ingrained.
I’d also suggest that in some ways that was an entirely Southern based analysis of how the disposition of forces would work out and one that was entrely blind to what had just happened in PSF a mere year and a half previously with the seismic shift of recognising Dublin (let alone the secret moves by PSF on a number of different fronts). It’s entirely explicable in the context of WP thinking but pushing the party towards an alignment with Southern establishment thinking (and no doubt for some that was a rationale in and of itself).
I think it is fair though having said that to recognise precisely what Garibaldy notes that the preceding three years had also been some of the bloodiest in terms of specific events during the conflict and that too had an impact.
It’s also fair to say that this is only one small part of the Address that was given that evening (and I’ll post its entirety up soon) and that bread and butter issues, which were to my mind the true strength of the party and its ideology were given greater prominence.
One wonders who wrote those passages.
Eamonn Cork
No need to apologise here, we all have different views and perspectives. As a youngster working in the print industry in London I had better not say for who I suppose , the pictures from the Prison in Birmingham, glass negatives courtesy of the spooks turned up where I worked. They showed that the 6 had had the shit beaten out of them. The negatives were destroyed on orders from above probably by a Chief Editor who was also a member of the D Notice Commitee. Copies were made which turned up years later in the hands of the Defence team and became crucial evidence.
Every one knew that the 6 were innocent, Hundreds of people had been framed over the years mostly British people and the saga of Miscarriages of Justice goes on and on.
The campaign to release the 6 was based on the British Mainland and was broad based. The Provos kept a low profile I seem to remember because they had blown up a load of innocent people to begin with, so I cant really see the relavance of the WP avoiding getting involved in the campaign as an issue.
We were all completely terrified BTW.
In fairness, while The WP has not made any massive inroads into unionism – and nor has any left party since the NILP – there were several hardcore unionist areas where it was taking hundreds of votes, including the Shankill. A lot of this was due to advice work. In Mount Vernon, in north Belfast and best known as the home of Mark Haddock et al – there was regularly an advice centre run from a caravan, and in this and other areas progress was being made. This was on the basis of hard work and class politics.
However, as the sectarian violence worsened at the very end of the 1980s and early 1990s, and with the DL split, and then the emergence of other parties such as the Greens and probably the PUP voicing a left unionism, those opportunities and those votes fell away. So it’s not true to say that a clear and unambiguous message of class politics made no headway. If I remember right, in the 1989 local election in Belfast The WP took around 6% of the vote. A figure the combined left has no chance of getting anywhere close to now. The figure may though be wrong. Again we are back at the fall of the USSR, the effects of Thatcherism etc.
The call to delete articles 2 and 3 was entirely correct in my view. They meant nothing, but provided a source of discord in the north. It cost nothing to change them. It seems to me that both Hume and unionism are being condemned as reactionary there. I’d say though there is a sign of DL attitudes to the north there too. I’d agree with WBS that this is very much a southern based speech.
As for the extradition thing. I think that sentiment came from the feeling that workers were being killed due to the pigheadedness of people determined to push on with violence regardless of what the Irish people though, although the particular wording definitely has a whiff of Harris, as WBS intimates.
I think though Harris was gone by the time of that speech?
The WP after the DL split reverted to opposing deleting Articles 2 and 3; at least according to Mac Giolla at the time of the November 1992 election.
I can well understand the WP’s positions but I think there is more pro-unionism than some will admit, as well as some frankly bizarre arguments advanced in Workers Life and Making Sense. What purpose did comparing British Labour party delegates who went to hear Gerry Adams at a fringe meeting to ‘ghouls’ who would be as happy attending a lecture by the Yorkshire Ripper serve? Walking off the Dublin Mayday march because Sinn Fein had a band on it?
You’re totally right about Harris Brian.
I’d be happy to accept that there were elements within the Party who were moving towards a pro-unionist position, a trend accelerating towards the end of the 1980s, but not that The WP itself was ever a pro-unionist or neo-unionist party. Walking of the Mayday march was the wrong thing to do in my view.
And speaking of ” pro unionism” is anyone following the thread on p.ie on the alleged unionism of the socialist party?
Fascinating discussion.
I recall arguments with some on the further left as to whether or not the WP represented a genuine potential for the working class to make advances (with me arguing they did).
I also recall (as I moved towards what might at the time have been called a “sneaking regarder” – around the time this article was published) being genuinely concerned that the WP gaining power would be a catastrophe for left-wing politics of the anti-imperialist kind as the WP would make the Cosgrave government look like sweet little white lambs.
