Meanwhile back at the Seanad, Week 8

Okay, so last week they spoiled our fun, because of the feast day. No Seanad, no fun… er no, wait, that can’t be right… But… there’s always the previous week which I held over. Oh yes. And what have we got? Well it’s not the happiest of weeks. Levity is thin on the ground… We start with a gloomy anecdote…

Senator Frances Fitzgerald: A number of weeks ago, there were requests from both sides of the House for a debate on women’s participation in public life in Ireland following the very successful report in which Senator Bacik was involved. We asked for a debate this week given that yesterday was international women’s day. I ask the Leader if that debate can take place as soon as possible. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to ensure we have that debate today because it is relevant.

Yesterday I got an e-mail, as I am sure many Members did, from a mother of two from Letterkenny who is also a businesswoman. She started her own business two years ago. I am sure many Members will have read the e-mail which made for very distressing reading. The woman states: “Today I write in total desolation and in desperation of any hope for me, my family and my business.” She writes that when she sought to have a moratorium on her mortgage extended by her bank, she was refused and her food money now goes to Ulster Bank. She then describes being refused an overdraft from Allied Irish Banks and refers to a number of other banks in her e-mail. It is distressing to note that when the woman sought advice from the money advice and budgeting service the advice she was given – she may have been summarising – was to close her business and go on the dole. The sentiments expressed in this e-mail reflect the anger, despair and hopelessness felt by many people. The systematic failure of the Government to be accountable to citizens has given rise to a widespread sense of rage.

On child care, in May 2009 the Minister of State with responsibility for children announced the establishment of an independent review group to examine child deaths. Last night, he announced the establishment of a further review group. Where is the leadership, responsibility and accountability in government when life and death issues are treated in this manner? There is no accountability to the Houses for the death in care of 20 young people and the inadequacies in the foster care system.

A few months ago, when the House debated foster care, many Senators placed on record the inadequacies of the foster care system. Do such debates mean anything when information such as that published in The Sunday Business Post at the weekend emerges subsequently? The Minister should come to the House to state the position accurately and honestly.

The lack of responsibility to citizens is also evident the banking sector and we see it in today’s disturbing statement by the Ombudsman, Ms Emily O’Reilly, on the report on the lost at sea scheme. The Ombudsman believes her work has been compromised. I call for an opportunity to debate her report in the House.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator can raise these matters if the House debates the issue.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Ombudsman indicated she believes these Houses are not able to do their work, as was clear from the decision to ignore the recommendations of her report. I could say much more about the widespread anger caused by Government lack of responsibility in these matters.

Then there is God.

Senator Joe O’Toole: This morning, I circulated to the Cathaoirleach a proposal that the Order of Business be amended and that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the following motion be taken as No. 1 on today’s business or, failing that, added to today’s business: “That the Broadcasting Act 2009 (Section 33) Levy Order 2010 [S.I. No. 7 of 2010] be and is hereby annulled.” The broadcasting industry and local radio stations are on their uppers, having lost 30% and in some cases in excess of 50% of income. Advertising has declined and jobs are being lost. Surely the House would not divide on this issue as I believe Senators on the Government side share my view on it. While I have no interest, one way or another, in this matter, it should be debated in the House.

I ask for the Leader’s view on my amendment. The matter is urgent because the relevant order was signed on 22 January and will enter into force, unless annulled by either side, within 21 days. The 21-day period will elapse tomorrow night. I concede that we could discuss the issue tomorrow if a procedural difficulty arises with taking it today. I am not trying to be awkward. The introduction of the levy will result in further job losses and cutbacks in local radio stations. On that basis, I propose my amendment to the Order of Business.

I refer to the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1926 which prohibits licensed premises from opening on Good Friday. As public representatives and legislators, we must examine the reason pubs and restaurants cannot sell drink on Good Friday. Was this prohibition introduced in the interests of the State or to meet the needs of the churches? We need to know where we stand on this issues. Amending the legislation to allow licensed premises to open on Good Friday, especially in Limerick for the match between Munster and Leinster, would be a win-win scenario. I want to make clear what we would be doing in changing the legislation. I am not having a go at any church or believer, but if we were to change the legislation, the net effect would be that while churchgoers and believers could abstain from alcohol on Good Friday on the direction of their church, meanwhile atheists, agnostics, sceptics, heretics and others could imbibe should they wish to do so.

