Sean Garland: Extradition Refused December 21, 2011
Posted by Garibaldy in Workers' Party.trackback
Brilliant news just in from the court in Dublin where the judge has said that he is refusing the extradition of Sean Garland to the United States. He will give a detailed judgment on January 13th, but given the length of time that the case has dragged on, he decided to indicate his intentions today. Congratulations to Sean and family, and thanks to everyone here and elsewhere who took part in the campaign against the extradition. Let’s hope this is the end of it now.
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Great news! Was that the High or the Supreme Court?
A kick in the arse for McDowell!
CMK, it was the High Court.
The ruling was delivered in 30 seconds apparently, the court “was not disposed” to forward Seán for extradition. The feeling is that the delay until January in issuing the written judgement will allow time for the i’s to be dotted and the t’s to be crossed on the ruling, hopefully reducing the likelihood of the state appealing it to the Supreme Court.
I was late arriving up at the courts this morning myself, arriving just before 11am to see everyone standing outside the building with an aura of relief and shellshock that finally the case had been dismissed, 6 years after the initial arrest in Belfast.
Lovely christmas present for Seán and Mary (and one christmas wish at least come true for HAL http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2011/12/19/what-is-santa-bringing-you-this-year-and-what-are-you-getting-other-people/#comment-111215).
And one less distraction for the Workers’ Party also, especially the core group of comrades who have been heavily involved in the campaign, Séamus & Valerie in particular, and many others who organised meetinsg with influential suppoorters of the campaign, organised street petitions around the country etc.
Thanks must also go out to the many political figures and trade unionists etc. who added their voices to Seán’s campaign over the years. For a full list see the campaign website at:
http://www.seangarland.org/sponsors.html
LATC, cheers for the update. Ok, High Court; still good news, but there is a ‘but’. Hopefully the State will seize this way out. With some erstwhile comrades at the Cabinet table maybe it might stay the hand of those FG’s who’d capitulate to US pressure, which is sure to come.
Indeed. The hope is that the new AG might be more sympathetic than the previous one.
Good news indeed, lets hope Sean now gets to spend the autumn of his life in the warmth of his family and country.
Well done to the comrades who worked at the core of this campaign.
Fantastic news! Congratulations to Sean and Mary and to all those who have worked so hard in Sean’s defence.
[...] Garibaldy notes, Dublin High Court has dismissed the US application for the extradition of former [...]
Expect the State to announce on January 13 that they shall be appealing the ruling. It is not over yet.
congrats to sean and mary on your long fight for justice,might have a drink with you in the new year,
mick mcdermott, jun.
He should start watching out fro drones now…
Very good news. A lot of good work put in by a lot of good people looks like it should pay off. Nice bloody nose for the Yanks.
Good to see this farce is finally over.
Statement from Rev Chris Hudson, chair of the campaign to stop the extradition of Sean Garland here
http://seangarlandextradition.wordpress.com/2011/12/21/extradition-victory/
And thanks to people here for their good wishes, but has been noted the danger has not entirely passed. Having said that, a bit of good news for the holidays.
[...] http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2011/12/21/sean-garland-extradition-refused/#comment-111337 [...]
Well done Guys, extremely well run campaign.
I see Ramzi you’ve joined in the feeding frenzy on Sean Garland at ‘politics.ie’ open your debate here and we’ll all have chat!
Absolute bullshit. I don’t like being called a hypocrite, so maybe you could provide evidence or admit you are just shit-stirring.
I said I didn’t want him to be extradited and even defended the WP against some posters who had gone off the deep end.
I also said there seemed to be a case to answer, which I believe I have said here on the past, and which I think is justifiable.
Maybe not the level of hagiography and delusional paranoid conspiracy theory you would want to see.
Seán knew that he was never going to be extradited. He has too many powerful friends in London, he could also start talking and cause a lot of uncomfortable questions to be asked. Who was going to risk that?
Really? That’s quite some conspiracy theory you’ve got there. Of course the reality that the WP as vehicle for achieving national state power has had a few problems in the last two decades might suggest that you’re wildly wrong about supposed ‘friends in London’ or him ‘starting talking’, even putting aside the mean-spirited and unlikely implications of your thoughts.
And that’s before we come to the point that the WP toiled long and hard, and I’m not a member by the way and would be strongly critical of some of their positions, to build a coalition of the most unlikely supporters to contest this extradition bid.
And also that WP members I know were genuinely and sincerely concerned that the outcome of this could be very negative for Seán Garland.
Many of the problems of the Workers Party can be traced back to Garland and those closest to him. Many of these people were viewed as untouchable by the Guards.
So powerful friends in London and untouchable by the Guards,yet tagged and unable to travel,constant fear of extradition hanging over his head,arrested while attending his Party conference in the North,arrested and jailed in Dublin by the Guards.Sorry Donal, venting your spleen with such nonsense might work better in your local.
But precisely the same charge was made against certain PSF people that they were viewd as untouchable. Complete hearsay unless you happen to be a member of the gardai and if you were you wouldn’t be telling us here. It’s completely reductionist too, you can say any old stuff you want to with no fear of having to prove it in any serious way. My read is that naturally the security forces played everyone off each other as and when they could just as the paramilitaries did likewise (the lost revolution recounts a particularly depressing example in he wak if the murder of the two british soldiers at he funeral of those murdered by stone). But to suggest it went further than that you or anyone would need to present much better proof and again you wouldnt be doing hat here if you had it.
