Dylan in China: And now John Waters is using ‘we’… April 16, 2011
Posted by WorldbyStorm in Culture, The Left.trackback
The bad news is that the habit of Irish Times columnists to rope us all in in an effort to spread guilt and culpability continues to proliferate.
Apparently – I hadn’t heard – Bob Dylan is playing China and has agreed to amend his set list to suit the wishes of the Chinese authorities. I’m not sure what to make of that. It seems an odd one, with at least some contradictions.
Anyhow, here’s his current take:
‘HUMAN RIGHTS activists” have pronounced as “shocking” the refusal of Bob Dylan, during his recent concerts in China, to speak out on behalf of detained Chinese artist Ai Weiwei, who was arrested in a renewed crackdown on political and artistic dissidents.
Got to love the inverted commas around the term human rights activists. And…
We in the West are happy to save money by buying goods stamped Made in China, indifferent to the probability that they have been made by prisoners in some labour camp, whose “crimes” most likely relate to their origins among the “bourgeoisie” or in loose statements delivered in the wrong company.
We wear T-shirts bearing the image of Mao, eat in restaurants named after him, and chuckle when politicians or celebrities tell Marian or Jay that they used to be Maoists.
But we demand that artists such as Bob Dylan make us feel better about all this by delivering slogans from the stage behind which we may claim cultural asylum from our own consciences.
I’m not at all keen on his use of the word ‘we’ there.
But beyond that once upon a time Waters wasn’t averse to referencing China both in terms of its own abuses but also contradictions in the West that flowed from same.
Which makes his current thoughts as to the political meaning or otherwise of Dylan a little strange…
His songs, even the most ostensibly “political” of them, are not about society, but existence. Listen to an early version of The Times They Are A Changin’, and then to the way Dylan sings it these days. Without making anything of it, he has attached an irony that directs the song back into the faces of those who used it as an anthem half a century ago: Don’t stand in the doorway, don’t block up the hall.
Our age is preoccupied with literal, crude gesturing and sloganeering, concepts anathema to Dylan’s music, which exists at the level of irony and ambiguity. The songs’ very titles make it impossible for Dylan even to introduce one of his songs without going far beyond political statement.
Dylan not political? Dylan? Wait a second. It is Bob Dylan we’re talking about – no?
It’s impossible for me to listen to Dylan and believe that his songs aren’t about society – and that some of them are not merely ‘political’ but overtly so [albeit not party political] pointing up not merely existence but the structural aspects of same that oppress. That Dylan has foresworn the ‘political’ sits uneasily with the contents of many of his songs. It’s like, well, why write The Hurricane if you don’t want to comment on certain aspects of US political, societal and cultural life? It sure sounded political to me the first time I heard it as a teenager. As did A Hard Rain’s a-Gonna Fall, as did…
As for the idea that Dylan’s music isn’t sloganeering. Well, you know, c’mon. Sloganeering isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Though Waters doesn’t appear to see the slight irony in the fact Dylan will not – if the reports are accurate – be able to introduce some of his songs. Ooops.
Once upon a time though, and not that long ago, Waters wasn’t averse to using Maoist as a negative term.
Last year in a piece on childcare by social services in the UK he quoted approvingly the following:
In a rare instance of a judge refusing to acquiesce in such procedures, Lord Justice Aikens expressed concerns that the authorities were using trumped-up allegations to take children from good families to meet adoption quotas, describing the actions of social workers in Devon as “more like Stalin’s Russia or Mao’s China than the west of England”.
In 2009 speaking of his own writings on family law he noted:
Later on, I had my own experience of family courts, here and in England. Because of the in camera rule, which forbids discussion of family law cases, I cannot speak of those experiences, but I do say that very little I encountered reassured me about the quality of justice in either jurisdiction. Thirteen years ago, I tentatively started writing about these matters, tiptoeing between the law and the truth. I was thereafter inundated with the stories of men who told of being brutalised in a manner suggestive of China under Mao rather than Ireland under Reynolds, Bruton and Ahern. Once aware of what these men had experienced, it would have been bizarre and wrong not to bear witness to what I knew.
Which implies that he would expect others in – say – the context of China to bear witness to what they know, no?
