For Lefties too Stubborn to Quit
To honour the memory of Toyosi Shitta-Bey, who tragically died last Friday, his family and friends are organising a march and rally to call on communities to unite against racism and violence this Saturday. Please spread the word and encourage friends, family and colleagues to come along. Details and flyer below.
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How can you faithfully march against violence or racism when a group of African teenagers comprising the deceased Toyosi Shittabey brutally attacked and robbed, with a deadly weapon, two irishmen in tyrrelstown, Dublin 15, immediately prior to the tragic events of April 2nd 2010? An incident which has a direct bearing on the later tragic events of the same night? How can you condone this behaviour, this violence, and then decry an unlawful killing as murder? To the leaders of the African community in Tyrrelstown – stand up and be honest with the authorities and take a step back from your racist perspective lest it cloud your judgement in this matter.
RIP the deceased, you did not deserve to die.
That sounds like bullshit to me, Mr. Duffy. Or do you have any evidence for your claim?
No matter what the wrongs and rights are he didn’t die last February – if this is wrong in the reporting what else is?
Andrea, it says he was killed last friday (i.e. Good Friday), not last february.
I’m all for anti-racism but this seems like jumping the gun, giving that the motivation for the attack is unknown. Twelve years living in Dublin taught me that random violence is a frightening reality, and being in the wrong place at the wrong time is justification enough for a stabbing in some areas. And don’t forget the “disrespect issues”.
I do think it is great that the community is taking the opportunity to take a stand against violence, but the tone of the bottom of the poster – inviting “political groups” to “bring banners and posters” – is sinister.
What a tragedy, the pointless murder of a young man – I do hope that certain “political groups” will resist the urge to take advantage of Toyosi’s death for their own publicity.
“Sinister”?
Don’t be silly.
subtle nuance missed.
But, the SWP are both sinister and silly.
What was either subtle or nuance about your nasty little McCarthyite smear?
>>>the SWP are both sinister and silly.
Aithníonn ciaróg is ciaróg eile.
Though mind you, you’re too silly to be sinister.
I am left-handed
No, you’re gauche. But not in the cool Paris ’68 way.
Ah, Tim’s alright. Don’t agree that they’re sinister though.
So it should have been ‘aithnionn ciatog ciatog eile?
>>>So it should have been ‘aithnionn ciatog ciatog eile?
OK, I think we’re done here.
I’m just back from the march. I saw nothing ‘sinister’ and no attempts by any political groups to make capital from this tragedy; the speakers at the Garden of Remembrance made some very good points about the need to make sure the current crisis doesn’t spark a greater wave of anti-immigrant (I mean greater than the one we’ve had since this current period of immigration began).
All in all, it was an appropriately dignified, peaceful and largely good-humoured event.
Mr. Duffy,
Congratulations on being the only person who has the balls to speak the truth. Every weekend in this country young people are stabbed, and these stories DONT EVEN HIT THE NEWS. Why should a person of a different skin colour be made so special? The Nigerian community are ALWAYS the first to play the racist card-if you think we’re racist here then wh not go back to Lagos? Or are you still all pretending to be running from your ”tortured” country?! No, didn’t think so- The Welfare is too good here, eh?
Regards, Minnie Mouse.
“Every weekend in this country young people are stabbed, and these stories DONT EVEN HIT THE NEWS. Why should a person of a different skin colour be made so special? ”
Well the story’s a little bit more than youth stabbed, seeing as he’s dead. But I suppose it would have been hard to notice that little detail while you were typing out your comment with your forehead.
*thump* *thump* M *thump* R *thump* SPACE *thump* D *thump* U *thump* F *thump* D “ahh shit’” *thump* BACKSPACE *thump* F …..
So, we’ve got an Andrea who can’t read, and a Minnie who can only type with poor mistreated forehead. Pretty soon we’ll have the whole set!
It’s definitely a growing collection Dr. X. And not a pretty one.
For Minnie Mouse,
Don’t think that if you’ve lived all your entire life and still living in Welfare, every Nigerian or foreigner who live in this country is on Welfare like YOU. Example, I am not an Irish born and I’ve lived in this country for more than 17 years and I’ve paid my taxes all the time for YOU particularly and YOUR FAMILY. What would you say about that? Only ignorant people like YOU can say such things. Don’t forget that Irish people are everywhere in the world (Read MATTHEW 7: 1-5 ). Think before you open your big mouth about going back to Lagos. At least you should say something like what can be done to stop this stabbing issues in the country.
From the Irish Examiner, April 03, 2010:
Racism probe after teenager stabbed to death
Saturday, April 03, 2010 – 06:46 PM
A teenage boy stabbed to death may have been attacked following a row sparked by racist jibes, it was disclosed tonight.
Toyosi Shittabey, 15, was taken to hospital after the attack in Tyrrelstown, north-west Dublin, shortly after 7pm yesterday but died a short time later.
Two brothers, aged in their 20s and 30s, were arrested shortly after the killing which happened at Boulevard Mount Eustace.
The teenager was of Nigerian descent but had been living in Ireland for some years.
A garda spokesman said: “I don’t think anyone went out there to kill anyone. But things got out of hand and then someone was killed.