(Interruptions).

Senator Joe O’Toole: This is a serious matter. Everyone would be a winner and free will would prevail. The separation of church and State would be maintained and we would render unto Munster the things that are Munster’s and to God the things that are God’s.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: What about BOD?

Senator Joe O’Toole: In that way the industry would gain, we would save jobs and the would economy gain. In addition, it would reflect everyone’s point of view, while not trampling on anyone’s beliefs.

An Cathaoirleach: As the Senator’s first proposal amounts to a formal motion which was only tabled today and, therefore, does not comply with Standing Order 26 in terms notice, it is not in order as an amendment to the Order of Business. As Cathaoirleach, I am not prepared to accept it on such short notice. It will be circulated today and included in the Order Paper tomorrow.

Senator Joe O’Toole: I will not challenge the Cathaoirleach’s ruling but on a point of order, I understand that, even though I said, “Nothwithstanding anything in Standing Orders,” it is still unacceptaqble. Is that the case?

An Cathaoirleach: Yes, it is.

Senator Ivana Bacik: In answer to Senator O’Toole and speaking as someone who grew up in Cork, the interests of God and Munster are often conflated.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should put a question to the Leader.

Senator Ivana Bacik: I second Senator Fitzgerald’s amendment to the Order of Business, calling for a debate today on women’s participation in politics. The Leader promised us such a debate this week. As yesterday was International Women’s Day, it would be timely to have such a debate this week. As the House is well aware, last October the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights produced a unanimous all-party report on improving women’s participation in politics. The report contains a number of important recommendations and the committee has requested that both Houses of the Oireachtas debate it. I ask the Leader to ensure we will that have debate in this House. The Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, is committed to participating in it and anxious that it be held. It was promised for this week, in particular, because of International Women’s Day. It will be an historic debate in that the issue has never been debated on the floor of either House of the Oireachtas. The committee will be debating the report tomorrow in recognition of International Women’s Day, but it is a pity the Seanad is not doing so today.

Yes, very good, one can almost hear the Senators saying, but what about the licensing laws?

Senator Ivana Bacik: I also support Senator O’Toole’s call for a change in the law to allow licensed premises to open on Good Friday. It is an anomaly that we do not allow them to open on that day.

Senator Donie Cassidy: What about Christmas Day?

Senator Ivana Bacik: It is an anomaly; I see that the Leader is agreeing with me.

Senator Donie Cassidy: I am absolutely not agreeing with the Senator.

Senator Ivana Bacik: I am sorry; I thought he was nodding in agreement. In 2010 it is no longer acceptable that we are holding to a quaint notion that Good Friday is a day on which alcohol cannot be consumed. I am not saying we should have drunkeness on the streets. However, as Senator O’Toole said, let those of us who do not believe Good Friday is a particularly special day choose to do what we want to do in pubs and clubs. In particular, given the match to be held in Munster on that date, it shows up the pointlessness of the provision. It is not so quaint when one looks at the bigger picture. On “Today with Pat Kenny” this morning the issue arose of trainee teachers having to learn how to teach religion. Religious education is a compulsory subject on the curriculm at our teacher training colleges, six of which are controlled by the Catholic Church, while one is a Church of Ireland establishment. The latter can give preference in its admission policies to Church of Ireland applicants. That is also anomalous in this day and age.

I seek a debate on initiatives to improve literacy and reading. I congratulate Dublin City Council and the organisers of the Dublin book festival which has just finished its three-day run at City Hall on Dame Street. The premises were transformed by book stalls, poetry and book readings and even a café. It was very welcome to see the event which attracted large numbers of people. It is the kind of intiative we should be supporting in this House because it is a way of engaging people in improving literacy levels and reading skills among children and adults alike.