Or how about this? In a long, and not bad piece, from 1998, on TV advertising aimed at children, he notes:
The Irish toy market is worth in the region of £100 million each year, with Christmas accounting for more than two-thirds of this figure. Most of these toys are produced in countries like China, Hong Kong, Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia. The work is done mainly by women and children, working in sweatshop conditions. Average wages are between £1 and £2 a day for working days of between 10 and 20 hours.
In some cases we’re talking about children of 12, 13 and 14 working 20-hour days, seven days a week for less than £10. A Chinese worker would have to work three months to earn as much as is spent in this country on toys for one child at Christmas.In Bangkok some years ago, a child worker in a toy factory who lost a hand in a machine was given £15 compensation and let go. In 1993, a fire at the Lader Industrial Company in Thailand killed 188 workers and injured 500. An inquiry found that faulty design, lack of fire exits and poor safety practices meant that workers were unable to escape. The main door was locked and there were no fire extinguishers. The Kader factory produced many toys on sale in Irish shops, including Cabbage Patch dolls and plastic replicas of Bart Simpson.
The advertising industry argues that the loss of £1 million to RTE would result in the diversion of this money to other channels. It claims that no evidence has been presented to show that these adverts actually have an influence on the volume of toys sold. The question then arises: why bother advertising toys if advertising has no effect? E television, demanding its money back.
And he continues:
The toy and advertising industries, of course, are fond of pointing out that there is no public outcry against advertising aimed at children. Thus, it is suggested, this issue is not a problem. Bob Quinn points out that 59 per cent of the Irish audience feel that, in general, there is too much advertising on television, while 57 per cent believe the medium is overwhelmingly influenced by the agendas of the companies that advertise.
And unlike his article on Dylan in China he clearly sees problematics about China.
To the extent that he agrees with Bob Quinn about:
…an alliance between aid agencies, poverty agencies, parents’ groups, trade unions and churches to create social resistance to the continued exploitation of children in this manner.
Of course, he’s entitled to change his mind, but it seems odd that he would wheel Mao in as the epitome of evil hardly a year ago, and this week seem, well, sanguine about it.
There’s a further oddity. Not a few weeks ago he was lambasting ‘liberals’ [and leftists] for lack of moral fiber in relation to the latest intervention in Libya, apparently they weren’t calling for sufficient intervention – if any. There, of course, because he’s then attacking ‘counterculturists’ liberals et al are dismal because they’re supposedly relativist in their approach…Indeed he was explicit when he wrote:
The truth is that the international community is immobilised not by military issues concerning intervention in Libya, or by any argument concerning the justness of such an initiative, but by a cultural paralysis that has rendered the western “powers” powerless in the face of tyranny and evil. The ideology promulgated by liberal western media is the most significant cause of this paralysis.
And:
He kills his own people in air-attacks and strikes back at rebel insurgents with force and confidence, promising an “amnesty” to those who leave down their weapons and abandon their burst for freedom. Their surrenders – in effect their suicides – ought to shame the West, its leaders and peoples, except that, due to the influence of its dominant generation of leftist agitators and opinion formers, our cultures are too choked by hypocrisy to any longer have any shame about these matters.
And:
Employing a spurious calculus of carnage that factored out the million Iraqis killed by Saddam, the ageing counterculturalists of the West have conducted an eight-year trial of the only western leaders who have been prepared to face down tyrants on the basis of moral principle and human empathy.
Whatever ones views on the intervention in Libya, it seems somewhat strange that here he’s entirely happy to issue Dylan an existential pass.
And what about politics… y’know, ‘politics’. Well, when it comes to attacking the left, or liberals or counterculturists his complaint is that they don’t do politics…
Obama is the elected representation of the postwar generations who never understood that politics is about choosing the lesser of evils. Even had he the personal courage and determination to act against Gadafy, Obama could not do so, because the commitment to do nothing in such situations is central to the unwritten contract he has made with those who delivered him to what was once the most powerful political position in the world.
Whereas with Dylan…
Art is gratuitousness, beauty for beauty’s sake, a sign of Something Beyond. The point is not to “say” something, but to create something that exists as a witness to life.
What matters is the artist’s existence, gaze and repose, not his attitude, which is merely the grain of grit on which the pearl forms.
