Commemorative Plaque to OIRA fallen to be unveiled… August 9, 2010
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Thanks to the person who forwarded us this.
On Sunday 15th August at 1pm, there will be an unveiling of the first ever Commemorative Plaque to our comrades and friends who died as members of The Official I.R.A.
They gave their lives in the pursuit of the 32 County Socialist Republic we continue to strive for. While we accept that the memory of these brave people belongs firstly to their families. We believe it is our duty as their comrades to show our continued loyalty to their memory.
Therefore we are erecting this small memorial in their honour. This is a non party political event, therefore all are welcome.
There will be a short ceremony and oration by veteran republican Mick Ryan, a former member of the I.R.A. G.H.Q. staff.
The unveiling will take place at McPeakes on the corner of Springfield /Falls Rd.
The unveiling will be followed by a social event in the Fort Bar lounge.
Some newly discovered film of the Wolfe Tone Commemorations at Bodenstown in 1969 and 1970 will be shown at this event.
Slan go Foil Comrades
Sean Mc Connell (Chairman) Jim Scullion (Committee)
Bap O’Neill (Committee) Denis Mc Cann (Committee)
Sean O’Hare (Committee)
It will be interesting to see if this draws a “mixed” crowd.
I think/hope it will, given the outbreak of ecumenism at the TLR launch.
Does anyone know why this has happened now rather than earlier?
Time passing? Coming to terms with historical legacies? Very good question Ramzi and one I think that cuts to the heart of the situation we all find ourselves in now.
Curious about who’s organising it. Most of the names at the bottom don’t ring a bell though I would imagine there are contributors who would be more familiar with them. It’s interesting (and very positive) that the plaque is being erected now, perhaps a result of the renewed interest in the officials over the last two years?
Denis McCann should ring a bell…
Yes I think you are right World. I also wonder if it perhaps represents the fact that the political wing has less to lose about such an association than in the past.
Generally speaking I think that’s true, but it’s not WP inspired AFAIK.
Can I go???
Do you want to?
This is a very nice thing to do. I will share this message with members of my family. I know that they will be interested. Will there be a full list of names associated with the commemoration or a general acknowledgement of all who were involved. There are at least seven or so of my relatives whose names would be on a list. But in any case, the recognition is as important as well.
I am deeply thankful to the organizers for planning this nonpartisan event.
P.S. As always, I am becoming more and more involved and educated (which means I sometimes fumble along the way). I am researching my uncle, Gearoid O’Sullivan. I will repeat my usual question – if anyone has any knowledge of him, stories to tell and such, please get in touch with me at jonihnj (at) aol.com. He was my grandfather’s first cousin and considered a hero in our family.
I’m sure someone who visits or comments here might be able to help with your research.
The political wing had never nothing to lose,they gave up being political a long time ago in the six,counties,name one project that benifiets the working class,they are involved in,in the 6 counties.As for down south they absconed our jumped ship for the euro,the Workers Party had all to gain and lost it,the troubles were not entirely to blame as thye situation in the south,was stable,but no ,power corroupted.I am glad Belfast and Northren socialist remember the fallen comrades that give their lives,for a socialist republic,they did not spout rebubliasim socialst policies they died for it,the irish labour party got to power on their dead graves.
Many true comments here. However, let us put aside the vitriol for this one occasion. This is to honour those who proved their worth and died for what they stood for. I will say that this applies to those who fell in the “feuds” as well, and those on the other side of those “feuds”. Tragic and needless deaths on all sides, yet all who died put their lives on the line for what they believed was right. They, as well as any others, died for Ireland. Let us learn the lesson not to do the Brits’ dirty work for them ever again.
Forgot to say, though I am far away, I heard that ORM is the basic organiser behind this effort. However, it is billed as a non-partisan event.
In so far as such a thing is possible, and in honour of brave men and women, let us hope it turns out to be so.
my old past fallen comrades being recognised at last. I applaud these men for carrying this out
It was a well attended and well organised event with an attendance of about three hundred. Seán Mac Connell chaired the occasion and the text of his address is below. Mick Ryan gave the oration which will hopefully appear in the blogosphere before long.
Welcome address by Seán Mc Connell at the unveiling of a plaque to Official IRA volunteers, Springfield road Belfast, 15 August 2010
Friends and Comrades welcome to this long over due event.
It is heartening to see such a large turn out.
Especially from the families of those being honoured today.
I myself feel honoured to have been asked to chair this event, in memory of our dead comrades and friends.
We are not the type of people to raise anyone to iconic status, nor do we wish to claim these esteemed fellow republicans for party political ends.
We definitely don’t want to return to or dwell in the days of the events we are commemorating today.
We simply want to remember and respect these comrades as ordinary people like ourselves, friends, who paid the ultimate price for their and our socialist beliefs.