Why are either of you bothering to reply to this Provo fantasist?
That’s kind of the point though Mark, as doloras noted, it could be any number of people who hold that view and indeed hold the same view about SF. Why think that Dónal is an SF supporter? There are a large range of people on the Republican left – and the left in general – who are none too fond of the WP or Garland’s role in it. Indeed the SP has never been shy about putting forward its own critique of same and I’m sure it too might look at Garland’s history, and perhaps the shift towards more ‘orthodox’ Marxism and think not dissimilar thoughts [though presumably not with the nonsense about 'untouchability'].
Donal’s local – ‘The Laughing Judge and Provo Moron’
To be fair, what he’s hinting about Garland is exactly what you hear from RIRA/CIRA/32CSC types about Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.
+1 doloras. And also in fairness Sinn Fein was a part of those who signed up to the anti extradition campaign. It might be no arm to remember that.
‘it might be no arm to remember that.’
Happy Xmas, Dr Freud.
Hah, hah…
“And also in fairness Sinn Fein was a part of those who signed up to the anti extradition campaign.”
Absolutely so. In fairness to SF one of their branches held a fundraiser gig for Seán’s campaign only last weekend over in Laytown. And fair play to them for that, and for their prominent and not so prominent public representatives adding their names to the campaign and working to have local authority councils pass motions in support of the campaign over the past few years.
Mark P, that’s unfair. He could very well be an IRSP fantasist.
The fact he was initially arrested in the UK would presumably mean his friends in London aren’t particularly good ones.
If donal is hinting that there was some kind of understanding between the WP and elements of the British I telligence services in the 80s and 90s, then I think there is a fair amount of evidence to suggest this. The lost Revolution is full of examples.
However idont think that’s relevant for the extradition decision.
The interesting thing about the ‘understanding’ trope, and I’m sure as I noted above that there were many of varying degrees on the part of all paramilitary groups etc inc WP, is that for example the WP believe that that existed in the 1970s during some of the feuds with PIRA.
To be honest at this stage I take almost everything I hear about the doings of paramilitaries during the conflict with a considerable pinch of salt. Everyone has an angle and wants to defend their patch as they see it. People from all sides can and will defend ‘understandings’ or deny them. It’s like penetration by the security services. It’s clear everyone was and is hugely penetrated. What use it all was is a different question.
Actually it raises interesting questions as to why organisations were so clearly compromised. And as interesting how compromised were security services, if at all?
Sorry, that’s a complete tangent from your point.
Well it’s an understandable tangent. I remember reading the stuff about OIRA views on PIRA collusion during the feud.
I would agree with your point about a complex mash of over-lapping relationships and mutual infiltration, various agendas etc Doubt we’ll ever get to the bottom of it.
There is a wider question, that for reasons of solidarity people probably won’t raise, but isn’t the fact that the WP (and of course because of the week that’s in it) HAS fraternal relations with the North Korean regime and defends that regime hugely problematic from a progressive view point?
I agree with opposing the attempt by the US to extradite Garland. But I do not agree with Garland’s support for North Korea.
In that spirit I wonder how many of Garland’s supporters would support the demand for the release of Marian Price. As it happens I disagree entirely with her politics but the case against her is a joke. (see below)
I think that the various Sinn Fein figures who supported Garland’s campaign showed a lot of maturity. It would certainly not have been the WP’s position back in the 1980s. I don’t like the 32 CSM but the Price case stinks.
(my point is by the way, that it isn’t about picking and choosing which cause of injustice you like.)
http://www.derryjournal.com/community/columnists/free_marian_price_now_1_3333228
Yeah, I’ve said it before, I find the links with NK perhaps barely understandable in the previous historical context but inexplicable in the contemporary one. Still, that’s an issue for the WP to work out themselves I guess.
Re extradition and imprisonment more broadly, tend to agree.
It would be a shame if this thread degenerated into the usual stuff about security force collusion and support for the DPRK. Not that such questions shouldn’t be asked or that answers shouldn’t be given, I’m not suggesting censorship, but those discussions have happened at length elsewhere and really after the long legal struggle (which isn’t completely settled until we know if an appeal to the Supreme Court will be applied for or granted) really it’s time to just give peple a bit of a break.
Just at a personal level, as you know I’m only in the WP coming up to 2 years now, so all of this stuff predates my involvement, but being based in Meath where Seán lives, and being in the local WP branch with him and seeing himself and his wife Mary over the past couple of years living inder the strain of the on-going legal case, well I’m not so sure that they or anyone in the WP “knew” that the case would ultimately be dismissed, and far from it.
And on another side note altogether, I came across this fairly interesting website about the DPRK only last week:
http://www.northkoreatech.org/
There’s a particularly interesting report about thier IT sector here:
http://www.nautilus.org/publications/essays/napsnet/reports/DPRK_Digital_Transformation
When I say particularly interesting I mean that in the context of people of a Left persuasion who work in IT, perhaps, which is a small enough crossover admittedly. Anyway it shines a fascinating light into the workings of the DPRK’s undustrial development and how such things work out with the relative difficulties of external co-operation between global free market forces and the socialism in one country of a relatively impoverished state. As I say, I found it quite fascinating. And very illuminating to hear that the DPRK isn’t all just famine and gulags, amazingly, who’d have thunk!?