Well that’s fine, but what about the view from the…er… pew…

An Cathaoirleach: A number of Senators missed out last Thursday but are present today. I call Senator Mullen.

Senator Rónán Mullen: I welcome the raising of the issue of the closure of pubs on Good Friday. It would be useful to have a debate on such issues, especially in light of a recent speech by the Minister of State, Deputy Martin Mansergh, in which he reflected on the type of model Ireland should adopt in its search for pluralism. He considered whether we should go for the complete 1789 separation of church and State or whether we should go for something that is more inclusive and respectful of different traditions while at the same time acknowledging the proper distinctions between church and State. I would shed no tears if there was a change in this law, yet I wonder whether we would lose something, particularly considering how Ash Wednesday is very successfully used by religious and non-religious alike to promote abstention from smoking and making an effort in that area. Something good can be achieved by drawing on the tradition of Good Friday. I know people with no particular religious faith who, for example, sometimes give up something for Lent in solidarity with a sick relative or for some such reason. We should not re-fight the culture wars over this issue. We should have a debate, but we should also be mindful of the value of traditions and their potential to contribute to people’s lives.

I disagree with Senator Bacik. I support the Church of Ireland as a minority which seeks to ensure its particular tradition is reflected and that there is access to teacher training for members of its community. This access demonstrates a valuable respect for a minority in our society.

In the context of international women’s day, I draw attention to a stirring article in The Economist entitled “Gendercide”. Some 100 million women have gone missing in the world as a result of abortion or infanticide because of sex selection policies, especially in China and India. I am concerned that the women’s movement has lost sight of this. I am concerned that its members are almost nervous to question the choice of killing a born or unborn female child lest they blaspheme at the altar of choice at which they are supposed to worship. I would like the Minister for Foreign Affairs to come to the House and inform us of what the Government is doing to raise this troubling issue in international fora. This is as important as any other human rights abuse in any other part of the world.

Okay, well that took an unexpected turn. A long way from the licensing laws we have found ourselves… Ah, no, we’re back again.

Senator Ann Ormonde: I agree with the points raised about amending the Intoxicating Liquor Act in order to bring it into line with today’s thinking. Of course we must be aware of Good Friday. As someone who grew up with the values of Good Friday, I feel it is possible to accommodate both points of view, maintaining the values of Good Friday while allowing pubs to open for large events such as the planned rugby match, as well as hotels in the area. I echo the points raised in this regard.

Hmmm… the wisdom of Solomon…

Senator Ann Ormonde: Also mentioned was the issue of women’s participation in politics. I agree that we should have had that discussion before. Ideally, we should have it this week, but I realise it will not be possible to snap our fingers and get the Minister in at short notice to have it today. I listened to a radio discussion the other day on the points raised and, while I may not be agreeable to the list system or the quota system, having jumped many hurdles on my own and never got a leg up in any sense of the word—–

Senator Jerry Buttimer: That is a matter for the Senator herself.

Senator Ann Ormonde: I would certainly not want to go down the road of the quota system.

The issue of grade inflation in schools and universities was mentioned last week. In view of the planned meetings of the education unions around Easter, perhaps that would be a good time to discuss more fundamental issues. Why do young people entering third level institutions not have a more rounded education? They may have engaged in rote learning, obtained their points and achieved success. I ask that this be kept on the agenda. We should have a discussion on curricular reform and other fundamental issues in education. We do not need to discuss grade inflation; that comes afterwards. The issue is the roundedness of young people and how they move from A to B to C.

And then there’s a different slant on Good Friday… let’s call it the Chomsky line… sort of.

Senator David Norris: I too received the letter Senator Fitzgerald received from the woman in Letterkenny. I replied to it straight away because of the note of despair in it. I am not surprised that people feel like this on a day, for example, when one of the main banks reported losses of €3 billion but rewarded its directors, apparently proportionately, with bonuses of €3 million. One person honourably refused to take it.