For too long a time we were encouraged to neglect this, the most important aspect of our history. Judging by the reaction to today’s event their memory will no longer be neglected or exploited. I, like all here today am proud to have stood with these comrades, in the toughest of times, proud of what they done what we all done, to preserve the true Republicanism of Tone and the United Irishmen.
We their friends do not need a memorial to remember them, but that said, we want the wider community and future generations to realise the sacrifice they made for the betterment of the community, their country and humanity in general. The dreams and hopes they had for a better world for all. Beliefs that were so strong that they sacrificed their lives for them.
That’s our history and we are proud of it.
Although progress has been made lately to record the history of Official Republicanism and we appreciate the efforts made in that area. Our own neglect of this issue has only assisted those who would airbrush the Official IRA and their activities from the history books. It is our duty to make sure the history of that proud organisation is not lost to our children and grandchildren. So I ask all here today, who are proud to have been a part of that history, to ask themselves how should the Official IRA be remembered and recorded, and what part each of us should play in that effort. How can that be organised and implemented.
Lets not go from here today and leave that to others and then complain that it has not been done, or not done properly. Let us all play our part, as we done in the past with our comrades being remembered here and in our hearts today.
Well that’s enough from me, time to introduce if he needs any introduction our main speaker of the day, my very good friend and comrade Mick Ryan.
Any chance of an outline of Mick Ryan’s words?
The basic message from Mick’s oration was that the GFA though imperfect was accepted by the majority of people on the island, therefore any justification for continued military action in pursuit of political objectives was gone. he pointed out that many would be surprised at him saying that.
Watching the film of Bodenstown afterwards was a strange affair which brought out mixed emotions in many, recognition of faces many of whom have passed away but also the loss of the huge potential that was there. Hopefully this will become widely available.
Mick’s oration should be available over the coming days.
“It is our duty to make sure the history of that proud organisation is not lost to our children and grandchildren. So I ask all here today, who are proud to have been a part of that history, to ask themselves how should the Official IRA be remembered and recorded, and what part each of us should play in that effort. How can that be organised and implemented”.
I fully agree with Sean here and this echoes a point I have been making to many people for years. It is not about people recording it for themselves but to put anoher narative there for our children and their children. The “Falls Curfew” book currently available from the WP Head Office for the nominal sum of €3.00 is an important and welcome beginning for this process. ( WBS perhaps you could stick the pdf in here?).
A few of us old Stickies from Dublin travelled up for the event . It was great to meet old friends who had stayed loyal to the cause of non-sectarianism and class politics. Some of the organisers of the event are active in cross community conflict resolution. May of those who particpated suffered long terms of imprisonment as members of the Official IRA while their then leaders would not ackowledge their existance. I suppose that why there was only one person present who is curently a member of the Workers Party.
It was a great event and as we Sticks use to say ‘heres to the lads who dunnit’
As the event was organised by the ORM Fergus, you could hardly expect support from the Workers Party. The ORMs whose raison d’etre seems to be the vilification of the Workers Party at every twist and turn. The Workers Party honours its fallen and dead comrades every Easter at Milltown cemetery as it has done for 40 years, with dignity and decorum.
You, Fergus are very welcome to join us in honouring our dead in the right and fitting place, the Republican Socialist plot, Milltown.
I have read much ORM material but while I know many of them feel bitter I never saw any vilification of the WP or anyone else. most of their stuff which i have seen is about ex-prisoners from all sides in the conflict.
Thanks for the invite but I gave up marching to graveyards a long time ago. However I might go up to glasnevin next month to honour my old comrade Eamonn Smullen who is twenty years dead this year and who knew very well how the workers party honours its heroes.
“we have no political prisoner”
Who said that again?
I’ve only read the ORM stuff on this site but didnt see any vitriol…. a couple of remarks which could have been interpreted as critical I suppose….
Marxman said “The Workers Party honours its fallen and dead comrades every Easter”.
Many people now aligned to the ORM spent a good 30 years plus walking up the road to Milltown with you to remember their fallen and dead. They like many in the Workers Party contributed to making it possible to march up the Falls for the last 40 years.
There should be some attempt made by both organisations at the very least to recognise their past association, after all, to most outside you are all still seen as ‘stickies’.
I know very little about the ORM as they appear to be the worst publicised group in Irish History! I will say this much…fair play to them for the effort on the Memorial Plaque. Such physical memorials have always been a tradition, and an important method of preserving history. That said, I agree with Marxman that the most important way to honour those who fell is the living memorial of Comrades proudly marching together for all the world to see. This shows that “La lucha continua”. Beir bua,
can i ask how come its took the sticks so long to remember there fallen volunteers, for years they failed to say that had a army ie THE OIRA.
No comment from the neo-stick Garibaldy?
Don’t be childish
Seconded.
The irony of a thread devoted to a commemorative plaque to OIRA fallen having people arrive to take the odd pop here and there is clearly lost on some.