“And very illuminating to hear that the DPRK isn’t all just famine and gulags, amazingly, who’d have thunk!?”
I am sure Ireland had some interesting things happening in 1845 to 1850 aside from the usual. I hope De Rossa supports the peaceful transition to another Kim
Jim,
The point is that we only ever get a very superficial and hostile narrative of the DPRK in the media. That report on the development of their IT infrastructure is quite objective and interesting in many ways.
Clearly there are aspects of the DPRK that are not ideal, but it’s illuminating to read the IT opinion piece the other day which castigated the DPRK on a number of fronts including the paranoid militarism of the regime, the lack of democracy, did it mention gulags(?), yet fails abysmally to reflect on how the US regime inflicts actual paranoid militarism in Asia, how democratic accountability has been directly removed from Italy and Greece and indirectly from Ireland, and how the US imprisons it’s black population at a level which is systemic in its application.
(Link to IT piece here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1220/1224309292439.html)
Two wrongs don’t make a right of course and I’m not arguing that, but equally we might do better than simply repeat the knee-jerk US imperialist line (or the “anti-Stalinist” socialist line) about the DPRK.
The problem is though that it’s not simply not a case of not ideal, or of a reaction to the US, there’s plenty of instances across Asia of democratisation. Indeed one could point to the enormous advances by states that were right dictatorships in that regard. By pretty much any and every metric, politically, societally, in terms of human rights, freedom of expression, etc DPRK is abysmal . And by my reading little or none of that is to do with Stalinism, anti-Stalinism or whatever.
To be honest the fact that the third generation in a single family is taking over as third successive ‘leader’ says everything one needs to know about it’s supposed ‘socialist’ component.
Just as an addendum, I understand entirely that the history of the Korean peninnsula is grim, and that the US must take blame for that, but then too so must the USSR as was and the PRC. There were plenty of state actors in play, and at a time when the balance of power was much more evenly balanced. But the DPRK must itself assume responsibility for the shape and form of its own society `as it is now, and for the shape and form of its relationships with other states which by any measure too are entirely reprehensible [kidnapping civilians from beaches, assassinations of civilian political leaderships in other states etc], and particularly in a context where the society has been shaped by a political/military elite who have paid what appears to be lip service to socialism and Marxism [by the way the it appears the latest Kim Jong-un was educated in a Swiss finishing school. That too is telling].
WbS, much of what you’ve said there I would find difficult to argue with. The dynastic aspect in particular is far from ideal. My point is only that nothing is black and white. Politics everywhere, even in its representative parliamentary form is far from removed from capture of state power by vested familial interests. Famine doesn’t only exist in the DPRK, it occurs in states which are supposedly open and free. Mass imprisonment doesn’t only occur in the DPRK etc. I’m not putting myself forward as an uncritical apologist of the DPRK here, even if it does seem that way. The fact that pointing out some interesting and familiar aspects of their industrial development (echoes of the ESAT Digifone saga here can be read between the lines of that report) can be seen as somehow boosting the regime uncritically is more a function of how one-sided the debate about the DPRK tends to be than anything else. Ok, maybe I did leave myself open to criticism for a bit of boosting…
It’s not that I think you’re being a booster, it’s just that the weight of evidence that stuff is bad, seriously and systemically bad, is so great on one side, that any genuine achievements [of which there are undoubtedly some] simply don’t redress the balance on the other side.
When socialism goes wrong, as it will in various instances, I think it’s better that socialists or leftists say so, not least in solidarity of those people who are stuck in contexts which not one of us on here would accept for a moment were we facing likewise, but also and as importantly so that things can get better in the future.
I agree with what you’re saying, in particular about learning from mistakes or difficulties with previous implementations of socialism, whether that’s in the Soviet/Chinese sphere of influence or whether it’s the failures of social democracy in this part of the world. and moving on from that to better future models. South America seems to offer some fertile ground for future adaptations at the moment, although I’m sure there are difficulties and non-ideal aspects there also. It’s a process after all, not an end of history.
Definitely agree. South America, and Central America, offer some real hope. That said, is it possible that that is because of the particular point in their historical/economic development?
Though that’s an entirely different conversation
But what are we going to learn from NK, or Soviet Russia, or China that folks were tempted to repeat? I mean seriously was anyone here going to be like,
“I was totally going to start a total bat shit crazy isolationist regime whose leaders piss away $800,000 a year on Hennessy, but whose citizens don’t have access to basic amenities. But on second thought after close examination of previous implementation of that model I realize that it might not go over so well”
or how about,
“Man I was going to liquidate his kulak ass by sending him, his whole family and his entire ethnic group to Siberia, but the rail infastructure just isn’t there anymore and have you seen the cost of diesel these days?!?!”
What happened to having the common sense that God gave to common vegetables?
The irony in this post is that when I took a break from CLR I dropped WBS a line outlining some of my reasons for stepping back. One of the major ones was the large disconnect between what I was seeing and the rhetoric posted here sometimes. So last night after closing the job down (and I mean that 498 of the 500 workers had already left hours ago when my foreman and I finished some shit that had to be done) on the way home I talked to my friend who received his foreclosure notice last week and who was trying to sell off some stuff to make his mortgage for at least one more month. He has two kids, one who’s twenty and a daughter who’s in her teens. I asked if there was anything that I could buy for her that he would be able to give so that there could be a Christmas because as it stands there isn’t go to be any Christmas for them period. He said that all she wants for Christmas is for dad to have a job. I’m going to take over some deer and pig that I got so they’ve got some free eats, but it’s an impotent gesture that is really meant to compensate for the fact he will lose his home and there’s not a damn thing I can do about it.