With regard to the controversy regarding Good Friday, I am sorry this has happened and I call into question the decision of the rugby authorities. It is outrageous to schedule such a match on Good Friday. I am old enough to remember when Sunday was a day that was reverenced in this country. Now it is the largest commercial day because we are lackeys of the British multinationals.

Senators: Hear, hear.

Senator David Norris: That is not just a religious position, although I take a religious position. It is good for people to have a day of rest. Sunday in Dublin was a beautiful day and I know that many employees of stores in Dublin and across the country are forced to work. I certainly do not join this populist rush to say we should open pubs and desecrate Good Friday. I have one other point. I am very concerned at receiving material from the Ombudsman, Ms Emily O’Reilly, indicating that she asked that her special report on the lost at sea scheme be referred to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. That was defeated in a Dáil vote along party lines, which was an astonishing subversion of democracy. I am not prejudging the issue, although it seems that certain applicants did not get the compensation that many feel they should. That issue is not for us to decide but what concerns us is the decision not to refer the report to the appropriate committee for decision.

An Cathaoirleach: That is a matter for the Dáil.

Senator David Norris: Senator O’Toole pointed out in the discussion held in the Seanad that there was no finality and there was a gap in the legislation. I express my concern on the matter.

Meanwhile there’s a curiously radical Fianna Fáil voice loose in the house… step forward…

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: This House should acknowledge what I would regard as a very important show of independence, sovereignty and compassion by the Irish Government. I refer to the courage displayed by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Micheál Martin, in bringing the plight of the people of Gaza to the very heart of Europe in recent days.

Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: He went there and briefed his colleagues afterwards. It is important to remember that very often it is stated that small countries follow on the coat tails of the big powers. Ireland has proved once again that this is not true regarding this country. It is particularly significant that the Minister for Foreign Affairs of this Republic was the first such Minister to set foot in Gaza since Israel levelled that particular territory and massacred 1,400 people, most of them women and children. If the rest of the countries do not speak up then it is important that our voice be heard wherever the opportunity arises.

The Minister stated it quite clearly; the conditions existing in Gaza are absolutely horrific and inhumane. It is amazing how silent people can become. The same countries were very quick on other occasions to speak out and become involved in war-mongering to push their ideas. We must ask why we are so silent when we see the misfortunate people of Gaza suffering. We must ask Israel, a friendly country and – I accept what Senator Harris stated on the previous occasion – a democracy, to allow building materials into Gaza and enable the misfortunate people there who suffer day in and day out to rebuild their territory and have some opportunity of a humane existence. If we do not do so we should stay silent for all time on human rights issues.

And  finally, the sage of the Seanad interjects…

Senator Jerry Buttimer: I join other speakers in asking the Leader for a debate on the Intoxicating Liquor Act. I hope the judge who will deal with the case will not interpret the legislation in such a way as to give permission to pubs to open on Good Friday. It is important to tackle the invasion of secularism and through it, money, that has become the god in Ireland. It is imperative to maintain the values that have been given to us. At a time when the church has not shown leadership, it is incumbent on the civic authorities to do so and to stand up for that in which they believe. As a practising Christian, I believe that Good Friday is a day to which we should hold firm and there should not be a change in this regard at all. I join with Senator Norris in suggesting a reversion to the position whereby Sunday becomes a day of rest and leisure—–

Senator Eoghan Harris: Hear, hear.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: —–on which one can attend matches, look after those matters that are of God or take a day of rest.

That said, I ask the Leader for a debate on the role of the Ombudsman and through such a debate, on the role of Parliament. I commend the bravery today of the Ombudsman, Ms Emily O’Reilly, who was dead right.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Hear, hear.

And once more…

Senator Feargal Quinn: The way one judges a society is how it looks after its underprivileged and those who are unable to look after themselves. Reading the headlines that hit today’s newspapers to the effect that the unions are taking action against schools, welfare offices and hospitals is a reminder that if we are discussing leadership, to which Senator Buttimer referred, it must come from the unions. It is not acceptable to aim to hurt schools, hospitals and welfare offices in pursuit of any particular claim.