Yes, there are differences and distinctions in emphasis and approach. But this is no time and place to be dragging extraneous issues into something which one would hope all would broadly speaking agree on.
You would have hoped that this thread could have been left without misbehaviour, out of respect for those comemmorated on the plaque whatever your attitude to the people responsible for erecting it. I’m kind of loath to contribute for that reason, but seeing as the thread has gone the way it has, here are some points in response to what has been said.
I think the most important points that need to be made already have been made. As Marxman pointed out, the Easter commemorations are regarded as encompassing all those who not only gave their lives to build a democratic, secular, socialist republic on the island of Ireland, but all those who lived for it as well, and who dedicated their lives to building The Workers’ Party, and have died in more recent times. The declared aim of the Republican Movement under Goulding and Mac Giolla from the 1960s was to transform itself politcally and organisationally into a force capable of building a different and better society. It was clear from the start that this meant transforming Sinn Féin into a party of and for the working class. There was no room for ambiguity as to what the organisational vision was after Garland’s Bodenstown speech of 1972 made it clear it was the revolutionary party – not the first time this point had been made by him or other leading members. Volunteers played their part, but so to did those involved in other areas like newspapers, advice work, leafleting etc as well as supporters, and families. Some of them gave their lives too. We remember them all at the Easter commemorations.
Secondly, Seoirse (who is not a WP member or supporter AFAIK) makes the point that the best way of remembering the sacrifices of those who gave their lives to build socialism is through an active presence. The Workers’ Party is for us a living mounument to those who have gone. Building it, preserving it against those who would have had it abandon its principles of anti-sectarianism and working-class unity, and now rebuilding it and promoting class politics north and south. That is for us the best way to commemorate those who have died and lived for the vision of a socialist Ireland.
As for the question of the organisers of this event. Read between the lines of the comments from the chair and you can see who is being criticised. The remark about party political ends, the remark that their memory will be no longer neglected or exploited. As I’ve just noted, the declared aim of the Movement of which they were members was to build a revolutionary socialist political party as the means to building socialism in Ireland, work that continued at all times. It seems to me to make no sense to try and isolate their deaths from this fact, to depoliticise them. As for their memories being neglected or exploited – which is it? It cannot be both. This is incoherent to say the least.
Seoirse notes the lack of a public presence for the organisers of this event. How one builds socialism, or indeed carries out any form of political struggle, without a public face I’m not really sure. Meetings between ex-prisoners, while potentially useful for building understanding among small groups, aren’t really the type of political agitation that the Movement turned to in the 1960s, and that The WP’s successes were built on in the years that followed. It has been commented on here before that there isn’t even a website. There is however one website created by some of the people associated with organising this event. Here is a link
http://connaughtrangers.blogspot.com/
It is a commemorative website alright. A commemorative website for people who fought in the imperialist First World War, a war about the exploitation of the peoples of Africa and Asia. It seems the organisers possess the skills to operate a website, but haven’t seen fit to create one to build socialism or remember their comrades or whatever else they feel they were previously encouraged not to do before their own emergence a decade and a half ago.
By the way, here is the tone that The WP thinks that commemoration of those who died as a result of WWI should take
http://www.workerspartyireland.net/id489.html
Recording our history as we have been doing in things like the three recent pamphlets on aspects of the Movement such as the campaign for civil rights, the Ard Fheis of 1970 and the Falls Curfew is important, and that work continues, but the Party itself and the building of socialism is the ultimate monument. And the history that has to be written is not just the history of the volunteers, but the history of all those involved in building towards Peace, Work, Democracy, and Class Politics at whatever level and at whatever time.
I would suggest that if we are concerned with anti-sectarianism and class politics, then we don’t avoid party politics and the political process, but rather that we throw ourselves into them, as members of principled left parties. As I mentioned recently, it is not social democracy that is a necessity – just as in 1968 or 1988 ot 1998, it is socialism. We must keep issues like these at the forefront of our minds, and work to eradicate the issues that cause such injustices.
http://www.workerspartyireland.net/id497.html
That is the best way to build the vision of a better Ireland outlined under Goulding and Mac Giolla in the 1960s.
Word.
Cheers Budapestkick. Good to see someone got what I was driving at about the centrality of today’s political struggle as the best way to live up to the memory of those who’ve gone before us.
Amazing Garabaldy, in a thread about a plaque commemerating the Official IRA you write 910 words without once mentioning the Official Irish Republican Army.
As the ORM cannot have it both ways neither can the WP. You can’t claim all who died for what became the WP without recognising the nature of the struggle they were engaged in. Initially, the ORM were quiet vocal about the fact that the ‘Party’ (WP) didn’t do enough to recognise or commemorate volunteers of the OIRA, I think its good that this is changing but I wonder why? It wouldn’t have been considered in the 1990′s.
