Meanwhile back at the Seanad...

Ah, another week of fun and frolics. What does the second chamber of our bicameral legislature offer us? Well, one Senator is very certain he knows what’s going on in Irish political polling and the masterminds behind the current chaos in our political parties of the centre right and if you want to know about that scroll right to the end.

Another, a friend of the Cedar Lounge Revolution, is attacked outside Leinster House while another unlikely individual calls for stimulus…

Let us start with an outline of the financial crisis…

Senator Dan Boyle: The House would be served well by having a debate on the draft terms of reference for the commission of inquiry into the banking crisis. The Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service has received the draft terms of reference. Some Members of this House are members of that committee. A wider debate would help. However, I caution against the belief that all the questions can be answered by the commission and that all the ills can be cured. I am confident the role of the Department of Finance will be investigated. The questions that remain concern how it is to be investigated and how the findings will be acted upon.

I worry slightly that we are seeing a repetition of the debate that accompanied the introduction of the reports that Messrs Regling and Watson and the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Honohan, were asked to compile. We heard the same arguments about their terms of reference, namely, that they were not wide enough, and about the likelihood of their not revealing anything. I ask people to have faith in the process. Two excellent reports have been released and they will inform how a commission of inquiry will work. I am happy with how the process has worked to date and I am confident it will work itself through.

With regard to Anglo Irish Bank which we must debate on an ongoing basis, people seem to believe there was an approach that would have resulted in zero cost to the State. The fact is that it was licensed and regulated badly by the State and the responsibility has fallen on the State to determine how the cost can be minimised. The alternative cost figure, as outlined at yesterday’s meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, pertained to an immediate wind-down of the bank, as advocated by Senator Bacik. This would cost the State €40 billion.

Senator Ivana Bacik: An orderly wind-down.

Senator Dan Boyle: These are the figures we must keep in mind.

Senator David Norris: From where did the Senator get the figures?

Senator Dan Boyle: It is a simple mathematical sum involving selling one’s assets, paying off one’s debtors and how much it will cost the State. It is a simple balance sheet exercise.

Senator David Norris: Why pay off the debtors, these bondholders, if one does not have to?

A good question… to which the response is…

An Cathaoirleach: There should be no interruptions.

Senator Dan Boyle: Finally, with regard to the debate this House will soon have on the Civil Partnership Bill, I have no difficulty with any citizen or group of citizens giving their opinion on what should be in the Bill, but the question of constitutionality is a matter for the courts. The question of whether this legislation is approved is a matter for this House and the Lower House. It will be on Report Stage in the Dáil in the next week and should be available for our consideration before the summer recess. I look forward to the debate on it.

Moving on.

Senator David Norris: I welcome the fact that a number of my colleagues have spoken out about the intervention of the bishops. I deplore it. They are, of course, entitled to their view and to express it publicly but to attempt once again nakedly to intervene in the political process is deplorable. I was one of the founders of the Southern Ireland Civil Rights Association in 1970 which campaigned for full civil and human rights for Roman Catholics and Nationalists in Northern Ireland, particularly in employment and housing. It is really regrettable that their lordships should seek to intervene in this way. This morning I wrote to Cardinal Brady and offered to engage in a public debate with him. I have sent a copy of the letter to the director general of RTE. If the bishops want a public debate, I will be happy to give them one and ventilate all the issues involved. Can the Leader give us a clear timetable for this legislation? There appears to be some confusion between the Government parties.

Second, will the Leader ask his colleague, Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú to withdraw the disgraceful remarks he made about ten days ago in the House in which he compared the granting of civil and human rights to gay people in this country to the imposition of the penal laws? That was a most atrocious, grotesque and deliberate perversion of the truth. I say this with some authority. There was a Roman Catholic bishop in my family during the penal period and my mother’s family suffered considerably. It is an outrage that anybody should attempt to use that analogy.

Yesterday, an attempt was made to interview me about Bloomsday outside the gates to this House. A group of the storm troopers barged into the photograph and attempted to shout me down. I nearly lost my eye due to one of their placards——

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: They were only taking advantage.

Senator David Norris: Would the Senator mind taking this a little seriously?

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: They were only trying to get on the——

An Cathaoirleach: There must be no interruptions.

Senator David Norris: I am talking about human rights and there is no need to be so bloody smug about it.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris should speak on matters on the Order of Business.

Senator David Norris: They attempted in every way to prevent me having a say. They were also extremely personally abusive to me. If you, Senator Keaveney, find this entertaining, you are a lesser human being than I thought you were.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: The Senator is not the only one who nearly had his eye gouged out there yesterday. There is a great deal of human rights abuses for people coming into the House.