But I kept civil (even friendly) relations with some WP people throughout it all.
One thing that sticks with me was the way that some of their people (in Dublin) would heap vitriol on SF and the ‘RA while recounting what a great time they had with their UDA and UVF pals in loyalist drinking clubs in Belfast.
I do believe that some of the most poisonous elements of the WP are no longer there, which presents the opportunity to engage the WP in a broader left republican project (or at least a left project which is not anti-republican).
PS: Fair play to the CPI for rejecting the WPs anti-republican nonsense of the time. This helped remove an obstacle to SF developing friendly relations with many left parties in Europe (it was less of an issue outside Europe where anti-imperialist line kicked in more naturally). If that avenue had been closed off (as the WP clearly wished) then it could have been more difficult for SF to influence (and be influenced by) broader political developments on the continent, to refine and develop its critique of the EU, and to mobilise political support on key issues.
It seems to me there is an attempt at some neat political footwork going on here. The foundations of Smullen’s argument when calling the Provos fascists, is straight out of the Stalinist cookbook. Third period Stalinist filth spews out, everyone in the German Labour movement was consciously selling the working class out, accept those who willingly acted as uncle Joe’s creatures.
Yes, all sides on the German left made mistakes, but none greater that the Stalinists when they targeted the SPD as the main enemy and then to read WBS take on Smullen,s article almost takes ones breath away,
“Smullen concludes that the ‘terrible lesson’ of Germany was that the ‘Social Democrats and the Ultra Left opened the door for reaction to march through’ and that ‘serious class politics’ means ‘seeking out issues which unite rather than divide’.” [Sure calling the members of the SPD willing tools of the nazis, was simply seeking out issues which unite the german labour movement--mh]
However it does not end there, if this was simply a matter of misinterpreting history we could place the facts on the table and put the record straight, but it was not. For the Stalinist falsehood about what happened in Germany in the period leading up to Hitler taking power, was partially transferred by Smullen to 1970s-80s Ireland, in an attempt to smear the Provos as Nazis. Not his finest hour.
That these attacks on the Provos took place at a time when their volunteers were under a military onslaught by the British State, should make all progressives pause for thought. I would compare this attempt to smear the Provos as Nazi whilst they were under enemy fire, with a leftist today bad mouthing Sean Garland whilst the USA is attempting to extradite him, only 100 times worse.
WBS
Re 28
I seem to remember De Rossa making similar comments about Internment, at best he was a loose cannon at worst this was a spoiler to provoke a split. Did the contents of the speech reflect Party Policy as decided by the members or a Blairite attempt from on high, no doubt scripted by Harris to shock members into supporting a point a view through media headlines without a debate?
What strikes me is that the argument that “ultra-leftists are falling into bed with fascist scum who oppose the very fabric of our society” is precisely that used by the Decent Left in Britain against the anti-imperialist left today. We keep coming up against these links between Stalinism and its mirror image, McCarthy-style witch-hunting.
Being one of the mountainy people (rural), and not being involved in the violence, I always found the high level political discourse a bit strange. For the vast majority of Republicans and indeed Provos the fight was simply about getting rid of the British. Maybe short sighted. Maybe niave. Maybe without a long term and complex analysis. Be that what it may.
We who lived with the foreign combatants on our streets, on the borders and trying to ghettoise every community (rural and urban) didn’t need a very intricate political ideology. And lest many people forget, Republicans and the majority of nationalists didn’t have much truck with the old voting as political representation was useless due to our voting bloc size and supporting Westminister wasn’t really the way we desired to be represented. Politics for my grandparents and parents was a dead end.
This was the reality. SF has shown themselves to only too ‘normative’ in relation to existing political structures – up until recently far too normative. They are and were always a far cry from the Nazi tag labal thrown at them by the politically astute left and now right in Ireland.
When one comes up against this astute type of politico these days, my eyes just glaze over. Most, imho, just don’t have a clue and those who were clued-up just didn’t understand the people whom they claimed to care about and want to represent. These astute politicos, in fact, exhibit the worst symptom of the past and current left: Over-analysis paralysis.
OAP is rampant in today’s progressive left. OAPs can analyse any point of socio-economic political discourse to within an inch of its life. They have a grand scheme(s) that will cure all ills if only the little people would understand and get on board. They completely ignore that most citizens don’t deal in grand scheme. The little people want a coherent and easy to understand analysis of the current situation. They want solutions that are easy to understand. They can be forced to adopt fairness and equity when fairness and equity can be justified in real economic terms.