As for the link above, (Connaught Rangers) I agree it wouldn’t be the subject that I would be interested in as a socialist but from what I know it was a cross community effort, something I thought the WP were big into?
Finally, I hope the pamphlet on the Falls Curfew mentions the OIRA or else it will be a confusing read to say the least. Was or will the launch of the pamphlet a cross community event?
John,
Perhaps you missed the use of the word Volunteers several times?
And the terms the Republican Movement or just the Movement clearly incorporates the IRA, Sinn Féin/Republican Clubs, and the Fianna (and for the 1960s before its explusion/disbandment, Cumann na mBán). At least that’s how I’ve always understood it, and I think most other people would to. They appear several times too. I don’t think you can legitimately accuse me of ignoring the IRA in that comment. In fact, I would suggest, with respect, you have misconstrued it, and completely misunderstood the language used.
But it’s good you’ve raised this point. The concentration on the IRA, or the OIRA if you prefer, is elitism pure and simple, relegating the role played by those involved purely in political and agitational struggle to a supporting role. This is the very opposite of what was intended by the relaunch of the 1960s, and with what was happening in the period when a lot of those concerned lost their lives.
As for the commemorative project. The letter contained on that page specifically refers to nationalist historiography. Maybe it was part of a broader project – certainly it bears similarities to the work of a historian interested in this type of thing who did stuff on the Falls and Shankill. But I utterly reject attempts to reduce the imperialist slaughter of WWI to our local concerns, and the efforts of those to write about the Irishmen involved in a celebratory way.
As for the Falls pamphlet. In so far as there was a launch, it was at Bodenstown, which fell on the 40th anniversary of the Curfew. The NICRA pamphlet, on the other hand, was launched at the 2008 Northern Regional Conference, which as you know is an event that attracts people from a range of opinion.
But here is the concluding paragraph of the Falls pamphlet. It may or may not meet your approval.
“The volunteers who were active on the night of 3rd/4th July 1970 in withstanding that onslaught look back on their role, and on the role of their comrades who are no longer with us, with pride. Whether it was those who, like Joe McCann and Rose Curry, gave their lives in the course of their duties as members of the IRA; or those who, like Jim Sullivan and Jim Pollock, dedicated the rest of their lives to the transformation of the Republican Movement and the building of The Workers’ Party; they remember their dedication to building the unity of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter, and the establishment of a democratic, secular, socialist Republic. It is a task that continues today, in very different circumstances and with very different tactics to July 1970, but a task that requires the same commitment and dedication from those who wish to see the vision of Tone, Connolly and McMillen made reality.”
Something tells me that most of the supporters of this plaque are x members of the WP but still remain fixated with the WP.They need to move on,remember ,but move on.
“The concentration on the IRA, or the OIRA if you prefer, is elitism pure and simple, relegating the role played by those involved purely in political and agitational struggle to a supporting role”
I agree but there’s a difference in focussing exclusively on the IRA and recognising the EQUAL role that they played in getting the WP to where it is today. 40 years is a long time to get around to writing a pamphlet on an important event in the history of Irish republicanism.
I doubt if anyone gives a flying f**k what I think of the pamphlet (nor should they) but I am looking forward to reading it.
Hal is right we need to move on – the Irish revolutionary left has never been weaker and there are opportunities to expose the real nature of capitalism – we should be trying harder to reach an accomodation with all progressive forces leading to a new party of the working class that will end civil war politics for once and for all.
‘the Irish revolutionary left has never been weaker’
Were you not around in the 90s when, for example, the idea of a Trotskyist MEP would have seemed about as plausible as a gay pope?
Just as people dont know wether any of the previous popes were gay I dont think many know the MEP is a Trot,maby somebody should put a plaque up in celebration.
Miaow!
Yes, catty, falling far short of actual wit though.
http://rsmforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=4027&page=1#22922
Some discussion when the IRSP are more complmentary about the unveiling than the WP
Just to make clear what seems to have escaped some people’s attention. Not one WP member commented on this thread until after the event (unlike the people on that IRSP forum). And there was no negative comment made until after criticism of The WP, and only then in response to negative comments about The WP made here and in the chair’s remarks. Yet still The WP members who have commented here are somehow the bad guys.
One wonders how the people on the IRSP forum might have responded had there been criticism of them in the chair’s remarks. But then again they weren’t the only people criticised.
As a somewhat neutral voice, here’s my thoughts for what they’re worth.
On the one hand everything a party, particularly a revolutionary party does has an elitist tinge to it. For those who take up arms in a struggle that is something that demands even more than those who don’t.
On the other, the WP having been through that particular phase in its evolution could reasonably enough be wary about placing any great emphasis on the more military aspect. Volunteers were volunteers. The history had more than a small measure of genuine grief. more broadly there was a huge turning away in many quarters, and it wasn’t just a bourgeois thing, from violence (albeit not necessariliy from some aspects of the revolutionary party) in the 1980s.
