Meanwhile back at the Seanad… November 26, 2010
Posted by WorldbyStorm in back at the Seanad, Irish Politics.trackback
Are you hoping perhaps that there’s a serious push from parts of the Opposition, say the more left inclined parts, to push back against the consensus of the Four Year Plan? You’ll be disappointed.
Senator Alex White: 
The issue of growth is vital and there is precious little in the four year plan that gives any sense of the Government’s plan or strategy on growth. It is correct that we should have the objective of reaching 3% by 2014, to which most parties have agreed. The question is how we get there and how quickly we think we can get there. The debate about this year’s budget and whether it should be €6 billion or whether it could be achieved with a lower figure this year is reflected not just between parties in these Houses but also by outside commentators whom the Minister for Finance and many others are quick to invoke in their favour and who have taken an interest in this point as late as this morning. Twice in its editorial, the Financial Times cautions against the approach taken by the Irish Government and puts forward a compelling view that a slower move towards deficit reduction would be advisable, particularly at this stage. We know where we must be by 2014 but how quickly we think we can get there, especially in the budget for next year, is crucial. I welcome a debate on this aspect of where we are in the move towards 2014. The IMF, the European Central Bank and the European Union has an interest in this. It is striking that the IMF is taking a more nuanced and clear-headed view on the question of growth than some of our so-called European friends.
Senator Joe O’Toole: Hear, hear.
Senator Alex White: We can easily bring the question of growth and stimulating our economy into our debate. We can have the growth as predicted or slow things down so far that we may have to close the whole place down.
Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Hear, hear.
Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. Bang on.
Senator Alex White: How can we talk about the four year plan without talking about the incredible crisis that affects not just our country but the eurozone and the entire European Union? We should be debating that point and finding out where we are in respect of those negotiations. A certain level of confidentiality must be maintained. What does the Government have in mind in respect of the interest rate and a memorandum of understanding? Where will we be at the end of this process?
Senator Dan Boyle: If that is not entering into negotiations in public, I do not know what is. We are in a precarious situation and we must wait for negotiations to happen and see what terms are offered. Both Houses of the Oireachtas will then have the opportunity to decide on their worth. It is also dangerous to claim that somehow we can extend the period by which we can deal with our budgetary crisis.
Senator Alex White: No one said that.
Senator Dan Boyle: We need to debate that.
Senator Alex White: On a friendly point of information, there was no suggestion of extending the period. It was a question of the pace. Will Senator Boyle accept that is what I said?
An Cathaoirleach: Please, Senator.
Senator Dan Boyle: I will go through that. If one is not frontloading—–
Senator Alex White: Just be honest and fair.
Senator Dan Boyle: If one is not frontloading in the first year, one is undermining further confidence and making larger payments in subsequent years. Extending beyond 2014 to a period like 2017—–
Senator Alex White: Who proposed that?
Senator Dan Boyle: I have heard trade union representatives suggest that. The additional cost to this country of extending to 2017 would be €80 billion. This is money we would find it difficult to receive and we would have to pay it back at a certain interest rate. There is a commitment to frontloading and to €15 billion. These are benchmarks we need to maintain. A discussion on the Croke Park agreement needs to happen soon. In line with other Senators on the Order of Business on previous days, our particular commitment to that debate is regardless of what is implemented and reviewed in the Croke Park agreement. There is a need for a signal from those of us involved in public life on budget day itself that whatever cuts and reduced costs are being asked from members of our society are particularly reflected here and to a greater extent. If that does not happen I fear for any budget package that will be presented on 7 December.
As for the election date?
Senator Dan Boyle: I welcome co-operation on having a shorter Christmas recess, sitting more days and bringing forward the finance Bill. What my party leader said quite clearly – people are having difficulty in understanding this – is that it will be on the passage of the finance Bill, which we are anticipating by mid-January—–
Senator Maurice Cummins: What about the second week in January?
Senator Dan Boyle: That is the period. On the passage of the finance Bill.
Senator Maurice Cummins: So the Green Party will facilitate that for the middle of January.
Senator Dan Boyle: Yes. Indeed.
An Cathaoirleach: Senator Boyle’s time has expired.
Senator Maurice Cummins: We take it January is still on for the election. That is all we want to know.
An Cathaoirleach: Please, no interruptions.
Mind you, it’s notable how the Labour Party is coming under fire… though much of the time the proxy of the Unions are used… Take this contribution…
Senator Paschal Donohoe: I support what Senator Cummins said in calling for a further debate on the four year plan. We should also discuss some of the reaction to the four year plan, in particular the call made by the Technical, Engineering and Electrical Union for a campaign of civil disobedience against the plan. That is very much worthy of discussion in the House because any form of protest, including peaceful protest, or people coming together, as is going to happen later in the week is a right. We recognise and welcome that, but stepping over that line to encourage civil disobedience against the State at this stage sends out a very dark and worrying signal.
Senator Paul Coghlan: Hear, hear.
Senator Paschal Donohoe: I ask the people making that call to reflect on three questions. The first is what the call means. Are they encouraging people to storm the Department of Finance, other Departments or institutions of State? They must clarify that.
Senator Jim Walsh: No they are not. The Labour Party is not.
Senator Paschal Donohoe: Does that mean that regardless of the Government that will be in place this kind of campaign will be maintained? Will such a campaign be in place regardless of the result of the general election? That is the kind of signal that could send our society into a spiral from which it would be difficult to get out. I call on the Technical, Engineering and Electrical Union to clarify and withdraw those comments because it is the wrong approach at this stage.
Senator Jim Walsh: As the chalice is about to be passed to the Members of the Opposition—–
Senator Alex White: Senator Walsh should not give up too quickly.
An Cathaoirleach: No interruptions please.