Political freedom amounts, simply, to the right to be let alone with life’s mysteriousness, which is not a political gift but an existential event.
This is the “statement” Bob Dylan makes whenever he opens his mouth to sing. By his very presence in China, he was saying something that could only have been reduced by a speech: that a song is not a placard or a pamphlet, but the fullest enrichment of the human breath.
Hmmm… is that what ‘political freedom’ amounts to?
I’ve spent more than enough time around elected politicians to know how power tends to distort. Christ knows what it’s like with political structures that are only loosely representational, if at all.
And perhaps if we can strip away the cod-mystical stuff Dylan’s not saying anything at all. Perhaps he’s just playing a gig and he’s not that fussy about who he plays in front of or who amends his set list – and to be honest that’s the most obviously noxious feature of all this – assuming it’s correct, and it may not be. One thing to play in China, but another thing entirely to be censored while doing so, which seems to take all meaning from it – were there any there to begin with.
But this isn’t really about Dylan, one way or another. I’d be the first to admit that there’s a complexity to all these issues. There’s a broader question about China that has to be addressed by leftists and progressives. But… the first thing is to acknowledge the complexity, not to dismiss it, or worse still to pretend that everyone is equally culpable or to attempt to malign the attitudes of others, as he does from the off with his blanket ‘human rights activists’.
What’s fascinating is that he does precisely what he accuses others of when he writes… “But we demand that artists such as Bob Dylan make us feel better about all this by delivering slogans from the stage behind which we may claim cultural asylum from our own consciences.”
Just as a musician who built his career on intrinsically ‘political’ critiques of society is expected to have at least some regard for the ramifications of same further down the line, so columnists who lecture others about their supposed failings should have some regard for the ramifications of their own stated views. Perhaps someone is trying to bring in all of ‘us’ in to claim asylum from his own conscience.

If ever Utah’s commentary was relevant…
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymY6y6o6PAo&w=480&h=390
hmmm, for some reason the embed isn’t working right now, but the link is definitely worth a listen.
“What I’m saying is there’s a lot of difference between “how many miles must a white dove sail before it can rest in the sand” and ‘dump the bosses off your back!’.”
Classic.
It is hard to understand John Water’s message. I think he is trying to create a space for himself on the Irish reactionary right but is still trying to remain a bit hip. Which gives him his USP I suppose.
There seems to be a glut of these reactionary column writers fighting for space in the Irish media. I presume if neo liberal capitalism is working they all get paid very little since there is an over supply of reactionary scribbling in the free market? Or maybe Tony O’Reilly believes in socialism and guaranteed income for right wing writers?
It’s called ‘wingnut welfare’, Chet.
You have summarised in a nutshell.
It’s called ‘wingnut welfare’, Chet.
Bingo. See also David Quinn’s outfit, and the other failed attempts here with the Freedom Institute and the Open Republic Institute (the ORI failed because Celtic Tiger-days Irish corporates weren’t interested in what Gurdgiev, MacDonnell and McDowell were selling).
Er, is Bobby Dylan political, that’s a hard one, let me think for a nano second. Is the man who wrote Masters of War, Hurricane and Workingmans Blues and countless other rebel rousing tunes political. It must amuse old Bob to be accused of selling out, yet again, as unlike the great man himself, those who peddle such crap are just playing the same old song.
Better to stick with the man’s words and music and you will not go far wrong when it comes to making up your mind about this matter. For Dylan is about as political a songsmith and poet who has ever lived and the proof of the pudding is in the eating, as his words are as relevant today as when he first put pen to paper.
Mmm, but he also wrote My Back Pages, and has spent at least as much time being sceptical about politics as he ever did addressing himself directly to it. He’s not so simple to categorise, and that’s among his strengths.
I read the book by Susan Rotolo, his girlfriend from Greenwich village days when he wrote all his political stuff. She felt that he wasn’t that political but absorbed the left civil rights atmosphere of those Greenwich village days. He was more an artist who reflected the issues of the day in his songs.
But there is no doubt that he was a huge influence on the sixties civil rights, new left movement, from the Freedom marches to the Weathermen. Can’t knock an artist who inspired Sam Cooke to write a Change is Gonna Come when he heard Blowing in the Wind.