I personally don’t have a problem with the plaque. I think it’s a good thing that there are commemorations, and particularly now when the situation has changed.
Since the matter was brought up, and by way of introduction, I was for many years a member of the broader Official Republican Movement (as the term was used then) I suppose technically I still am, as I never resigned. I just sort of drifted away out of confusion and despair over the DL defection. I would definitely class myself as a supporter of the WP, and indeed of any Party that is honestly trying to bring class politics to fuition in Ireland. Slan agus beir bua.
Apologies Seoirse if I got that wrong.
I too class myself as a supporter of the WP. but they really need to grow up and not be so sensitive. And the dead of the first World War are remembered by the entire european working class including most importantly from my point of view the protestant working class of ulster. If we can drop Leninist and nationalist nonsense about that war it could serve as a bridge of shared working class suffering and fair play to anyone including OIRM for working with unionists and loyalist to that end
As noted, there is no problem commemorating the dead of the First World War. There is a problem when the nature of that war itself is occluded in order to make some point about how great it was that catholics and protestants fought together. The question remains for what did they fight. In most places across Europe, WWI is remembered as a terrible and inhuman waste of lives. We should be no different. This is not nationalism. It is simple human decency. I presume the Leninist nonsense is to point out the fact that it was war about control of empire. I don’t think anyone has ever denied the imperial aspect to that war, Leninist or Imperialist, or anything in between. I would have no problem if the war was being remembered as a shared instance of working class suffering. But it isn’t.
I’m inclined to feel there are enough contemporary problems faced by workers in the north that we might be better concentrating on as a bridge to build unity and class consciousness.
You really can’t win. Respond to criticism and you’re being childish. Point out that you are being accused of two contradictory things and you are being childish. Point out that maybe after pretty much a decade and a half of independent existence, people might want to look at their own actions instead of those of other people, and you’re being childish. I could accept that charge had the instant response from WP members when this thread went up been to criticise those responsible. But it wasn’t. Other people brought the WP into this thread. Can’t blame WP members for standing up for their position thereafter.
@ Garibaldy as to Ted Tynan’s statement , one can see a confluence between WP views on the issue of WW1 and those of the B&ICO mutant, the Aubane Historical Society
one can see a confluence between WP views on the issue of WW1 and those of the B&ICO mutant, the Aubane Historical Society
So therefore ?!
Both are miles ahead of “de very grand Corkonians” who, a couple of years ago, held a tramps ball, town hall tonight, travesty as a commemoration of WW1.
Only the IPR group organised a protest against that “event”.
it did draw a moxed crowd . I was there and im an urp as was my da and several other urps and also some provo’s .has anyone any photo’s ?
squig
To John O’Neill- I would certainly recommend the WP Curfew pamphlet as it is excellent. In my view it should have been done 30 years ago and maybe some of the rewriting of the event could have been headed off. But it has been done now so fair play to the WP. How about an effort to write an account of the 1969 events from the view of those who were there?
I have given my views before on the partys own rewriting and as far as I’m concerned the ‘flight from republicanism’ that took place. The WP’s policies today are not those of the party crica 1985. Ted Tyan’s remarks on the imperialist war would have been denounced as sectarian nationalism back then. Just remember Garibaldy that we had prisoners in jail in Belfast and we denied they existed and denied that they were political. The provos are not the only rewriters.
where could i get a copy of that pamphlet matekts long memory ?
Pamphet available here
http://workerspartyireland.net/publications.html
i recall no reteat from republicanism in 1985. I do remember opposition to the armed nationalist rebellion that was calling itself republicanism at the time. Ted Tyan when he bewails the fact that in some quarters there is more interest in the Somme that the 1916 rising is right. Certainly the Protestants of Northern Ireland beileve the Somme (where many thousands of irishmen of all religions died) is far more relevant to them than the Sinn Fein rebellion which resulted in the partition of Ireland into two sectarian states. The men of the Royal Munster rifles were all volunteers who died for what they believed was right. they were not imperialists in fact most of them were Irish nationalist . Many of them beieved they were ensuring home rule for ireland and if the Sinn Fein rebellion had not happened they may well have been right . For the record eight of my family members fought in the rebellion and I have no problem in being proud of them and wearing my poppie on remembrance day
If that’s a white poppy Fergus, I couldn’t agree more.
However, we should remember that Redmond explicitly defined Home Rule as an imperial project. Judging by 1913, I think there’s a very good case to make that partition was decided in Ulster, and not in Dublin.
Regarding the putative retreat from republicanism. The sentiments described by Markets Long Memory may have been the feelings of some members, perhaps even some influential ones, but the idea that it would be the position of the Party is of course ludicrous. It would have been a very strange Easter commemoration that regarded opposition to WWI as an imperialist war as sectarian.
