Fine Gael: No need to speak Irish if you are responsible for the Gaeltacht July 9, 2010
Posted by Garibaldy in Fine Gael.trackback
Frank Feighan is an interesting choice for the new Fine Gael spokesperson for the Department for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. He feels it isn’t “too important” that someone in his post speaks Irish, but despite this he may learn a few lines to help him out in his new role. Big of him. Naturally, the Irish-speaking community is less than pleased at this insult. Nor is this the first time that someone with this portfolio has lacked Irish – Fianna Fáil have form here as well. So all of you experiencing the atavistic urge to shout “treaty-signing west Brit blueshirt bastards” restrain yourselves. It’s another example of the failures of the political elite in the south to protect and foster the Irish language that has been going on since the foundation of the state, all rhetoric to the contrary.
Whilt there is nothing in my life that could lead me to support anything this very sad excuse of a political of a party could do for the working people of Ireland. On the Irish Languge and based on my very short expierence in Clondalkin. The people who speak the Irish and like to think them the gaurdains on the Language are in fact doing more damged by their constant snobbery of us mere mortals who support all things to do with Irish Culture and GET involved in that area.
If we want the language to strive then we must make it socially freindly.
My kids going to the Gaelscoil and they love all things Irish becuase we believe in our household that Iirsh Culutre is the basic thrust of our nature.
Garibaldy, we live in a pluralistic modern republic (we wish!), one which nourishes all the citizens of the state, including those who don’t speak Irish. Is Brian Lenihan an economist? Is Eamon Ryan an electrical or electronics engineer? Why should he have to be able to speak Irish? With the immigration we’ve experienced over the past decade I think I read somewhere that there are now more Polish speakers in the state than Irish speakers. With the “community, equality” part of the portfolio should we be expecting him to speak Polish also?
Mary Harney and Brian Cowen both proved you don’t need to be healthy to be in charge of Health …
That doesn’t really fill me with confidence.
I think I’d agree with a lot of Paul’s comments about some of the problems facing people trying to get more people to speak Irish, and the need to make it more user-friendly. There are obviously problems with how the language is taught and, for want of a better word, marketed to people.
As for LATC’s point. Irish is the first language of the state after all, and it is the native language. In a world of increasing globalisation and the death of languages across the globe, there are extra good reasons for protecting and promoting it, over and beyond the fact that officially the state is already supposed to do so. So I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect those with responsibility for this area to speak Irish.
If I lived in the Gaeltacht, I’d expect that the minister responsible for the area could speak to me in the language I use there.
But the underlying broader point I suppose was about the haphazard and arrogant way that politics is conducted in this island.
Well I won’t disagree with you about the haphazard and arrogant nature of politics on this island of course.
On the Irish language issue, clearly there is a long history there and the demise of the language is very much wrapped up with the politics of what happened on the island over the past few hundred years. Having grown up in suburban Dublin, of parents whose family histories stretch back a fair few generations in the English speaking world of what was claimed by many as the second city of the Empire, I just don’t have any relationship with the language myself. In common with many people I’d go as far as saying that the way the Irish language, and aspects of Irish culture such as the GAA, roman catholicism, nationalism, were shoved down my throat by the education system would actually make me less than enthusiastic about the whole concept. I find it regressive. Clearly that’s a personal judgement on my behalf, and many people find great positives in Irish culture in its many forms, and that’s the other side of that particular coin.
I appreciate where you’re coming from, and I think there are lots of people who feel the same. Equally, I think there’s no need to associate the language with the other stuff you talk about, and that one of the things that people are trying to do is remove those links. So the image of the Irish-speaker as the severe middle aged pedant with the fáinne and the pioneers’ badge scowling at those with less than perfect Irish is out of date.
As for feeling connected to the language. I’m still of the belief that the person responsible for it at government or opposition level should have a feeling of connection to it given its unique nature.
Garibaldy, you’re right of course, the association of the language with those other aspects of Dev’s Ireland has been broken to a large extent. I think there’s a generational thing at play where people of a more youthful vintage than myself simply don’t see those linkages and in fact have a far healthier attitude towards the language.