Senator Jim Walsh: It is a pity.
Senator Alex White: We must have a general election first.
An Cathaoirleach: Members, please.
Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: They are running scared.
Senator Jim Walsh: It is a pity to see the leader of the Fine Gael Party play politics this morning at a time when we are standing on the precipice.
Senator Maurice Cummins: No politics is being played.
An Cathaoirleach: Members should please not interrupt.
Senator Maurice Cummins: A simple question was asked.
An Cathaoirleach: Senator Walsh without interruption.
Senator Jim Walsh: A representative of ICTU last night said the solution to the problem was to get people out to march on Saturday. Senator Donohoe, who is always constructive, rightly recognised the shambolic attitude of people like that. Unfortunately, when the Fine Gael Party goes into government it will be with a Labour Party which is in hock financially—–
Senator Alex White: Senator Walsh would know about being in hock.
Senator Jim Walsh: —–and mentally to the unions.
Senator Alex White: Senator Walsh’s party knows about being in hock.
Senator Jim Walsh: Unfortunately, there will be no cohesive solution—–
Senator Alex White: Fianna Fáil invented being in hock.
Senator Jim Walsh: —–or attempt to address the difficulties we are in.
Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: That is an unfair charge.
An Cathaoirleach: Members, please.
Senator Jim Walsh: The sooner the public realise that, the better.
Senator Alex White: Fianna Fáil has made an art form out of it.
An Cathaoirleach: No interruptions please.
Senator Jim Walsh: There is no agreement between the parties on anything. They will not have a joint platform. The populist approach just will not work. We have had too much of it. We are guilty of some of it as well.
Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: You certainly are.
Senator Paul Coghlan: Mea culpa.
Senator Jim Walsh: What is being proposed by the Labour Party at the moment is a recipe for complete collapse. I would like to think we might take some note of what the former Taoiseach, Mr. John Bruton, said to British parliamentarians in the past week. He said that politics needs religiously-minded, ethical politicians. He dismissed the secularist notion that religion and politics should be entirely separate. This is a thoughtful House. We could do well to invite Mr. John Bruton to address the House and have a debate on what he says because, ultimately, unless we have that kind of substance within the political system we will not resolve the problems as the people look to us to do.
Here’s an interesting point…
Senator David Norris: In view of the very difficult economic circumstances it is very interesting to see that 500 to 600 people were in the ballroom of the Shelbourne Hotel yesterday bidding for the Bank of Ireland art collection. That shows there is still money in the country but it is spread around very unevenly. I welcome the fact that the Irish Museum of Modern Art was given the opportunity to choose items to make up any gaps in its collection. I salute the fact that my colleague, Senator O’Toole, signalled that very early on.
Meanwhile the previous day look who popped up…
Senator Ivor Callely: I welcome the publication of the four-year economic plan and support the multi-annual approach of addressing and running our nation’s affairs. As we head into the general election in early 2011 and reflect on party political election promises of previous elections, I suggest that, since the four-year plan is the first attempt to set out our stall, costed and explained to the public, all future party political proposals should be costed and explained and the strategy for their implementation clearly set out. A mechanism should be put in place to allow all proposals to go to the Department of Finance where a senior official, be it an Assistant Secretary General or someone of similar rank, could consider and comment on them. As we all know, political parties in years gone by made promises and did not deliver on them. The public remain somewhat frustrated, having given votes to a particular party on a specific issue on which the party then did not deliver. This is wrong and other countries have implemented a mechanism that works. Will the Leader consider these mechanisms and determine whether we could take this opportunity, particularly in light of the first attempt that is the four-year plan, to set fair procedures in stone?
Senator Jerry Buttimer: A nation holds its breath. Our people are about to be given an unpalatable four-year plan. In 13 years, the Fianna Fáil Party has bankrupted Ireland with its friends. This is its legacy. I want a debate on how to put the situation right. It does not start with the four-year plan. It starts with the Government, led by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance attending the House and telling the truth. This is despite what the Green Party did last Monday in adding to the uncertainty and instability. We all have an obligation as legislators to put the people of Ireland first. That is our first duty. I speak for the ordinary person, the man and woman who is struggling and who will be hammered by the Government today. I understand that the blame game is over because Fianna Fáil is indicted by the people. I canvass and meet people up to seven days a week and they are tired and fed up of this Government and want it out, as we do.
And here’s another familiar voice, who clearly doesn’t understand the concept of general taxation, or indeed systemic wage cuts and pension levies…or perhaps that the IMF might find over-heated rhetoric, well, overheated…
Senator Eoghan Harris: I find the comments from most of the parties surreal at the moment. There is a consensus in this House to ignore two important factors. Very soon Fine Gael and the Labour Party will be in Government. They will have to face, as Senators Healy Eames and Butler have pointed out, not a dig-out, but a loan, a bank overdraft that has to be paid for. If it is paid at 5% and the full facility is drawn down we shall have to find up to €6 billion a year to pay it off.
And a thought from a Senator who we heard from above, who if they had a company which they don’t, and were employing senior civil servants, which they don’t, they’d erm… er…
Senator Jim Walsh: We will, as a consequence, be left with people who are not performing. Rationalisation of the public service must take into account non-performance and these people should be removed from the payroll. Otherwise, we will end up with a dysfunctional public service, which to some degree is what has been happening during the past 20 plus years. Our problems are in part a consequence of a lack of calibre in that regard. I point Members who do not accept this to a Committee of Public Accounts report in regard to three highly paid senior public servants who appeared before that committee to explain the profligacy of moneys on tribunals. Having read that report I was so uninspired I concluded that if I had a company I would not employ any of those three people, who are among our most highly paid senior public servants. We need to address this issue, which should be a priority of the outgoing and incoming Government.
At which point I give up.
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