“The men of the Royal Munster rifles were all volunteers who died for what they believed was right. they were not imperialists in fact most of them were Irish nationalist”
What they believed is meaningless.It is what they were doing. Shooting German workers who were believing similar nonsense.If the Munsters were sent to India would they have refrained from shooting Indian Nationalists.
Partition was constructed before even the volunteers were formed. The Ulster Division was created to ensure it.
“armed nationalist rebellion ”
A section of the Nationalist masses responded to discrimination and oppression by a rebellion. Do you expect a rebellion to have fully conscious Republicanism and Socialism. People go into struggle against Imperialism and the status quo with partial consciousness of the root causes of their troubles.
“were all volunteers”
There was economic conscription. Enlist and your job will be waiting for you, don’t and you are sacked. This was certainly the case as soon as the initial euphoria wore off.
You Republicanism is of an abstract nature with little relationship to the actual struggles of the masses. Wolf Tone made an alliance with the defenders and did not shy away from them even though they had baggage of utopian ideas. And by engaging with them weaned many from sectarianism.
Most people who fight in wars good and bad (which are not wars of liberation) are basically good people used in most cases by their ruling classes.Even the poor saps who fought for the USA in Vietnam were not monsters. I would even say the same for most of the idiots enticed to a life of “adventure” in the BA, illustrated in the Irish Times recently.
What is this republicanism which has no relationship with the actual dynamics of struggle in Ireland. Is it the same struggle against the monarchy across the water, or maybe Sweden. Is it linked to any place or time.
Again I am reminded of Lenins remark about those who seek a pure class struggle where the workers (unblemished with impure thoughts) are lined up on one side and the Capitalists on the other.
The events of WWI seem to hold some strange spell over “Ulster Loyalists”. Why I am not exactly sure. If they were merely commemorating a section of their population who met untimely, needless, albeit brave, deaths I would have no problem with. The problem is they are celebrating the participation of their “heroes” in the greatest madness and folly of Imperialism in general and British Imperialism in particular. It is no different with people here in the USA. Each year I attend the Memorial Day events (like Remembrance Day) and hear the jingoism which passes for “patriotism” here. Each year the “rehabilitation” of the VietNam War progresses a little further. The present popular view is that “It wasn’t such a bad war after all…it is just too bad we did not win!” The madness continues unabated with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then I attend the smaller ceremonies carried out by the “Veterans for Peace”, sponsored by men and women who have learned the horrors and evils of such wars. Yes, they are a small voice now, but their presence gives me some hope.
Back on track to the memory of the living and dead Volunteers of the Official IRA. They, like the men and women of 1916, were not deluded by the siren call of Imperialism and Sectarianism. They spent their lives and efforts in a struggle against it. Was their “politcal conciousness” fully formed? Of course not. Nor is ours. We are constantly evolving in that regard. What is true for individuals is true for organisations. The WP, like every other party, is in a constant state of flux and evolution. It is up to us who belong to or support a particular party to see that that evolution takes the proper course. I am far away from events on the ground at present, so if I sound naieve please bear with me. I think the current situation is unique in that in the political vacumn which is developing there is a real opportunity for principled parties on the Left if only the bitterness of the past can be relegated to the past. What should be my role in this? I once long ago asked a leading member of the WP “What is the most important thing we can do for the Struggle in Ireland.” His answer was: “Work for change in the USA”. A daunting task, but words of advice which are as relevant today as they were then.
“I once long ago asked a leading member of the WP “What is the most important thing we can do for the Struggle in Ireland.” His answer was: “Work for change in the USA”. A daunting task, but words of advice which are as relevant today as they were then.”
Is it old age or something. I have no idea what this could mean. Traditional Stick line of stop Irish Americans supporting the Provos. A left line of opposing American Imperialism from within.
The cynic in me thinks perhaps it has something to do with the WPs business interests in the USA.
Cyncical indeed. First of all, there was never any hope of stopping Yanks from supporting the Provos. That was never in the cards. So called Irish-Americans, now mostly middle to upper class suburban dwellers, have a romanticised view of Ireland so unrealistic that even DeValera would be amazed at the “children dancing at a crossroads”, round tower and shamrocks dreams they harbour. Manys the assaults, both physical and verbal, my comrades and I endured at the hands of these cretins.
No, yer man was being very pragmatic. SInce US foreign policy largely drives world events one of the most important things that can be done in support of the International Working Class, or any segment thereof, is to work to change public opinion on those policies and help build solidarity among progressive groups here and abroad. Oh I know it all sounds so nicey-nicey liberal, especially in light that the embarassing debacle the election of Obama turned out to be, but have you better advice? That the US Government took it seriously is evidenced by my FBI files. They seemed most interested in the ties which the WP in Ireland and it’s branch here had with foreign and domestic progressive groups.