That’s reality. So to come from that scenario to a string of comments arguing about the various points of NK life where folks are seriously comparing NK to the US closes that circle rather nicely.
At its best CLR serves as a place where the abuses and faults of the system are pointed out and that human decency, sense of solidarity and a place where people from various walks of life can come together for a better future for our families, our communities and our class. At its worst, well this comment string isn’t the worst but it does show some of the “divorce from reality” that tends to permeate some comment threads.
Yourcousin, I’m sorry to see that you’ve been laid off and your mate is in foreclosure, as well. Particularly at this time of the year. I wish you all the best.
Is there any indication among US workers of a search for alternatives to the present system? Is all faith being placed in the Democrats, the republicans, the tea party or is apathy and despair rampant? Does the general strike in Oakland have any resonance. It would be good to hear some reports from the coalfront of the US working class!
I ask because I’ve seen some evidence that the wave of foreclosures in the US has a very, very shaky legal basis (based on much of the mortgage documentation being processed by computers with little human oversight) and that
a well funded campaign to challenge each and every foreclosure through the courts would bring this whole juggernaut screeching to a halt. Capital has left itself vulnerable on this particular flank and it will be interesting to see if that weakness can be exploited by US workers.
it appears the latest Kim Jong-un was educated in a Swiss finishing school
Does that mean he can walk downstairs with a book on his head?
The larks he had as he used to climb out of the dorm windows on the third floor, shinny up the drain pipes to the roof and then with his friends the Marcos twins and the Pinochet nephews scoff macaroons until the dawn…
‘Clearly there are aspects of the DPRK that are not ideal’
Ever wonder how the left gets a reputation for resolutely denouncing repression in countries governed by the right, but coming up with excuses for so-called left wing dictatorships? ‘not ideal’. No shit.
+1
But that’s why WBS gets a saints medal for calling bullshit in a cordial manner that still encourages debate.
It’s what makes the CLR an island of civilisation on the web.
Agreed. But imagine a supporter of Israel going ‘the situation of the Palestinians is of course ‘far from ideal’ but otherwise…context, history, rival states (all dictatorships except us etc…). Once you get into that game you end up defending things that socialists just should not.
Shay, I’m an understating type of person. What I say “aspects are far from ideal” you can take it that I mean “aspects are pretty shit really”.
Would I like to live in the DPRK myself? Probably not from what I know of it, although I’ve never been there.
Would I like to live in the USA? Definitely not, and I’ve been there many times and know people who live and have lived there, so I am somewhat informed on that account.
But my point about the DPRK is that actually none of us here really know anything about it firsthand. It probably is a pretty shit place to live for some people, but for others it’s probably just home.
Roll the clock back 25 years ang similar discussions abounded about the DDR. Knowing what I know now, from people who lived in the DDR and other countries in the Soviet sphere and it’s not black and white about teh totality of that state being a Stasi-run prison, it was more subtle that that by far.
And maybe the DPRK is similar, though I acknowledge it does seem more alien to us here in this part of the world of course.
General point of interest did they ever have severe food shortages in European Comm. countries. I imagine it happened but am unaware of anything on the scale of NK.
Not that I ever heard of.
no i couldnt really recallanything like that happenign either. Just curious.
Happy Christmas WBS to you and yours.
And likewise que…
I have to say anybody with some sense would prefer to live in South Korea. Time for a reality check
NK is a state under attack, SK is not – ultra Left day dreaming is not replacement for attempting to understand geopolitics.
If it is under attack it is under attack from its own elite. Theres a point where one has to be loyal to actual people rathe than abstractions (where geoploitics fits in when the range of information about NK is what it is escapes me). And I’m far from ‘ultra-leftist’.
But as was noted earlier this is not the thread and not perhaps the time in terms of the day thats in it for this discussion.
North Korea is a medieval state. It is going to the 3rd generation now in terms of hereditary leadership. We hear glorious news about the red sky over the mountain as the leader died, the trembling of the earth etc etc, trees crying at his birth. Saudi Arabia must be a Social democratic state, if North Korea is a true socialist one.
Probably the most telling aspect of this debate is that no one addresses “Your Cousin” but prefer to debate over the issues of North Korea. The left just loves arguing among itself about points of theology. It loves ideological purity about practicality or relevance to the working class.
There are still people on the left that will not hear a harsh word spoken about China, about its aggressive colonialism in Africa, the incredible inequality it supports. It is a hyper-capitalist system, of a kind not seen in America in a 100 years,( honestly probably never seen) but because they are run by the so called Communist Party, they are above criticism.
Even though their labour law is among the most repressive and anti-worker in the world. There is no meaningful support for the poor, jobs are inherited. You could go on for a month.
This nonsense about North Korea as having even any positive aspect is just a throwback from the Cold War.
I tend to agree with yourcousin’s line, I’d have hoped that was implicit in my responses so far on this thread.