Senator Eoghan Harris: Hear, hear.

On a more serious matter let us consider the unusual defence of Minister Harney from across the political divide, at least as regards the Seanad…

Senator Joe O’Toole: We should not waste the time of the Minister for Health and Children by requesting her to come to the House to deal with the matter raised. It does not reflect malaise or apathy on her part that there were problems among medical staff, including clinicians, physicians, radiographers and others. It is time we had a debate on the difference between accountability, responsibility and related matters and on the role of a Minister.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Hear, hear.

Senator Joe O’Toole: The role of the Minister is not to read X-rays or run hospitals but to ensure they are run as well as a Minister can so ensure and that if problems arise, they are dealt with. Blame cannot attach to the Minister in this matter. That is a disinterested independent view. What has happened is absolutely appalling. I understand what the Opposition parties have to do and do not blame them for so doing because Members on the other side of the House would do the same. Some Members have been here long enough to know that I defended the former Ministers for Agriculture, Mr. Ray MacSharry and Mr. Ivan Yates, a few months later, on the same issue. We do not do ourselves justice in carrying on like this. While we need answers, we also need to recognise and understand what it is a Minister is supposed to do. If anybody believes having a different Minister in the Department of Health and Children would change matters at hospital level, that is not the way it happens. We should consider this point.

Senator Shane Ross: I see why Members on this side of the House want an urgent debate on what happened in Tallaght Hospital. That is important and it would be very useful if we had one. However, what Senator O’Toole said is correct that the knee-jerk reaction of some politicians when something happens in a vast Department like the Department of Health and Children of calling for the resignation of the Minister for Health and Children is absurd. It would be sensible for her to come to the House when she returns from New Zealand to explain what happened because a very tragic situation has arisen in Tallaght Hospital.

Undoubtedly, there should be accountability but I deplore the fact that politicians – we are all guilty of it – constantly lose sight of the fact the people who matter are the patients. It is not really time for bloodlust and to call for the resignation of the Minister simply because something happened in her Department for which she is not directly responsible. It is not reasonable to expect her to police every corridor, every X-ray machine or every hospital every day. It is reasonable to expect her to come to the House to tell us what happened, why it happened and what will be done to ensure it does not happen again.

Some time ago a similarly absurd reaction came from the Opposition when the Taoiseach was found to have held €400 worth of shares in Conroy Petroleum. There were screams for his resignation because he had some vague and indirect involvement in mining in the Ministry he held at the time. We must be very careful when something happens that we do not blame a Minister for something for which he or she is quite obviously not directly responsible. We should demand that the Minister for Health and Children comes into the House if we need an explanation but it is a pity to constantly demand resignations because it devalues calls made in reasonable and justifiable circumstances.

Senator Jim Walsh: I support the expressions of concern in regard to the situation in Tallaght Hospital. I agree with what Senator Ross said. The political thing to do is to accuse the Minister of being in some way responsible. However, that undermines the whole system, in particular the accountability factor. Last night and this morning I heard people talk about another systems failure. This was not a systems failure but a case of an individual or individuals who failed to do their job properly in the public service. The time has come when those people must be held to account in the same way as those in the private sector who err grievously in the carrying out of their duties are held to account. Unless we do that, we will not have accountability in the public service.

Hmmm… an interesting line of attack…

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Given that the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources unanimously approved a motion on the broadcasting levy, I ask the Leader, in the interest of jobs and communications policy, to accept Senator O’Toole’s motion allowing it to be passed rather than divide the House, as Senator Norris rightly remarked. That would give power to all of us in this House.

Some 54,000 X-rays were not read. It is not the Minister’s duty to read all those X-rays. The story of Tallaght Hospital is about patients who are people, as Senator Ross rightly noted. It is about what happens when there is no accountability and responsibility. There is a fault line in Irish life today, created in the main by the Fianna Fáil Party. There is neither accountability nor responsibility. When will we see the Government accepting responsibility? It is sickening to listen to people talking about the HSE. The HSE was created and is fed by Government. It was created as a buffer zone, with bureaucrats taking the blame instead of having political responsibility. When will this stop?