An Cathaoirleach: I ask Senator Keaveney to make a contribution on the Order of Business.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I will start by telling Senator Norris that he was not the only one who nearly lost an eye yesterday.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is not to talk across the floor to anybody. That is out of order. It is questions to the Leader on the Order of Business.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I wish to clarify that I was not being smug about anything. I was just pointing out that other people nearly lost their eyes as a result of abuse when trying to get into the House yesterday.

An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: It was unacceptable behaviour.

This rumbled on…

Senator Rónán Mullen: I welcome the easing of the blockade of Gaza. It is a tragedy that lives were lost in the run-up to this change of policy on the part of the Israeli Government. I am not naive enough to believe everyone in the flotilla was an honest broker, but I believe strongly that peaceful protestors with a human rights agenda deserve the full protection of national and international law. While I welcome this news, I lament the preceding tragedy.

I listened with a wry sense of amusement to various contributions on the statement of the Catholic bishops on the civil partnerships legislation. I was surprised that no one had referred to the four church leaders in Northern Ireland seeking to meet the main banks——

Senator Eoghan Harris: Hear, hear.

Senator Rónán Mullen: ——the lending policies of which, the leaders claim, are putting small and medium-sized businesses and their employees at risk. Would Senators Bacik and Norris condemn this as inappropriate interference by church leaders in the running of our banks?

An Cathaoirleach: Please, do not comment. Questions to the Leader, please.

Senator Rónán Mullen: We need a new, more mature system of politics in which people in different areas of civil society are entitled to have their say. The Labour Party and——

Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. That is why I offered to debate the issue with Cardinal Brady. I hope he will take up my invitation, unlike the last couple of times when he did not even reply.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Mullen to continue without interruption.

Senator Rónán Mullen: I have also heard that Senator Norris blew the protestors yesterday a kiss, which was a more appropriate way to deal with objectors——

An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Senator Rónán Mullen: ——rather than losing one’s head in the Seanad and pretending to be upset when one was not upset at all.

Senator David Norris: On a point of order——

An Cathaoirleach: This carry-on is inappropriate on the Order of Business.

Senator Paudie Coffey: Please, respect the Chair.

Senator David Norris: On a point of order, I request that Senator Mullen withdraw his completely inaccurate statement. That did not occur yesterday.

Senator Rónán Mullen: I will check my sources, but my sources in this House are good.

Senator David Norris: Perhaps the Senator will identify them in the House, unlike the last time when he told a pack of lies.

An Cathaoirleach: I will call the next speaker.

Senator Rónán Mullen: In fairness, I was the one——

An Cathaoirleach: We are taking questions to the Leader on the Order of Business.

Senator Ivana Bacik: What does Senator Mullen’s intervention have to do with asking the Leader for a debate on anything?

An Cathaoirleach: I have ruled the matter out of order.

Senator Rónán Mullen: I wonder how many times Senator Bacik did not call for a debate in her interventions.

Senator David Norris: Does Senator Mullen consider this to be a mature, civilised and respectful debate?

An Cathaoirleach: I am calling the next speaker.

Senator Rónán Mullen: Please, may I ask the Leader a question? I am not responsible——

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator’s time is up.

Senator Rónán Mullen: I am not responsible for not asking the Leader a question. I have been stopped by other speakers.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has been calling for Members to interrupt him. We are taking questions to the Leader. If the Senator has a question, there will be no interruptions, but his time is up.

Senator Rónán Mullen: May I briefly ask the Leader the question I wanted to ask?

An Cathaoirleach: Quickly.

Senator Rónán Mullen: Does he agree that the Labour Party, as a party which, according to one opinion poll, now enjoys the largest portion of public support, would be better served by allowing people to call for a public debate instead of excluding them?

An Cathaoirleach: What is the question?

Senator Rónán Mullen: I ask the Leader for a debate on the issue of freedom of conscience which is relevant to the civil partnerships legislation.

Senator Ivana Bacik: On a point of order——

Senator Donie Cassidy: Senator Mullen is asking a question.

An Cathaoirleach: Labour Party policy is not relevant.

Senator Ivana Bacik: ——who is Senator Mullen accusing of——

Senator Rónán Mullen: It is the type of issue that should be debated in the Seanad.

An Cathaoirleach: I ask the Senator to resume his seat.

Senator Ivana Bacik: Who exactly is Senator Mullen suggesting the Labour Party is excluding from any debate?

An Cathaoirleach: No interruptions, please.

Senator David Norris: It is the usual smear.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: I thought the Fine Gael benches would be the most divided today but it looks like the Independent benches are the most divided.

That call for stimulus?