I also agree with your points re the PRC. Particularly the one about it potentially seeing abuses not seen in the the US in a hundred years if ever. That said I wonder how many in Ireland on the left would genuinely give any support to the PRC? Very very few, and arguably one would find much greater support from business and our ‘mainstream’ political formations. So while disagreeing considerably with some of what has been written here already I don’t think it’s unuseful to parse this out, though again, would it be possible perhaps to return to it on another thread [given that this one deals with a specific issue, that of the very welcome refusal of extradition of SG... ]. Early in the new week there’ll be an open thread and people can discuss/comment/criticise freely as much as they like on the issue of NK.
Sorry, I should add fernando, if you look at the responses so far they’re definitely weighted to those who who take a negative view of NK.
One could go further and say nobody here is actually taking a positive view of the DPRK, only that some are more critical than others on balance.
YC, sorry to hear about your situation there, genuinely.
There are still people on the left that will not hear a harsh word spoken about China
Who?
Ejh: Andy Newman?
It is a hyper-capitalist system, of a kind not seen in America in a 100 years
It may be the future of American -and our – capitalism though…..
Happy Christmas, all.
Fernado reads a bit to much of the popular press mixed with dashings of trot hysteria.
By the way YC your mate would have a job in NK, and when it comes down to that it’s a fairly major plus among others of the system they have managed to develop when compared to states looked upon more kindly by the US – it shows a fairly basic lack of understanding to say we’re comparing a country that was destroyed in the 50s with the worldest premier imperialist power to live in – we’re comparing the evil of their systems and I for one believe the US presents a real and present danger to humanity whereas NK does not.
Yeah, say what you like about slavery, but at least you’ve got a job for life.
Plus an hereditary ruling caste. What’s not to like?
The South was destroyed as well.Imperialism is nasty of course and the main enemny. But it is a bit like here, let us not absolve local elites from all blame. Imagine FF blaming everything on the troika.
The Kims are a nasty repressive family. The regime has no connection with socialism or communism.Hopefully the Korean people deal with them
I am open to correction but don’t the Communist Party and the Workers Party both maintain some connection with China?
Wonder how an ‘Occupy Bejing’ would go down. Or did they not try that in 1989?
It’s happening now:
In September, the villagers drove out the local Communist Party officials, who left behind an empty police station and government offices, and elected their own representative committee. Xue’s son explained: “We found we were better at administration. The old officials turned out not to have had any accounts in their office, so they must have been swindling us.”
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/dec2011/pers-d24.shtml
Excellent.
Talking to the WP representative at the recent International Meeting of Workers and Communist Parties in Athens, apparently the CPC were notable in their absence.
http://www.solidnet.org/13-international-meeting/2296-13-imcwp-parties-participated-en
I think it is fair to say that views on the PRC in Ireland mostly derive from the bourgeois media which is hostile to China and its 80 million strong Communist Party. I picked up this book in Beijing a few weeks ago. http://www.china.org.cn/arts/2011-06/30/content_22890344.htm
It’s well worth tracking down and is availabe for the Kindle on Amazon at
George Galloway – HANDS OFF CHINA!
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Hands off one of the most powerful and exploitative capitalist states in the world. You go George!
Billions of people inhabit our globe – the planet is big enough to accommodate small groups and energetic individuals which will defend, and identify with, every twist and turn of a powerful state or political movement. Often such commentators clothe their tail-ending in red colours. If George Galloway is performing this job for China, it seems that he has some fellow-thinkers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ross_%28academic%29
Every day of hindsight suggests “Critical Support” – not “Support” – is the best approach to take towards states or movements which are aligned against the main western powers.
A few sources on North Korea
http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?rubrique260
http://tendancecoatesy.wordpress.com/2011/12/19/kim-jong-il-a-socialist-obituary/
South Korea has evolved into a fairly standard bourgeois state.While opposed to Imperialist intevention, I consider it unlikely given China.I do worry about the bomb and missles. Nutters anywhere with a bomb are a cause of concern.Do we need a pretext for Sarajevo 1914. I await with amusment talk of the workers bomb.Perhaps the Kims are Dr. Strangeloves
The droves of stickies on this site see unaware of the Party’s ‘line’ on the DPRK.
Seems they have forgotten how democratic centralism works?
Just to keep everyone updated and on the same hymn sheet, this is what you Sticks should be promoting in your polemics with your trotskyite and social democrat friends –
http://www.solidnet.org/13-international-meeting/13-imcwp-resolutions/2411-resolution-in-support-of-the-workers-party-of-korea-and-the-korean-people-in-their-struggle-to-build-a-great-powerful-and-prosperous-socialist-state
Are there droves of stickies on this site? I always felt there were droves of people calling other people stickies.
Sticks with …trotskyite …friends
Shorely Shome Mistake ??!!
Thanks for the TIPS PJ
I don’t get to see the bourgeois media that often these days (I’ve spent the last few months living in a seminary in West Africa – long story, don’t ask), but I did catch a CNN report on Kim Jong Un’s accession to the throne . . .
And to me he looked a bit. . . simple. Which should an interesting twist to the current affairs of the Korean peninsula.
I have tried to keep out of this debate as it descended into farce, but as I see it there are two serious points here which cannot go unchallenged. Firstly the duty of all socialists is to give solidarity to individuals who wrongly find themselves in the sight-hairs of the ‘mans’ legal system. My support for Sean Garland, like many other comrades, was based on this most basic of socialist principles.