With the left I’m always reminded of the adage that: an intellectual is someone who can analyse and understand the complex – a genius is someone who can explain the complex in simply terminology.
[...] Party, 1976 – 1978/Independent Socialist, Mai 1978 * Sinn Féin Ard Fheis 1986 * Eamonn Smullen: Things Can Change in order to Remain the Same [...]
It seems to me what the officials failed to understand, along with there supporters in the rest of the UK, as it should not be overlooked the officials take on the Provos infected most of the British left. Was the young working class men and women who joined the Provos did so because they provided them with the means to strike back at their tormentors. It really was that simple, as TG writes it had little to do with grand theories and everything to do with one British army beating or house raid to many.
Intellectualizing why they were fighting came much later, and was mainly due to the spare time Provo volunteers had whilst imprisoned. That during this period the overwhelming majority of Provo volunteers moved to the left not the right, in itself makes a nonsense of Smullen’s dishonest analyses.
I recall that during the 75th anniversary commemoration for the 1913, at a function, Garland berated Tom C (wp member) for associating with “this bunch of provos and provo apologists”. Tom was mortified that months of work, a lot on his part, was reduced by Garland into another example of “provophobia”.
Eamonn I’m sure that comments of that nature in 1988 were heavily influenced by the memory of Emanuel Wilson’s murder in June the year before, as well as the usual stuff. Plus we might do well to remember in the rush to retail stories of WP condemnation of the Provos that it was hardly a case of one side offering constant hands of friendships and olive branches and the other rebuffing them from bitterness. Quite the opposite.
The opposite? by which the WP were offering olive branches and were being rebuffed?
I articulated at the start what seemed to me that the ingrained provophobia (as distinct from provo criticism, which seemed to me neccesary) and anti-republicanism was what put me off the WP.
However, they were symptomatic (and perhaps at the extreme end) of a wider malaise in the South during the 80s, where the only problem was the provos, and the only solution was for them to be defeated. I didnt hear Bono talk much about loyalist/ security force collusion, shoot-to-kill or security force harassment, to choose a fairly high profile example.
To a certain extent of course the nature of the actions undertaken by the Provos did play a part in turning people off nationalism in total of course.
I suppose it would be interesting to see what the Provos were saying about the WP at this point.. where they calling them nazis etc I wonder? Probably saying they were in league with loyalism I guess.
sorry, I am a moron – this second paragraph reads marginally better:
I articulated at the start that it was what seemed to me to be the ingrained provophobia (as distinct from provo critcism, which seemed to me necessary) and anti-republicanism of the WP which turned me off them.
I didnt hear Bono talk much about loyalist/ security force collusion, shoot-to-kill or security force harassment, to choose a fairly high profile example.
There ought to be ‘Godwin’s law’ analogue for bringing Bono into a serious argument…..
to a certain extent of course the nature of the actions undertaken by the Provos did play a part in turning people off nationalism in total of course.
That’s a pretty major understatement.
I’ve accepted above that the green Fascist line was wrong and counterproductive, but its time Republicans admitted that their actions provided ample cause for many of us on the left to dislike and distrust them.
Ramzi,
I would point out that it wasn’t anti-republicanism. Rather a denial that those engaged in any form of communalism were republicans in the tradition of Tone and Connolly.
I’ll make my point again about the relative activity of the various groups in the 1980s. The Sutton database of deaths is very instructive for this. So the concentration of a lot of people across the political spectrum on the Provos was not made in circumstances like the early 1990s when the loyalists were killing the most people.
Check this table of numbers killed by each organisation by year and you’ll see what I mean.
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl
In 1984 for example, loyalists are recorded in it as killing 7 people. In 1985, the year of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, it’ 4. The Provisionals killed 44 people in each of those years. The figures for the British Army are 4 and 8, and 4 and 1 for the RUC.
These things have to be taken into account when we look at what people were saying in the 1980s. In terms of killing people, the Provos were the main problem.
Here’s the rub as far as I can make out: on paper much of the 1980s WP’s policy on the North and related issues was fairly principled socialist stuff: for workers unity, against Section 31, civil rights for all, against state violence, against loyalist violence etc. etc. and I think that many members actually believed in these.