I must admit I am ignorant of any WP business interests in the US, other than a few pubs in the San Francisco area, which to the best of my knowledge have not been controlled by the WP for quite some time now. Or are you talking about such things as the WP support for the farcical DeLorean enterprise so many years ago?
I must admit I am ignorant of any WP business interests in the USA other than a few pubs in the San Francisco Bay Area, which as far as I know have not been owned by the Party for some time now.
Re the comment:- “I once long ago asked a leading member of the WP “What is the most important thing we can do for the Struggle in Ireland.” His answer was: “Work for change in the USA”.
Surely that is what any internationalist and socialist would say. The struggle of socialism is worldwide, therefore the best someone can do is work within the country that they live in. Remember, “Workers of the World Unite”. Also given that the US is the most powerful immperialist and capitalist force in the world and so often sees itself in the role of policeman of the world, changing the US itself would have a profound effect on the rest of the world.
Whatever assaults you claimed were as nothing compared to those endured by the Nationalist population.The WP here was most popular amongst what is called the chattering classes. The most important work for radicals in the USA is opposing imperialist interventions abroad and American support for such interventions. This is it does mostly in alliance with Britain.
The Official IRA volunteers mostly died at the hands of the BA. Especially I remember my friend Patricia McKay.
“The WP here was most popular amongst what is called the chattering classes.”
You know that’s not true, Jim. Or do you think that it was the “chattering classes” of Finglas and Ballyfermot who kept voting them into the Dail?
I am not sure what you are trying to say, Jim. It seems almost as though you are trying to provoke me into a row. I know for a fact that you are a good Internationalist and Republican Socialist. You know very well what the WP official I referred to meant. He was giving advice based on Connolly’s words: “The Socialist of another country is a fellow patriot. The Capitalist of my own country is a natural enemy.”
As for the assaults I mentioned, they were real and painful. However, I am not trying to “compare battle scars”. I was merely trying to illustrate that the average “Irish American” Provo supporter was an ignorant, violent and unreformable creature. They know NOTHING about Ireland, and NOTHING about the world. It is such types as they who are in the forefront of supporting the USA’s violent rampage throughout the world. Well, Adams and McGuinness will be seeing fewer and fewer of them Yankee dollars now. They will be going to the new darlings of the “CIRA” and “RIRA”. They, like all Yanks, like their wars thousands of miles away, so they can watch them from the comfort of their armchairs in front of the telly.
As for the “chattering classes”, I know what you mean. Most Left Wing parties attract a cadre of dilletante upper-class wannabes. I know the IRSP have their own such “groupies”. But whatever success the WP has had in the past was built by the blood, sweat and tears of it’s members. Hopefully it will be the same again, minus the blood.
I would humbly say that no one respects the memory of Tricia McKay, Joe McCann and the others more than I. It is a small thing, I know, but check out my channel on Youtube ( Eyeries1 ) to see some of the videos I have posted in their honour. Slan.
well JIm you would know my da, sean mcguigan , who was at one time oc of dcoy oirs . it’s about time the OIRA volunteers like patricia and rose curry where remembered it’s just a pity it took this long and that the workers party never even admitted that the OIRA existed !
squig
ps: why dont sone of you come over to :
http://rsmforum.proboards.com/index.cgi
for some debate on socilist politics
If the WP never admitted that “they” (the OIRA) existed, then why are Joe McCann, Patricia McKay and many others buried under a large tombstone which is headed “Erected by The Workers’ Party” with their IRA affiliations clearly engraved? As for later years it was viewed as politically expedient to conceal the continued existance of the Army ( a mistake in my humble opinion, by the way, but that was the reason, and we all know it.) The Volunteers of the time accepted it and faced the consequences with courage and resolution. The unfortunate truth is that just about an equal number of Official IRA Volunteers and supporters fell from gunfire by the Provos and INLA as did from British Army or Loyalist guns. The reverberations of these unfortunate and foolish feuds can still be felt, as evidenced by the posts on this thread. I have already clearly stated my opinion on the matter, but will do so again. ALL who fell in these feuds died for Ireland according to their own lights. That is why it is now more important than ever to learn from these past errors and get on with the business of trying to ressurrect Socialist Politics from the mire of Civil War and Partition ideologies under which they have been buried.
“The WP here was most popular amongst what is called the chattering classes.”
Being charitable Jim is confusing some admiration for the WP’s stance on Northern Ireland among the Peace Train types with the WP’s actual support. Ask any 1980s Shinner who they wanted to emulate in Finglas, Drimnagh and Crumlin, or the working class parts of Dun Laoghaire, it was the WP. I can’t remember the poll but there was some statistic that the WP had more voters in local authority housing in Dublin than everyone bar FF.