Secondly we have no socialist duty to support our enemies, enemies, no matter what. We need to make a conscious decision on this, based on political principles, not the current geo political situation, although of course we must consider this when making our decision.
North Korea is not a socialist state, nor is it a bourgeoise liberal democracy where we should defend the democratic and economic rights workers in struggle have gained down the decades.
( I would remind the comrade who boasted here NK workers have the right to work, the right to work in itself is not a virtue worth defending. Millions of men women and children had work in the concentration camps, is that a right worth defending, of course not. What we defend is the right of democratic accountability in the work place)
NK is a rather grubby hereditary, military-political, dictatorship, with a single party bureaucracy which lives high on the hog whilst workers live poorly in comparison to their neighbours in south Korea. Rather than seed corn a healthy agricultural base and a realistic industrial core, the fantasists who run NK prefer to waste financial and human resources on grandiose projects like missiles and nuclear power, which are totally unnecessary as China guarantees this statelets existence, without this guarantee NK would have been history long ago, missiles or not.
Some of the arrogance displayed by those who support the ridiculous Ruritanian regime in NK is stunning, they give their support under the cover of international solidarity, whilst openly admitting this silly state-let would not be for them. Some solidarity. It is fine and dandy for Korean workers to live in this dump, but hey not good enough for their Irish comrades. Unbelievable.
I canot let the posting of the Galloway video pass without comment. George at his best can be impressive, but at his worst he is a stalinist groupie who worships at the alter of uncle Joe and his successors.
In this video he talks up Putins Russia, a nation of corrupt and criminal oligarchs, the Stalinist State capitalism of China which has turned it into the main supply chain of the West’s cheap labour, the Chinese government does not even recognise independent free trade unions, the feed chain of democratic socialism and internationalism, need I really say more.
Lets take a brief look at how Japan industrialised and democratised after WW2. Whilst far from perfect, a civil society was built both top down ‘and bottom up,’ and free trade unions and electoral politics were an integral part of this process. none of this is happening in China, when the lid blows its outcome will be more like Russia than Japan, A mockney democracy run by corrupt politicians, the secret police and oligarchs and backed by a military industrial elite.
Comrades, comrades, comrades, if we on the left are to regain the trust of the masses it will be by widening the democratic envelope, not reducing it still further, and certainly not by supporting corrupt and ghastly governments overseas. Workers can smell dictatorship and understand instinctively to para phrase an old beard, when fascism takes hold, for the workers there will not be enough passports to go around. This is the main reason why working class people have never historically support fascism.
Just to add to your general critique which I think is spot on Mick… The thing that gets me about these sort of discussions is that the more extreme the deviation from what most of us would consider socialism into outright reaction the louder we’re meant to cheer in solidarity.
Militarisation of a society and economy – we must applaud.
Hypercapitalist approaches to labour [or if one likes, the working class] – we must applaud louder.
Trampling of human rights – we must applaud even louder.
Dynastic political system – we must cheer it to the rafters and nod as we’re told how somehow this almost unbelievable deviation from socialism and socialist thought [at least as I understand it] is the epitome of resistance to the US and adherence to Marxism when in truth it’s simply the capture of a state by a political/military elite mouthing, but not in any sense believing, communist slogans and forcing an ideology upon a population who which no one with any choice would adopt the lifestyle of.
And then we’re informed that to dissent from viewing this as the socialist millennium is somehow a betrayal of our fundamental values?
The worst of it is the loyalty to something because those behind it claim to be Marxist when everything points to them being precisely the opposite.
+ 100
Great post OR.
http://www.solidnet.org/13-international-meeting/13-imcwp-resolutions/2411-resolution-in-support-of-the-workers-party-of-korea-and-the-korean-people-in-their-struggle-to-build-a-great-powerful-and-prosperous-socialist-state
The Workers Party signed. The CPOI seems not to have
Plus 1 to the Communist Party of Ireland – but nul points to the Workers’ Party, which ought to know better
Looking through the resolutions above The WP did sign the 6th resolution supporting the korean Workers Party and the peoples of N Korea in their struggle for Socialism but the WP didn’t sign the 9th resolution eulogising the dynastic Kim il Sung,neither did CPOI or the KKE.
If you don’t want to live in North Korea don’t defend it! Don’t even hum and haw defend it. It may give two fingers to the United States but so did fascist Germany and Japan.
Victory to the Workers!
p.s – Delighted Sean Garland isn’t being sent to the belly of the beast, I also don’t believe the Ireland he fought for looked one bit like North Korea.
“If you don’t want to live in North Korea don’t defend it!”
KBranno,
I think that’s in relation to on of my comments, is it?
Two parts to that answer so.
Firstly, I’m not sure that I “defended” the DPRK anywhere in my comments, however one might define “defend”.
Secondly, there are many places I wouldn’t particularly want to live in and for many varied reasons, in fact I’d go as far as saying that there are only a few places that I’ve ever visited that struck me sufficiently as being places that in an alternative life I wouldn’t mind giving a go in, so the point being that whatever you might have read into my statement there are layers of complexity around it that don’t necessarily lend themselves to the imposed simplification of web-debate.
This has been a strange “debate” and I hesitate to call it even that because there has been a lot of unloading without much argument actually. Apart from PJ’s helpful contribution which castigates WP members for not adhering to the party line, and a couple of comments from newbie Broderick who I’m not sure I’ve seen post here before, nobody else here has actually “defended” much about the DPRK. Unless calling it the DPRK instead of NK is read as “support”, or by making an objective remark about intersting aspects of a neutral third-party report compiled by a Russian consultancy firm on the trials and tribulations of foreign joint venture investors in the DPRK’s digital telecoms programme is sen as “support”.