We are talking about people. If one listens to Rebecca O’Malley or reads her comments in the newspapers this morning, one will see that the core of what she is saying is that certain people are looking after others. There is a bonus culture in this country, again created by Fianna Fáil, which has allowed for the passing of the buck. When will we see an end to the Fianna Fáil operation of allowing for no responsibility or accountability? When will we see change?

When will we have a debate—–

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator’s time is up.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: We need to have a debate on accountability and responsibility in this House.

And what better man the next day to offer contributions to such a debate than the sage, making a contribution two days running…

Senator Eoghan Harris: Behind the call for a debate on Tallaght Hospital lies a wider question of responsibility and authority. While Senator Buttimer correctly identified the source of the problem as the HSE, he draws the wrong conclusion in believing the Minister should go. Senator O’Toole is right in believing a Minister cannot be held responsible for stuff that goes wrong down the chain.

I repudiate the habit in Irish political culture of borrowing from British political culture. There was no point in setting up the State if we were going to do this. For example, there is much talk about having a list system for elections. In our political culture people like to have a direct relationship with their Deputies. There was the debacle about the rugby match to be held on Good Friday because the political culture of the country was ignored. The same is true of the culture of resignations.

A very good principle of subsidiarity is worth borrowing from Catholic social teaching. It teaches that no large body should perform a function which a smaller body can perform. The Minister should not be held directly responsible for matters which are the responsibility of managers and consultants. If there is chronic neglect by the Minister, she should be held responsible. Deputy Harney is a reforming Minister for Health and Children. She cannot be held to account for failures. She addresses the health system. However, she can be held to account and is neglectful in another area. We depend on her to be a reforming Minister in taking on the public sector arrogance and feather-bedding of the HSE. We are all dancing around the subject. We all know that behind this there is a culture of total arrogance in the HSE. If one goes into an accident and emergency department, one sees them tapping away on computers and chatting to each other. This has grown up during the years. We saw it in the Passport Office the other day. Women were crying outside the Passport Office, trying to go to have an abortion in England close to term and the staff were inside. Why have tributes been paid to Passport Office staff? There is no point in denying public sector strikes are a direct attack on the public. As long as they can play the Government against the Opposition, we will never have reform.

Ah, yes, what is the phrase… ‘fair and balanced’…

Meanwhile one Senator wasn’t happy with something the sage mentioned…

Senator Rónán Mullen: I broadly support what Senators O’Toole and Harris said about ministerial responsibility in the Tallaght hospital issue. However, there may be questions to answer in due course as to how this problem evolved. We must look at the failures within the hospital administration. That is the core issue. In passing, I regret the example given by Senator Harris with regard to seeking an abortion in Britain. That is a tragic abuse of human rights which should never be used as an argument for anything.

In conclusion though this week a generous thought from David Norris about Michael Foot… yes, that Michael Foot…

Last week Senator Hannigan paid a generous tribute to Michael Foot, the great leader of the British Labour Party. However, one aspect of the man that has not really been put forward to the degree it should is his remarkable connection with Ireland. In 1980, Victor Griffin, then Dean of St. Patrick’s Cathedral, invited him to deliver the first Swift lecture. Michael Foot was a great authority on Swift and he spoke unscripted – I was there. He gave the most electrifying and marvellous address on Swift, the challenge the writer posed to church, state and politicians, his horror of war and cruelty and conquests and crimes committed in the name of Christ or patriotism. He spoke of how Swift prophesied that if the new money class – the bankers – should rule the community, there would be a danger of unrestricted capitalism, especially to the poor—–

An Cathaoirleach: Senator, please.

Senator David Norris: Today that is more relevant than ever. I wish to emphasise this remarkable connection of the great Michael Foot with the even greater spirit of Jonathan Swift.

And with that let us bid farewell to the Seanad. We’ll see them again next week, but then there’ll be a break for a week or two. I don’t know if we’ll miss them, but I’m fairly sure they don’t miss us…