I think people impose too much of their own being into Dylan. He is an old fashioned song and dance man who’s first love is rock n roll. If some of his songs were used in support of progressive causes that’s a bonus. But he shirked away from being a frontman for any cause.
Neville Bros. God on our side.
Just a comment on Dylan that might be germane to the discussion, from Lester Bangs (in an article on Dylan’s song ‘Joey’, which he calls “the most mindlessly amoral pieces of repellent romanticist bullshit ever recorded”).
“Dylan doesn’t give a damn about Rubin Carter, and if he spent any more than ten minutes working on the composition of ‘George Jackson’ then Bryan Ferry is a member of the Eagles. Dylan merely used Civil Rights and the rest of the Movement to advance himself in the first place; “The Times They Are A-Changin’” and “Blowin’ In The Wind” were as much a pose as Nashville Skyline. Which actually was not just kosher but a fair deal, because the exchange amounted to symbiotic exploitation – the Movement got some potent anthems, Dylan got to be a figurehead, and even if he was using his constituency, art is more important than politics anyway.” (Mainlines, Blood Feasts, and Bad Taste, pg. 64)
Good point well made by Lester Bangs in his usual iconoclastic fashion. But there was something about Dylan that would have made him a famous artist even if he had not hopped on the Civil Rights bandwagon. When I was younger,I listened to Bringing it all back Home,Highway 61 Revisited, Blonde on Blonde constantly and I cannot remember any of the lyrics. Certainly got no political insights from him. I just liked the sound of the Band in the background.
Did Bangs actually have any evidence for his opinion other than the rock writer’s desire to shock?
The article is an analysis of Dylan’s (bloody awful, in my opinion) song ‘Joey’ from the Desire album, which Bangs reveals as being essentially a set of half-truths, misinformation, and outright lies, and he backs up his point with copious amounts of research. Yes, the statement above is merely Bangs’ opinion; however, I don’t think it was written simply to shock, and by and large I’d agree with it, but I never liked Dylan much anyway.
I ask because Dylan plainly was involved in civil rights politics, and then got out of it when it wasn’t at all fashionable to do so. Bangs on the other hand was a loudmouth and a dickhead.
The song Joey was a genuine piece of shit, mind. It’s about a Noo Yawk Italian-American mafioso, who by all accounts was a nasty vicious psychopath – not the romantic hero Dylan paints him as.
Of course, but romanticising villains is a common Dylan theme. Think John Wesley Harding. (Or for that matter, Pretty Boy Floyd, which he took from Woody Guthrie, on whose political commitment it would be interesting to rad Bangs’ comments. Except that obviously it wouldn’t be.)
Definitely a loudmouth but I think journalists should hold rock stars to account when they use causes to bolster their image and record sales. Can anyone disagree that all the individuals and acts involved with Live Aid over the years got more out of it than Africa ever did?
Maybe, but that’s not the point. I’d want to know on what basis Bangs held the opinions he expressed, that Dylan neither cared about Carter nor, earlier, about Civil Rights. If it’s just something he’s made up because he’d like it to be true, then it seems to me that it’s Bangs, not Dylan, who’s the one who needs to be brought to account.
For what it’s worth, I suspect Dylan’s contribution to the Cause was rather greater than Bangs.
Bono? Actually, worth mentioning on another score here as well – aren’t U2 these days denying that “Bloody Sunday” is about the obvious?
U2 are the worst example of rock musicians making vague statements about political issues to give themselves a hip, edgy feel which shift the units. Sunday Bloody Sunday says nothing. Another example, Bullet the Blue Sky makes vague references to USA involvement in Central America. So I guess that is why Bono is best mates with Jesse Helms and George W Bush those known advocates of human rights in the region.
FWIW, Joan Baez says that he told her he’d only been into the movement for the money he’d get from riding it to stardom, and she replied that she didn’t believe him for a second on that one.
Heh. Very good.
Did the song help or harm Carter, did Bob Dylan’s lyric impede the civil rights movement or give it a nudge, if you are looking for someone who ticks every single motivational boxes as to why they do things, well, I was going to say go and join the Trotskyists, but then even I should not stoop that low. Sorry comrades only kidding.