On the bigger issue, I tend to agree personally that there’s an air of unreality about voicing uncritical support for the DPRK regime, but I would feel an element of hypocrisy (maybe that’s putting it too strongly) in being one-sidedly critical of that state while at the same time extolling virtues of Cuba for example. Difficulties feeding the population, check, passing the levers of power to family members, check, hostile aggression by the USA, check, economic difficulties of losing your major trading bloc, check. Similarities exist. Yet people are generally more comfortable with Cuba. Not that there aren’t differences in limits of extreme state behaviour of course, as rightly critiqued above by various commentators.
I go back to my original comment that without having been to the DPRK I’m not sure I’m in any position to voice unconditional criticism, while at the same time I agree that it’s somewhat unreal to voice uncritical support on that same basis.
As for democratic centralism and PJs point, it’s important for party members to act in accordance with party policy and not to publicly criticise party positions, but it’s also important to debate and discuss and have a healthy internal life within the party. It’d be one thing if Seán Garland posted here himself on behalf of the CEC of the WP and criticised the DPRK, it’s another matter altogether for some rank and file WP members to express their personal views. And if I’m wrong in stating that I expect I’ll receive an email telling me so
Given Garlands statement in another thread I would not be so sure.He says he gave advice on media. Harris must have been busy that day. Aitnionn ciarog, ciarog eile.
Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Éamon Gilmore (A former Workers’ Party TD) will not, it seems, be making a statement on the death on Kim jong-Il “North Korea does not have an embassy in Ireland – its British ambassador is accredited here – while the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs’ embassy in Seoul, South Korea is also accredited to Korea DPR.
Despite the two countries establishing formal diplomatic relations in 2003, the Department of Foreign Affairs has affirmed this afternoon that it had “no plans at this point to issue a statement in relation to the death of Kim Jong Il”.
http://www.thejournal.ie/a-closer-look-the-links-between-ireland-and-north-korea-308321-Dec2011/
Let’s hope this is a good precedent : Former British Supremo Margaret Thatcher will eventually meet the grim reaper, and the absence of an Irish Government Statement would do little harm. Some internet correspondents have helpfully suggesteed that Mrs Thatcher’s funeral should be privatized – a very fitting tribute.
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/12/21/petition-says-thatchers-funeral-should-be-privatised/
I am sure all Cedar Lounge Readers would be willing to set aside political differences and support Sunny Hundal’s modest proposal.
I’m surprised she’s getting a state funeral: surely, she can afford a private one.
“passing the levers of power to family members”
Last at the cross,
Not sure if your comparison with NK and Cuba are valid on the above, as Castro’s younger brother
was an important figure in his own right in both the overthrow of Batista and the revolutionary Cuban government, having had overall control of the military. Whereas the son and grandson of Kim Il-sung played no part in his rise to power and both only came to prominence when their fathers were approaching their last legs.
Myself I believe no party leader should hold the post for more than ten years, whether in government or opposition, after that the rot cannot but set in, human nature being what it is. By this I mean a self serving bureaucracy will eventually encompass, if not control the great leader as they accumulate the spoils from his table. The leader himself/herself will come to rely on fewer and fewer people, believing they themselves are infallible. In NK (and in a different way the USA) they seem to have taken this to a higher plane, by placing and idiot in the job, whom they can manipulate at will and parade before the people as the great leader.
Besides, if a leading radical politician cannot groom a viable successor in ten years they have failed in one of the most important parts of the job.
The left has failed to pay heed to this leadership role and time and again we have witnessed our leaders legacy turn to dust. From Chavez overseas, to SF in Ireland, and the SWP in the UK, the same leaderships have been in place for two decades and more and they are not the only ones.
So, Mr Rage, ‘no party leader should hold the post for more than ten years’ but should ‘groom a viable successor within ten years.’ Democracy, Putin style, in other words.
Clive
But in your rush to criticise you miss out one vital element, the electorates ability to say no, push off. I used the word groom intentionally, for is that not what any radical party should be doing, grooming young comrades for future leadership positions, not as happens far to often, using them to bolster the current leadership almost indefinitely, i e ‘democracy Putin style’..
You seem to have missed my point, as Putin has already served ten years plus, he would not be eligible for the presidential office under my suggestion. In any case, ‘democracy Putin style,’ is not democracy at all, the sleight of hand he is trying to pull was a holding position, and the Russian people do not seem up for it the second time around, as the old saying goes, taken for a fool once, shame on them, taken for a fool twice, shame on me.
@ OR
“But in your rush to criticise you miss out one vital element, the electorates ability to say no, push off”
Isnt that part of the problem. The electorate say push off but many on the left dont read the leaves and wonder whats going wrong. The shinners at least can point to their project being strengthened where as SWP could harldy say the same.
The electorate have spoken but they went unheeded.
41.que
I think you have a point, in the past we always looked for lame excuses as to why our vote was often pitifully small, although hopefully this is less so today. Comrades have recognised you cannot do what the bourgeoise politicians do and arrive in a constituency just before an election and hope to get mass support.