I’d dispute your use of the word “unique” though, it’s a language like any other, and while it is certainly specific to parts of this island its far from being the only language in the world that’s on the wane. Like all things, languages come and they go, though there’s clearly an accelleration of the extinction rate since the age of imperialism gave birth to globalisation of culture.
Should the government minister or opposition spokeserson be able to speak it? I really don’t think its so important. Does the person forming policy on equality have to be a practising LGBT? It probably helps but in truth the advisers / civil servants in the dept. are the ones with the detailed expertise, the politician needs have the vision and ensure the policy agenda follows from that, but do they have to be a capable practitioner? Empathy is probably more important than linguistic skill.
The symbolism is perhaps important, but sometimes it’s good to look beyond symbolism.
Just to add, FG are a bunch of incompetents. I feel it necessary to say that, in case my views are interpreted as being apologist on their behalf.
It’s preposterous for all sorts of reasons for a major party to appoint a non-Irish speaker as its spokesperson on the Gaeltacht. It’s the language policy of the state that those whose first language is Irish – or anybody else indeed – should be entitled to conduct their business with the state through Irish. Consequently , public servants – including guards, nurses, county council administrators in places like Castlebar, Galway, Killarney, which have Gaeltacht hinterlands – are expected to be able to communicate in the language. Should we exempt the prospective Minister for the Gaeltacht?
Quite rightly, Gaeltacht organisations and Irish language bodies conduct their business through Irish. It would be farcical if they had to switch to English to facilitate the Minister for the Gaeltacht. It is understandable that an ambitious creature like Frank Feighan (Director, Boyle Ledford Park Oval Car Racing Club and Past President, Boyle Chamber of Commerce) would not turn down an invitation to join Enda’s front bench. But it’s a sad a reflection on the man that he doesn’t regard his lack of Irish as a serious deficiency in the circmstances – he won’t be learning it any time soon. It’s a worse reflection on political nous of the party leader – who has represented a Gaeltacht area in the Dail for nearly four decades – that he would make such an appointment. It’s not so much that most people care who’s FG spokesperson on Gaeltacht affairs; it’s that all of those who do care will feel insulted.
Yes, Enda for Tánaiste.
It is a fair point, LATC, that a person does not have to be a practitioner in the field in which he/she works in order to do the job effectively. A fresh perspective can be very useful and Feighan claims he is an activist.
On the other hand, you would expect the appointee to have knowledge in the area, something which Feighan admits (‘Hands up!’ he says) he lacks.
He said in an interview in today’s ‘Gaelscéal’ (www.gaelsceal.ie) that he isn’t up to date on the question of the redrawing of the Gaeltacht borders, an important issue for many years now.
He intends to visit the different Gaeltachtaí over the summer on a fact-finding mission, during which, English will be forced down the throats of those Irish language groups he meets with, no doubt.
It’s kind of embarrassing for him that he would take on the job at all. But Clive Sullish should know, he does intend to learn – he’s even going to buy a copy of ‘Irish is Fun’, RTÉ’s Turas Teanga being incomprehensible to him!
Feighan may well be the hard worker he claims to be, but his appointment to this role smacks of FG’s disregard for the Irish language. As an Irish speaker I find it sad.
imagine! forcing them to speak English for a few hours. Isn’t it the 17th century all over again. And, Clive, why would it be ‘farcical’?
Sure, there are no doubt still those gaelgoirs who think themselves the only ‘true’ and ‘pure’ Irelanders, but times have changed and they’re still wrong.
The funds that are wasted paying schools to teach kids Irish could be better spent doing something else. Maybe someone who doesn’t have an emotional/ideological attachment to that language will be less concerned with using taxpayers’ money to fund such a pet project and more likely to use it to fund projects that actually make people like the language?
There’s only one thing that’d make me learn Irish – Sharon Ní Bheoláin. And where was she when I was at school?
(ans: probably also at school…)
And what of the constitutional right to speak the language Tim if he becomes minister Tim? Should people have their rights removed because of the failings of others?
I don’t really see how it affects their rights – I’m sure translators are available.