I was never much of a Dylan fan during the sixties, only listening to his lyrics much latter and like the best of poets I would guess they were heart felt when he wrote them. I always thought he was another middle class kid playing at politics, when a friend who is a great fan, took me to Minnesota to look round where he grew up and the home where he lived I was surprised about just how modest it was. Although his dad as a shop keeper had a petty bourgeois job, Dylan’s home was the same as most workers who worked in the open mines up there and his school was the only high school in the town, and as the majority of the pupils were children of workers his school mate’s must have fallen into that category.
Besides anyone whose hero as a teenager was Woody Guthrie could not but be political. The more so with Dylan as in the early days he based his whole act and persona on Woody.
Is he without faults, of course not, he is a man, is he a supreme artist with a radical bent, of course, surely that is enough for us to rejoice. Now he is 70, (I think) I wish the old boy would write more songs about getting old. Sadly it is an area of life popular music stays clear of, and there is nothing more silly than people like Mick jagger and co, singing about first love, etc.(Or street fighting men, come to that
Sadly it is an area of life popular music stays clear of
Bookends? When I’m Sixty-Four?
don’t forget his apology for Israel- Neighborhood Bully.
Dylan is due in Israel which I think is even worse. So I gather is Riverdance.
Oh I think a former foreign minister of China is one of Mary Robinson’s elders.
Is Israel worse than China: discuss. Please include consideration of numbers in prison, executions, censorship, women’s and gay rights and ability to form free trade unions.
This is your essay question for this evening comrades.
Optional project: was John Lennon a middle-class fraud? Take into account that Ringo the only real working class member of the Beatles.
On first point, somewhat because no one even kids themselves that China is a democracy which all too many do say about Israel.
On second/optional project, yes. but working class hero is still nice song.
I protest human rights violations in China. I,also, think the national minorities have the right to self determination. I am for a one state solution in Palestine.
I think it is fairly futile making an index of worse and worser.It may be sometimes needed where there is an abuse of language. eg every violation nowadays is called genocide. But injustice where ever it is should be fought. Many are the crimes justified on the basis that the other side is worse.Whether it is a gulag, apartheid or the Jim Crow system it should be fought.Dylan has long left the human rights train.
A plus grade to your cousin.
Not much politics here….
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/3473681/Only_a_pawn_in_their_game_1963
hadn’t heard before brilliant.
IIRC, Dylan once played at a benefit concert
in memory of Victor Jara in the 1970s (another
example, along with the PPOTU Waters mentions,
of popular musicians falling afoul of dictatorships).
I sent John Waters the link to New Yorker website blog re: some of lyrics Bob Dylan did sing in China. Ive lost patience with him; I found him uninterested in any point of view except his own. We (yes, ”we,” a few friends and I) feel he has lost the plot more than once.
I remain a Dylan fan from day one…almost fifty years after first hearing him. He’s just released a 1963 University campus acoustic recording of “Talking John Birch…..” Magic. Desite what Lester Bangs wrote “Joey” in 1975 remains one of my favourite Dylan songs; Scorsese now making a film with de Niro about the Irish guy who reputedly killed both Joey Gallo and Jimmy Hoffa.
There’s no doubt about it that Dylan can sing a song and I’m very partial to Positively 4th Street.
There’s some query over whether he did amend a set list, he appears to have dumped a lot of tracks from the early years out of his set lists long before this. And in that sense I don’t regard Dylan as hugely political anymore – and I remember his born again phase too…
To be honest I’m more interested in the above in Waters response where yet again he attacks the left/liberals.
Reposted from paula Geraghty
Last Thursday 14th April, National Art College and Design students held a
memorial style protest at the Chinese Embassy in Dublin at the disappearance of
the world renowned and outspoken artist Ai Weiwei.
Dylan was a friend of the anarchist/outlaw/hippie leader Emmett Grogan.
Dylan heard The Patriot Game from the Clancy Bros. And from it he developed ‘With God on our side’,-to the chagrin of Dominick Behan. Hard to match the Neville Bros. version.
-For you don’t count the dead
When God’s on your side.-
http://new.music.yahoo.com/neville-brothers/tracks/with-god-on-our-side–1726096
I wonder if the hippies at post 21 would be interested in this –
The Information Office of China’s State Council, or cabinet, issued the Human Rights Record of the United States in 2010 on Sunday.