“This is certainly an incident which we are addressing from the point of view of is it racist based.”
http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/racism-probe-after-teenager-stabbed-to-death-452589.html
I’m not sure if it’s an amazingly good idea to be debating what will presumably go to trial here, but since it’s started, it might be worth noting, by those who doubt whether race was a factor in this, that one of those arrested has previous in this regard:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/four-charged-with-hatred-in-racist-attack-on-father-son-345834.html
You can join the dots yourselves.
for those who have doubted if it was a racist attack or not,
Here is the answer
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/four-charged-with-hatred-in-racist-attack-on-father-son-345834.html
Debating whether it was a racist attack or not is fairly pointless. How is murder “worse” because they used hateful language while doing it? The previous incident you refer to bothers me in that they were charged with “hatred” – I mean, what, is that some kind of thought-crime? Shouldn’t they just have been charged with assault with a deadly weapon etc?
Someone remarked to me recently that these hate-crime laws exist because we have to show that we are taking these things seriously, but what is more serious than stabbing someone through the heart with a knife? Does the motivation actually matter?
The same argument could be made about laws that prohibit discrimination in employment (it’s already illegal to sack someone from their job without cause, so why the additional penalties for sacking someone because of their race?). But it rarely is.
It is absolutely not pointless to debate whether it was a racist attack or not, you twit (I am leaving aside the matter of it being sub judice, which may mean that this entire thread should be deleted). Without gathering data on motivation behind these crimes, we will not be able interpret the reality around us. Without interpreting that reality we will not be able to engage with that reality. Of course you may have little or no interest in engaging with that reality. . . but ask yourself this; would the peace (however compromised) we have in the North have been possible without people there trying to understand what was happening in their society (including the motivations behind sectarian murders) in order to find some way out of that mess?
If we respond to racism and racist violence in this society with a policy of masterly inactivity and benign indifference, which is what your silly rhetorical question implies, then a nasty stain on contemporary Irish society will spread into an even nastier form.
I think that in essence you’re correct Dr. X. A murder (and let’s keep this as you say hypothetical and any further breaches of that will be deleted) per se isn’t more or less serious, it’s equally serious. But the matter of motivation is of great significance because that sheds light not merely on the act of murder but also means to deal with and combat the circumstances within which such murders occur.
There are two aspects to a hate crime.
From a legal point of view, in terms of crime and sentencing it should not in my opinion add any extra years to a prison term. That’s what I’m saying – the supposed hatred does not exacerbate the crime.
But from a sociological point of view, of course it matters in what context the crime arises and that is where the facts of a given case are important, once they are revealed. If ethnic tensions are boiling over in a certain area then that is a major cause for concern; and in Ireland we are used to there being a separate category for “political” murders.
Let’s respond to this crime with all the seriousness it deserves. SoS above at 9 posts a link, if these are same people then we have a couple of psychos going round targeting people of a certain colour. That’s one problem, and if the hypothetical crime is NOT racially motivated, sub judice as you say, then there is an entirely different problem. The use of racial slurs is not evidence of a racially motivated crime
in any case.
Actually, accepting the crime as “racist” without any investigation, which has been the case it seems, is actually ignoring what might be a completely different issue. Whose agenda is served by declaring the murder “racist”? possibly those who don’t want to be forced to admit that economic realities may play a part in the upsurge in violence in deprived areas. (I haven’t been to Tyrellstown so may be on the wrong track there.)
So has the op about the deceased being earlier involved in a violent attack been confirmed, or is this just bs.
This is the context in which this killing occurred:
“Over half of all black Africans living here have experienced racism or abuse in recent months”
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/ireland-of-the-welcomes-is-a-myth-2133538.html
Tim,
The hatred does exacerbate the crime. A racially motivated or sectarian attack does not merely wish to harm the direct victim but also to intimidate and harry all other who share a racial or confessional identity with the victim. So yes, it is worse.
Yes, that’s something I was thinking about since Tim made that point. It’s the factor that it is something intrinsic (albeit logically irrelevant) that leads to the crime and that the same same intrinsic (albeit irrelevant) aspect is mapped onto all others who share that racial or confessional identity. The victim cannot change that, the perpetrator cannot see beyond that. And that does make it worse.
It’s impossible to disagree with that point. But, for those who believe in equality before the law, does it not unsettle you in the least bit that punishment for a crime might vary depending on the identity of the victim, rather that the brutality of the crime?
Although, given the huge disparities in sentencing anyway, my question is probably irrelevant.
Surely the variance in punishment is the case of hate crimes isn’t based as much on the identity of the victim, as the motivation of the attacker, no?
Well if you kill me because I slept with your wife, then that aspect of my identity – the ‘man who slept with Tim’s wife’ – is critical, and may actually be cause for mitigation in your case: people – even, maybe especially, Mr. Justice Barry White – will understand why you did what you did.
Whereas if you kill me simply because I’m Catholic/ Protestant/ Black/ Chinese, then the opposite is the case: that aspect of my identity will not appear to any rational judge as offering any reason whatsoever for your attack, and therefore what you did will appear worse.
I’d say in most murder cases, the identity of the victim and her/his relationship to the accused is pretty crucial when it comes to judgment and sentencing.