His ministerial abilities are not compromised by his inability to speak the language. They may be compromised by other things, but I don’t know anything about the guy so I can’t say.
On a separate point, they may have a right to speak the language, but do they have a right to be understood?
sorry, I should clarify. the question is not rhetorical – do ‘they’ have a right specifically to speak Irish it to a particular person and have that person understand them and reply?
As I understand it, they have a right to have all their communications with the state in Irish. So where there is only one person doing the job in the state, I suppose the argument is whether a translator is sufficient.
It’s not so much a matter of constitutional rights, as what it says about the attitude of Fine Gael (or indeed Fianna Fáil) towards the constitution of the state, and the things they have committed themselves to, as well as to an important section of Irish society.
On a separate point, they may have a right to speak the language, but do they have a right to be understood?
Irish is the first language (it even takes precedence in interpretations of law, if put to it), so yes, it is important.
I would think that having a non-Irish-speaking minister for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs would be only one of many places where FF / FG fall short of the spirit of the constitution?
It’s a fair point LATC. But such an easy one to fix!
Iti sironic that the diaspora of the irish will keep Gaeilge alive by force of will…thank you Notre Dame and others. Also, it Australia and Canada. Ireland has suffered many isults and the Irish here there and everywhere the similar fates…pretect what is and always will of Irish heritage. Laguage, Belief, Customs, and throw off was was done by force. That is to live as a free person who knows himself. For me…my grandpa was turning back to the Irish roots…and wanted all the family to do the same. Have some pride in self and learn the language so that the history of the Irish does not become academic as the Latin.
Very interesting Stiofain. It’s perhaps telling that my grandfather, who died before I arrived on the scene, had to be taught Irish himself in the 1900s, indeed he met his future wife my grandmother while doing a course. My own father was fluent, but what amazed me was discovering that there was no tradition of the language in the family despite his proficiency and love of it.
Eoin O’Duffy infamously supported compulsory Irish in schools despite not being able to speak Irish himself, but I suspect that’s hardly a
FG-er Feighan would like to be compared to….
Not a lot of people know this (clearly), but Síle de Valera – another one-time Gaeltacht minister – doesn’t speak Irish either.
Perhaps it’s because nobody could believe it, that she got away with it?
I alluded to her in the opening piece EWI, although perhaps I ought to have been more blatant. You are right that not a lot of people know that.
You are right that not a lot of people know that.
I mean – a De Valera who doesn’t speak Irish… people would think you were pulling their leg.
(Like the person who thought I was making it up when I told her that Ian Paisley was NI’s First Minister).
A leading french intellectual has said the french should give up and learn english.
God, a world of people speaking basic American english.
Moi, a believer in diversity. I am 62, for all their faults? the christian bros. never made me play GAA.
Tim Johnston: “Mary Harney and Brian Cowen both proved you don’t need to be healthy to be in charge of Health …”
And Michael McDowell proved you can believe that inequality is necessary for the proper functioning of society and be in charge of equality.
The sad part of this is that Frank admits that he has ‘gaeilge an-teoranta’ (very limited) – since he was born in Boyle, I assume he wasn’t exempt from learning Irish in school, which means he must have had the 14 odd years of intensive tuition in it that we all had: and yet, like many others, he can’t understand more than a few words.
Which, in a way, is not really his problem – how is it that a subject can be taught so incredibly badly?
JIm you were lucky.Tthe rest of the people they mostly beat the shite out of them or buggered them
¨°Which, in a way, is not really his problem – how is it that a subject can be taught so incredibly badly?°
I would say the same about many subjects. Language teaching in many countries is crap. Rote learning for everything. Also look at the number of maths teachers with no maths qualification.
We need to preserve diversity.
agree with Jim Irish guarantees some kind of diversity in a world increasingly abused by pidgin business English.The ideal school should create students who leave school open to more learning and yearning to acquire more knowledge.The exact opposite seems to happen.This”ideal” school would avoid the endless drivel we hear from business leaders about what kind of schools we need.It would also avoid those educational fads like “we should all learn “Chinese” or “teach kids how to drive”.Is anybody here distressed that a US multinational such as Intel can amost set the agenda for Maths in secondary schools!On my ideal school I don’t know how to set it up but homeschooling or Summerhill might be a way to it.