But in practice despite motions, documents and occasional nods the overall agenda was an fiercely skewed analysis that saw the Provos as the root of all evil. Of course Harris’s gang finessed this skewed obsession with the Provos but they were never really reined in on this issue, and their obsession was shared by others in the traditionalist wing. The kind of bizarre stalinoid ranting epitomised by Smullens piece was typical of party publications. (Its fairly clear now that much of what Smullen wrote was either ghost written by Harris or closely inspired by him)
To those who argue that the ‘official’ positions were for real I ask this: Go through 1980-1992 WP publications and see how many ranting articles on the Provos, similar to Smullens, you find, then see if you can find any articles giving the opposite view. How many articles calling for the abolition of section 31, the release of the Birmingham Six, on sectarian loyalist violence, on state collusion with loyalists terror can you find? Im sure you know the answer: there was precious little on anything that might imply that the Provos were not solely to blame. TLR mentions Paddy Woodworth’s article but even at that late stage it stood out as exceptional.
BTW I do accept that there were a number of reasons for this distorted approach one of which was the history of conflict with the Provos in the North, especially the attacks of 1975. But this does not take away from the fact that there was a spectacular divergence between paper policy and practice in the 1980s.
Of course the WP is not unique in this regard: many parties have good policies on paper but they believe the opposite or act the opposite.
In a way, and this is I think a point you bring very clearly to the fore, as with the OIRA, this was another example of the party saying one thing and doing another. And there simply weren’t the pieces on the other side and as I’ve noted before individuals like myself who were supportive of campaigns against either state violence, or miscarriages of justice were given short shrift and a sense of ‘why would you be doing that?’.
Again, this is historically understandable (as indeed is the OIRA issue to some extent) but it undermined a sense of good faith about the party which then resonated much much more widely and made the protestations of whiter than white seem very very wide of the mark. I think it was a terrible strategic error in the long run setting up the debacle of the split not so much in the sense that it was the fundamental reason but because it allowed the rhetoric of the previous ten years to be used to pivot around as some sought to make an exit rather than remain within the party and argue and win or lose a reforming process.
Again, none of this is to detract from the achievements of the party. The period between 1980 and 1992 had solid genuine work on the ground that reaped dividends (although ironically in retrospect I wonder if those went to Labour in 1992 by the WP softening up the electorate for even mild leftish language).
SonofStan
Mate- I feel bad enough as it is quoting Bono – dont make me feel any worse..please?
As for your quoting of me in the second paragraph – I agree with you, republicans have to take responsibility for the wider impact of their actions. Thats what I was trying to convey.. although obviously not too well. And I suppose I should point out I am not a republican.
Garibaldy
- OK i take your point. However, with respect, the evidence you provide simply indicates why people would be anti-provo in specifc periods of time. The casualties from provos, loyalists etc varied over the eighties, but I dont think the rhetoric of the WP varied over that time – it stayed resolutely anti-provo despite the increase in loyalist violence in the early nineties, for example.
Or at least,so I think.
Adios, muchachos
SonofStan
Mate- I feel bad enough as it is quoting Bono – dont make me feel any worse..please?
As for your quoting of me in the second paragraph – I agree with you, republicans have to take responsibility for the wider impact of their actions. Thats what I was trying to convey.. although obviously not too well. And I suppose I should point out I am not a republican.
Garibaldy
Hola! – OK i take your point. However, with respect, the evidence you provide simply indicates why people would be anti-provo in specifc periods of time. The casualties from provos, loyalists etc varied over the eighties, but I dont think the rhetoric of the WP varied over that time – it stayed resolutely anti-provo despite the increase in loyalist violence in the early nineties, for example.
Or at least,so I think.
Adios, muchachos
Regarding this issue about condemnation not being extended to all sides. I’ll keep saying what I have been saying. Which is that the evidence is there in black and white in the Northern People and elsewhere. I understand that people mightn’t have read the Northern People because they were in the south. And as has been noted, the positions adopted by the Ard Fheis, the policy documents and the rest are there too.
As for getting involved in other campaigns. There are a number of issues here, with the one being invoked only one of them. People were focused on party and trade union work. But there were people involved in the sort of thing that is being discussed. I’m sure there are people who saw it as a distraction from the real business of class politics, and that there were those hostile because of the groups involved. At the same time, there were party members in the north active in groups like the Campaign on the Administration of Justice. Including it must be said members of the Ard Comhairle.
I hesitate to enter this discussion, since I barely remember the 80s, but…even in 83 the Officials has essentially stopped terror attacks, right? The PIRA hadn’t, and some of the bloodiest incidents were yet to come. I don’t want to relativise the violence that the OIRA was responsible for, but by comparison…
One thing I did take from Lost Revolution’s discussion of the northern WP was there was a real sense of despair at the violence-the apparent spiral into bloodier violence that PIRA seemed to embrace. Despite the fallacies of the position, and the hypocrisy of the “Group A/Group B” situation, there is something, well, noble about it.