The bourgeoise parties had the advantage over the left back then as they already had a viable local party apparatus on the ground, the fact we failed to recognise this fact, seeing electoral politics as nothing more than a propaganda tool is another reason why we failed to gain support.
In many was on this issue SF, Tony Gregory and people like Joe Higgins have been an example to emulate, electoral politics is not a sprint to the finish but to be successful consists of often years of hard work on the ground. Despite disappointing result so far, especially in England we are beginning to understand this.
In many ways we are in exciting times as for the first time voters are prepared to consider voting for non mainstream party’s. Sadly, unlike In Ireland, in England we still do not have an electoral coalition worthy of the name.
Sadly, unlike In Ireland, in England we still do not have an electoral coalition worthy of the name.
Nor do they have a proportional representation system which enabled the ULA gain electoral representation.
Shamefully the ULA’s cothinkers in England opposed recent opportunities to make the UK’s electoral system more representative!
There was no proposal to make the British electoral system more proportional. There was a proposal to switch to just about the only electoral system which is not an improvement on first past the post, one which favours centre-ground parties and actually makes it harder for radical parties to win seats.
Socialists in Brirain, not being credulous sorts who take Liberal Democrat claims at face value, rightly opposed the change.
The change would have made it more proportional, and therefore more reflective of the actual democratic wishes of the British people. Whether those left wing parties actually stood to gain from it should have been neither here nor there.
No, Blissett. AV with single member constituencies is not more proportional than first past the post. Neither is a system of proportional representation, and neither is even a semi-proportional system like multi-member STV.
It is a common mistake amongst Irish people to think that the semi-proportionality in our system comes from preference voting, when in fact it comes from the combination of preference voting with multi-member constituencies. In the absence of the latter, preference voting is neither more nor less proportional than fptp. Single seat AV is essentially fptp with an added seat bonus for “centre ground” parties.
[...] post started as a response to CMK’s question on the Sean Garland thread, but as the response got bigger and bigger I thought that a new post might be more appropriate than [...]
Garland: US set me up for backing Kim Jong-il
Evan Short
Photo captions: Garland says he met Kim Jong-il; right, the late leader’s funeral procession
IN HIS first interview since winning an extradition case against the United States, Seán Garland, a former leader of the Official IRA, has claimed he was being “set up” due to his support for North Korea and the late Kim Jong-il.
Garland said he had met Kim Jong-il “a number of times” and had advised his father, Kim Il-sung, but he played no role in a suspected Marxist plot to destabilise the US dollar by distributing counterfeit currency. On December 21, the High Court rejected an application by the US authorities to extradite Garland, now the treasurer of the Workers’ Party, for questioning over the distribution of the so-called “superdollar”, a high-quality forgery of a $100 bill alleged to have originated in North Korea.
America alleges the counterfeits were passed from China to Russia, before being distributed in the UK and Ireland by a criminal gang based in Birmingham and by the remnants of the Official IRA. It is claimed the Official IRA passed off the notes to unsuspecting bureaux de change around the country. The US claims one of Garland’s “coconspirators” has told investigators he was given $250,000 (€193,000) in a Moscow hotel in 1998 by Garland, a former Workers’ Party president.
Garland, 77, denied this week he had any involvement in the alleged forgery operation. He believes he is being targeted because of his close ties with North Korea. “I met Kim Jong-il a number of times but it was at official receptions,” he said. “I shook his hand but he never said a word. I never heard him speak. I met his father, Kim Il-sung, and spoke with him on a number of occasions.”
Garland said he expected the US to appeal against the extradition verdict after Justice John Edwards delivers his reasons on January 13 for opposing the application. Now living in Co Meath, Garland was arrested in 2005 in Belfast as he attended the Workers’ Party annual conference.
After being granted bail he escaped to the Republic of Ireland, where he was arrested in 2009. Since then he has fought moves to have him extradited to America.
He said the US Department of Justice had refused to show him its evidence, saying they would only release it in a Washington court. He also claims allegations against him were leaked to the American media.
“It started off with a report in a newspaper about some spy plane recording myself and a Chinese Communist party official having a secret meeting in China, and this plane is supposed to have recorded our conversations, which alerted the CIA and FBI,” he said.
“At that time they were saying it was China and Seán Garland, and then it became North Korea and Seán Garland, so they were trying to hang the story on something.”
Garland said he still supports “the people’s struggle” in North Korea. He said that he had made frequent trips to Pyongyang to advise the North Korean government and to facilitate meetings with western politicians. Among the issues he advised on was how the media worked in the West. One piece of advice was to quit full-page advertisements in The Irish Times with statements from Kim Il-sung as “nobody was reading [them]“.
He dismissed the accusation that the Official IRA was still in existence or that it played any role in distributing forged currency in Ireland.
“When the ‘officials’ began their ceasefire there was never any formal announcement,” he said. “People just left and it died a death.”
A North American News Report on the Seán Garland Case : “Irish may try IRA veteran over North Korean scam”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505245_162-57367449/irish-may-try-ira-veteran-over-north-korean-scam/ –
Is this an example of passing the hot potato from the courts into the lap of the government?
I don’t know where this idea that he was on a rare visit to NI in 2005 has suddenly come from in the last few weeks. He was up regularly in the months before that Ard Fheis, including meeting ministers IIRC. That made the timing of the arrest all the more political. I suspect one person wrote this, and then others just lifted it.