I think one of the problems with the teaching of Irish is that from junior infants it is taught as if it were your first language, that the schooling is building formal rules, spelling, increasingly sophisticated vocabulary, etc.. onto a rudimentary, 4-year-old’s linguistic framework that they have been developing at home.
I have to disagree on Intel or any major empmoyer having an input. It should not be the only one. But I welcome the challenge to the complacency which infects our system;. It is flawed.
I don’t know Jim if letting Intel or”any major employer” have an input is a positve development.I think it’s putting the cart before the horse and the ideal should be school-leavers that still want to learn and this is not happening.This much vaunted green-knowledge economy would thrive on such school-leavers and not on the needs/wants of an incredibly rich multinational.Apart from the ethical issues it smacks of short termism, in 20 years’ time our economy will be snookered because no one speaks Chinese or in 50 years’ time using some new invention will be a requirement even though it hasn’t been even thought up of yet.
the music industry here must be a huge generator of income and its success probably has very little or nothing to do with schools maybe there’s something to be learned from that?
In regard to teaching a lot of the problem is with the teachers a lof of them just can’t teach. They all just be re-tested every three years. It is very difficult to get rid of a teacher.
Inel/Hp have both voiced their opinions on what they think is needed
they particulary refer to the teaching of maths and science, but we know that the teachers a lot of them don’t have the skills to teach these subjects. THEY ARE JUST NOT CAPABLE.
Imagine a child in the classroom and is silent, but their mind is racing with ideas, yet acamdically they can’t reach out, but their creative side is not nurtured along , because there is 30-35 in the classroom
and a lot of the children, their parents don’t give a fuck. They leave the child in school and they think that is it, their job is done. and then the child that is creative be it sport, arts,music whatever is not noticed, the child with the problem is noticied. The whole teaching system is so wrong. But take the kids being taught in Blackrock or some well heeled area they have the resources, in Clondalkin you don’t.
Are you not coming close to blaming the teachers for failing to overcome the bad attitudes of some parents they are not responsible for and can do nothing about in your last paragraph Paul?
“Sure, there are no doubt still those gaelgoirs who think themselves the only ‘true’ and ‘pure’ Irelanders, but times have changed and they’re still wrong.”
Tim, living in Donegal I know a lot of gaelgoirs and none of them consider themselves to be ‘more’ Irish than English speakers. Actually quite the opposite: one of the problems with the Irish language is that native speakers tend to be extremely ‘polite’ and automatically use English when in the company of English speakers. There was a stigma attached to it for a long time. For instance when my father was growing up, my grandparents spoke Irish among themselves but refused to speak any to him, even when he pleaded with him (my granny called it the ‘language of hunger’).
Garibaldy.The only people I blame are the Government , they make and decide policy on Education as a whole.Teachers are to blame but not for everything, but you can re-call being taught by a good Teacher how they inspire you. I had 2 goods Teachers one in Maths and the other in History,(The History teacher was my Father) and still today I love both subjects. We cannot over estimate th power of the Teacher,pay them as much as they like, but they must teach.not arse about.
I agree completely, Paul. The difference between a good and a bad teacher has long lasting effects. I recently wrote to my old English and Business teachers to thank them for being an inspiration, and would recommend doing so to anyone. They probably don’t hear it a lot.
theres a policy at the moment by the dept of education not to support new gael scoil in areas where there are already established schools, any type of school. up untill about a year ago there was a quota system with various critera etc, after a review this new policy was brought in, not exclusive to irish medium education also includes educate together etc both tend to be the leading alternatives for parents.
but would agree with FG honesty on this. whats the point of tocanistic gestures from politicians. there not prepared to support people on the basics.
Shane is right. I lived in the Aran Islands for a while and the people are no way chauvenistic about the teanga. But I do think the minister reponsible for the issue should have that basic skill. And if, as someone remarked, he did the usual 14 years in school here and has not enough foundation to get up to scratch fast, does it reflect on his basic intelligence?
But then if he had any of that commodity would he be in FG?