Dermo,
I think you make a key point. If there is or was a lack of understanding extended towards those who chose to continue the violence and sectarianism it was precisely because The WP had made different choices in similar circumstances.
Eamonn I’m sure that comments of that nature in 1988 were heavily influenced by the memory of Emanuel Wilson’s murder in June the year before, as well as the usual stuff
Isn’t this just some fancy whataboutery?
YC,
Not really. As often with me, it’s about the context. Emotions ran very high over that murder, and not just in Belfast. It certainly reinforced a lot of the attitudes towards the Provisionals, and suspicions of them. So IF people were seen to be associating with them not that long afterwards, it would have raised eyebrows. I haven’t asked the people mentioned the veracity or otherwise of the story, which for the sake of argument I have assumed to be true.
I made my comment in the context of discussing the sticks. I well remember the scorn the shinners had for wp politics, calling them reds and commies and all that shite. I remember a well known dublin shinner councillor telling me that talk of socialism and equality puts the voters off and how they thought it was best to just stick to the “safe stuff”. He also told me Charlie Haughey done a lot for Ireland and questioned why I was always critical of Haugheyy.The bitterness of the shinners was also a reflection of their jealousy of the sticks with regard to the sticks ability to actually have some political thoughts beyond the basic eire nua packages peddled by the shinners.
Thanks for that Eamonn. Definitely an important part of the context too. Which is left out too often here in the concentration on The WP and its attitudes.
It is worthwhile noting that the 1913 commemoration event Eamonn is talking about took place in 1993 (I think) and therefore was not in the immediate aftermath of the Wilson killing.
It was a campaign, afair, that included a wide variety of people, including the WP, but not DL, who dismissed it as ultra-left.
Fair enough Andy. I’ll retract that but Eamonn had said it was the 75th anniversary, which would have made it 1988.
I have been thinking about this thread and I feel it is important to get things into perspective and Garibaldy is correct in trying to give us an idea of how things stood on the ground when the leadership of the Officials made these decisions.
I am not saying we should not argue out political differences, far from it, but we should be conscious that there are at senior levels within Sinn Fein, those who will be looking on anxiously at how this book is received. If the end result ends up as a hue and cry against the Sticks, you can bet your life that we will not be seeing a similar book on the Provo movement any time soon. Which would be a great shame.
Context is everything here and we must not make the mistake of loosing this. just a thought.
Cheers Mick. I was beginning to think I was banging my head against a brick wall with the context thing
Garibaldy,
I would buy the “context” argument if berating the Provos in such bombastic language was just in response to the murder, a blowing off of steam as it were. But as this article shows that is not the case and to berate one’s own member publically (if that was indeed the case) shows a real lack of leadership on Garland’s part. Context helps us understand, not necessarily justify actions.
I’d agree YC that context is primarily to explain rather than justify.
And I’d agree that, “to berate one’s own member publically,” is unethical if not downright unhealthy and immoral.
Interesting debate. One aspect of republican politics which is touched on in TLR and which has not been included in this debate, is how all republican factions continuously gather intelligence on local political activity. Smullen was army council i believe though i am not sure. He bends the stick (sorry) far to much given the developing ideology within provies and Sinn Fein. The move from and rosery beads and thompson gun to armalite and bollot box was well under way. But some mitigation has to be allowed, given from my recollection in Belfast in the eighties, particularly during and after the first hunger strike the sticks were fair game. In many ways this was lesson for the rest of us. Venting our anquish at the state and at those offering alternatives within our own communities regardless of the conseqences was not discouraged.
Having just heard Jack O’Connor stumble around the role of McLoone, Geraghty and Kinahan on the FAS Board I think Smullen’s point about union leaders salaries in time of recession is pretty valid. Having made strong points about opposing cut-backs, O’Connor was wrongfooted by Matt Cooper on this.
The problem with that issue is that it only can be defended on the ‘we live in the real world and these things happen’ grounds which are used to justify cutbacks in the first place. Though there’s a certain irony in the, correct. use of an Eamonn Smullen argument to smite Des Geraghy.
wp-Member nulling…
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health…
[...]Things Can Change in order to Remain the Same – Article by Eamonn Smullen, Workers Party journal Class Politics, 1983 « The Cedar Lounge Revolution[...]…