Senator Eoghan Harris: I support Senators Coffey and Buttimer in their call for a jobs stimulus programme. Members will be aware that by and large I have supported the Government all the way through. I am a great believer in the principle of join the army, wear the boots. I support its anti-recession policy.

A Senator: Senator Harris came over this side.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Harris took the shilling well.

Senator Eoghan Harris: I support the Government’s anti-recession policy. However, I put it to the Leader that, because there are internal problems in Fine Gael, it is no time for complacency on the part of the Government as to the extent of public shock on the news that Anglo Irish Bank is throwing away €22 billion. This is most important. It is what I call an iceberg situation. The Government has hit something like an iceberg on this one. It will not go away and it is connected to the wider question of job stimulus and banking behaviour. In that regard, I do not know — I am not an economist — whether we can let it go or whether we just must take the hit, but I do know that, politically, the public will require now a movement on job creation from the banks, especially for small businesses which have their backs against the wall. I strongly recommend that the Government looks at matters such as recourse mortgaging, as in the United States where one can sell one’s house and give the bank what one can after it is sold, whereas here one cannot as the bank holds the deeds and will not let one sell the house and therefore there is no market. The Government is not paralysed. It should take on board the need for a small persons’ and small business banking system and do whatever needs to be done politically, or else it will rue the day.

Indeed.

Here’s a question, this was the week that the Saville report was released. The response from some was intriguing.

Senator Eoghan Harris: If anything has eased the pain of the Troubles in the North, it is acts of empathy with the other side, walking in other people’s shoes. I remember, in particular, when Mr. Alex Maskey of Sinn Féin moved towards the Protestant community in regard to the First World War and how deeply and profoundly it affected him. I am somewhat concerned that in our tributes to Lord Saville and Mr. David Cameron we forget that those who died in Derry were not the only ones who died. Mr. Tommie Gorman who showed all the power, empathy and emotional intelligence he has shown all his life, including during the Troubles, reminded us last night of what had happened at Teebane, Whiterock, on Bloody Friday and in the La Mon restaurant bombing.

11 o’clock

I still remember the night I saw on the road the false teeth that belonged to a Protestant workman who was taken out of a van at Whiterock and gunned down. I ask Members to understand the feelings of the Protestant community when they look at what happened in Derry yesterday. It was a moving and wonderful occasion for the Nationalist people. However, everything is connected in this world — “only connect”, said Shakespeare — and the Protestant community must have felt left out in a way. It would not be good for Seanad Éireann to convey the feeling that we are unaware of or are insensitive to the other tradition and what it suffered.

There’s that, no question about it.

On a tangential point I’m also curious about which incident at Whiterock he refers to. I’ve searched for it online and been unable to find it. Does anyone have any light to shed on it? Is he confusing it with the Teebane massacre.

Meanwhile, who are the masterminds behind the recent political turmoil, and what, what motivates them?

Senator Terry Leyden: I welcome the decision by the Government of Israel to ease the blockade of the Gaza Strip, where 1.5 million people are in an open prison. In fact, it is very similar to a concentration camp. What is happening in that region is tragic. However, this is a tribute to the nine Turkish volunteers who sacrificed their lives on behalf of the 1.5 million people in Gaza and travelled on the flotilla with others, including people from Ireland. The decision is a step in the right direction. I appeal to Hamas not to resume sending missiles into southern Israel. They are provocative actions against a country which will respond, and not with an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That is the reaction of the Israeli Government to Hamas in the region. It is a step in the right direction and I commend Deputy Micheál Martin’s work in this regard.

It would be useful to have a debate on opinion polls and how they are compiled. I raise this with regard to section 59 of the Electoral Act 2000. As far as I recall, it was amended in this House. I believe last Friday’s opinion poll was manipulated in favour of the Labour Party against Fianna Fáil and, indeed, undermined Deputy Enda Kenny’s leadership of the Fine Gael Party. The Irish Times——

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate on it?

Senator Terry Leyden: It would be useful to discuss how opinion polls can be used to manipulate the outcome of a general election.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: You were doing it yourselves for long enough.

Senator Terry Leyden: There was a proposal to ban them for the week before general elections were held but this was defeated at that time. The Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll was flawed and flukey. Those concerned now admit that they will review the situation because Fianna Fáil’s position is far stronger than shown in that poll——

Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is less.

Senator Terry Leyden: ——and the Labour Party position is far less strong. It is grossly unfair. However, I am aware that the The Irish Times and its correspondents——

(Interruptions).

Senator Terry Leyden: ——are delighted to undermine the Government and Fine Gael. They are hoping to get a Labour Party led Government——

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made his point.

Senator Terry Leyden: ——but they will not achieve that.

(Interruptions).

The Irish Times, lobbying for a Labour government. With their reputation?

If only he were right…

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