“ALL who fell in these feuds died for Ireland according to their own lights. That is why it is now more important than ever to learn from these past errors and get on with the business of trying to ressurrect Socialist Politics from the mire of Civil War and Partition ideologies under which they have been buried”
Could’nt agree more, this is the job we have to get on with now, by active on the ground and not by sitting at computers or in bars bitching about why someone else is not doing it. Everyone of us has a part to play in this project, lets get on with it.
My remark is about chattering classes is about the WP virtual monopoly of certain programmes in RTE and the carte blanche Harris had in many newspapers.I would guess that this is what was the basis of DL for the most part.
There does seem to be a denial that there was a retreat from Republicanism. Mick Ryan claims so to speak of an apostolic line of descent from 1916 with the Provos left out. ( in case anyone thinks this is peculiar to Republicanism, look at the family trees of the far left, equally if not more bizarre, sometimes it is like reading about the times when there were rival popes, with as little sense)Fergus seems to think that it was mostly wrong including 1916.I left in the same period as Costello, so naturally I would think the retreat began in 1973 or thereabouts.But on reflection it was over a much longer period. I feel that more importantly that the give and take necessary for democracy weakened and was destroyed by Stalinism.Most/maybe all of Tricia’s comrades left with the IRSP. As I have said before the IRSP was a tragedy and where it ended up with constant feuding to be honest saddens and to a degree baffles me. On a general note I feel that the attraction of militarism as a short cut ( which I think was a weakness of Costello) carries the danger that differences can be sorted out in a somewhat abrupt manner.Add in a bit of paranoia, encouraged by certain forces, and then duck. At least the far left have usually only keyboards and insults to throw at each other.
Looking forward. Yes, cooperation on lots of issues maybe even an election pact on a minimum program. Assessments on the way forward which would include a look backward. Not on who shot who and sterile details. But on the Provo campaign itself. In my opinion it led to a revived Stormont with a more efficient/organised successor to the SDLP and old nationalist party represented the minority, not in any way to a 32 county republic, socialist or not.
But it had the support of a section of the masses so it was not a Red Army elitist adventure of that type.
The IRSP, where and why did it go so wrong. Did the need for self defence put Costello in debt to uncontrollable gunmen.
A deeper question would be what is the national struggle now. Is it over, are we just a minor European Capitalist country like say Poland. Is the North still and issue and will it arise again or is this agreement, the end of Imperialism in Ireland.
There would be parallels with the minority struggles in the USA where some would say it is all class and race no longer counts.
I have (no surprise) a fairly worked out idea/s on teh above, but new generation poses questions and t he forms that things appear in seem to be different and as well changes occur all the time. Eg the role of the church is dramatically weakened compared to when I started.
A wide ranging, well written and thought provoking post, Jim. Where indeed does the Struggle go now, and what indeed is the meaning of a united Ireland in the context of a post-Soviet, EU dominated Europe?
Your assessment of the outcome of the Provisonals’ campaign, both in the short and long terms, is spot on (and I say this with all respect to the brave and dedicated Provisionals who paid the price). Well, I reckon these are all questions for another thread, as we seem to have strayed far from the original purpose of this one. But it has been fascinating, and a good exchange of opinions.
In closing I would say that those of us on the Left need to get our shite together in order to co-operate in some meaningful way or the problems of the past will just linger on and fester. Easier said than done, I know, but stranger things have happened as we have seen. I feel NOW IS THE TIME.
Finally, all honour to those who lived and died for the cause of a United Ireland controlled by the Irish People themselves, no matter what their particular affiliation. May they all rest in peace, and may their goals be realised.
are there any old veterans from the 70′S on this board ?
Yes I am Sean and yes I knew your Father well and your uncle Peter, that is if your family is from Ardoyne. Both good guys and excellent comrades.
yes marxman thats my family from Ardoyne who are you and ill tell my da?
sean
Sean, I don’t know if you use your real name on Cedar Lounge and various other sites because if you do or don’t your father would have the same name you use when you comment. For obvious reasons Sean I’m not going to put my name in the public domain on this site or any other site. While on this site people are generally convivial but other sites can be bear-pits where if they knew your real name you or your family could be targets for all sorts of attacks so if you don’t mind Sean I’ll desist.
I met Sean McGuigan about 1970/71 and through him his brother Peter. We bumped into each other at ceilithe in the Ard Scoil and events in the Falls Rd. We also shared a pint or two in various pubs and clubs in the same district the McKelvey rooms as well. Sean and I also went on a trip to somewhere in Donegal.
We lost touch about 1974 and when the name you use popped up I thought of him right away.
i totally understand comrade !
I attended the commemorative plaque unveiling & was happy wif the turn out not just by ORM members but by past wp members who understand the stance takin by the ORM split the wp r & hav been a dying polital party which needed a serious overhall & the ORM are the way forword
is the ORM not a dying political movement also ? very little support no election candidates etc .. im not having a dig chara but thats pot calling kettle black ??
they are bot dying politcal movements.they need to realign and use whatever mandate they have to further themselves.