Following are some facts and figures from the report:
– In 2009, an estimated 4.3 million violent crimes, 15.6 million property crimes and 133,000 personal thefts were committed against U.S. residents aged 12 or older, and the violent crime rate was 17.1 victimizations per 1,000 persons.
– In 2009, weapons were used in 22 percent of all violent crimes in the United States, and about 47 percent of robberies were committed with arms.
– More than 6,600 travelers had been subject to electronic device searches between October 1, 2008 and June 2, 2010, nearly half of them American citizens.
– By 2011, America will have more than 1.7 million men and women in prison, an increase of 13 percent over that of 2006.
– On June 24, 2010, the U.S. Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs approved the Protecting Cyberspace as a National Asset Act, which will give the federal government “absolute power” to shut down the Internet under a declared national emergency.
– The U.S. unemployment rate edged up to 9.8 percent in November 2010, and the number of unemployed persons was 15 million in November, among whom, 41.9 percent were jobless for 27 weeks and more.
– A total of 44 million Americans found themselves in poverty in 2009, four million more than that of 2008. The share of residents in poverty climbed to 14.3 percent in 2009, the highest level recorded since 1994.
– 14.7 percent of U.S. households were food insecure in 2009, an increase of almost 30 percent since 2006.
– The number of families in homeless shelters increased 7 percent to 170,129 from fiscal year 2008 through fiscal year 2009.
– The number of Americans without health insurance increased from 46.3 million in 2008 to 50.7 million in 2009, the ninth consecutive annual rise, which accounted for 16.7 percent of the total U.S. population.
– Out of 6,604 hate crimes committed in the United States in 2009, some 4,000 were racially motivated and nearly 1,600 were driven by hatred for a particular religion.
– 90 percent of U.S. women have suffered some form of sexual discrimination in the workplace; some 20 million women are rape victims in the country; One in four women is a victim of domestic violence.
– Nearly one in four U.S. children struggles with hunger; every year over 3 million children are victims of violence reportedly and the actual number is three times greater.
– More than 93,000 children are currently incarcerated in the United States, and between 75 and 93 percent of children have experienced at least one traumatic experience, including sexual abuse and neglect.
– At least 109,000 people were killed in the Iraq war, and 63 percent of them were civilians from March 2003 through the end of 2009; the U.S.-led North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) troops had caused 535 Afghan civilian deaths and injuries in 2009.
– During the UN Universal Periodic Review (UPR) of the record on November 5, the United States received a record 228 recommendations by about 60 country delegations for improving its human rights situation.
From Xinhua
Jesus wept. No one is saying that the US is perfect, or even great or good in many ways. But the fact that America is far from perfect in no way detracts from the many and continued human rights abuses committed by China. And I will say that for all its short comings America is still a better place to live than China. And I say that as an American dissident.
The savage loves his native shore – so what?
China’s economy is expected to grow 9.6 percent in 2011 and your country can’t afford to pay it’s debts. You fat parasites have had it too good for too long.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0419/1224294979992.html
PJ, that ‘you’ is very indiscriminate, yourcousin deserves better than that.
And Hitler “rebuilt” the German economy. China’s economic expansion has very little correlation with their human rights record. Indeed their economic growth helps fuels their labor violations duen to their reliance on child labor and other poor working conditions.
I’m glad you linked to an Irish Times article to inform me about the S&Ps threats otherwise I’d have had no idea what was taking place in my own country. I do believe the US is in for a serious decline, but then again so is the whole world. The coming economic troubles are IMO linked much more to the systemic troubles of capitalism than to one country’s economic choices. Though I will also admit that the vestiges of social democracy built in the latter half of the twentieth century are certainly not compatible tax base that began to manifest itself from the eighties onwards (ie the rich not having to pay taxes). And myths of rugged American individualism certainly help to create a political atmosphere where civic society is seen as secondary to the business world. Like I said our shit stinks, no one denies that.
As for the savage…you know I guess I do, not fond of the government, the people piss me off more often than not, but in the end I do love the land where I was born and where my father was born and where my son was born. cheesy I know but true.
As being a fat parasite. Anytime you want to switch things up you can come live my parasitical life for awhile and see what it’s like just let me know…