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Deserters songs: Irish soldiers who deserted to the British Army in World War Two January 26, 2012

Posted by WorldbyStorm in Irish History, Irish Politics.
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The issue of those soldiers who deserted from the Defence Forces to the British army during World War II has come back into the spotlight. What’s of particular interest to me is not so much the issue as the response to it – and some of that I’ll discuss elsewhere. But the issue has to be addressed.

It’s difficult to not feel some human sympathy for those who deserted for whatever reason. But the problem is what principle other than sympathy is at work here?

Because it’s difficult to discern any other than the view that Britain’s needs, or actually the inclinations of those individual soldiers, were greater than those of this state. And that seems to me to be very very shaky ground upon which to construct a defence of their actions.

Joseph Quinn had a piece recently in the IT that argued:

The story can count itself as another sad chapter in the history of the State, but an important question remains unanswered. How does one define desertion if it takes place in a country whose government’s stated position is a policy of strict neutrality, while almost every nation in the same hemisphere is at war?

This seems to me to be an ahistorical reading of the situation. The immediate answer is we define it as desertion, because the context, short of war crimes – and this by the way is legislated for in international law, is irrelevant.

If, for example, the campaign, was arguing for the pardon of any Irish soldiers who had deserted the British army to defend their homeland, those hypothetical soldiers would have each faced imprisonment of six months to three years as the customary punishment. And in other armies the sanctions were considerably worse.

But of course there’s more.

5,000 is quite tiny in relation to the mobilised British armed forces during World War II. The figure of 3.5 million is generally accepted to be the number who served at one time or another between 1939 and 1945 in the British Army. Whatever about individual motivation and individual heroism and sacrifice in various circumstances their general contribution could only have been minimal. So to paint this in existential terms from the point of view of the British state is a mistake.

But to some degree that is what is being done. And in doing so it neatly sidesteps the question that this was an existential issue for this state.

Éire was a small impoverished state with limited resources. The main resource that it had in military terms was numbers of men able to serve in the army. Obviously they would have been a thin defence in terms of any effort by the major protagonists to land on these shores, but their nuisance value should not be entirely underestimated, at least in blunting an invasion or forestalling one. So from an Irish perspective the ability to put the largest possible number of personnel into uniform was central. This was the defence, much more so than invocations of neutrality.

But in all this it seems to be forgotten that British national interest saw no issue at all in detailing comprehensive plans to invade the South in order to forestall a German invasion [as noted by Dr. X they invaded Iceland in May 1940] – and it hardly needs mentioning that had the opportunity/necessity arisen the Germans would have invaded.

And that leads to a linked point. Neutrality, whatever some of the rhetoric now emanating from various quarters, was inextricably positioned in relation to Britain. For all the public complaints from Churchill (and more hypocritically – given the late and forced entry of the US to the war – David Gray, the US ambassador to Dublin who seems to have developed a near-pathological aversion to Éire and belief that of some sort of collusion with the Nazi’s was extant) the reality was of incredibly, and I use the word advisedly, strong links at military and military intelligence levels between the UK and Éire, the extent of which have taken decades to emerge in full, much less to be acknowledged in general debate on this topic. Given the history between the two states in the preceding two decades this was a remarkable turnaround. Note too the extremely strong economic links – one telling anecdote is that the regular Collinstown/Liverpool Aer Lingus service was often filled by business men involved in the lucrative cattle trade, an anecdote that is probably not that far from the truth.

But neutrality was a deliberately chosen course which, in retrospect, seems to have been the best possible way for the state to survive. Had it thrown in its lot with the British this state would have been unable to defend itself, and this would have placed a corresponding pressure upon the British to take up that burden. Given how stretched that state was in the early years of the war it is hard to see the military justification. But politically that was absolutely impossible. It is not a case of an Irish population that was pro-German, though that undercurrent did, without question, exist and waxed and waned depending on the progress of the war, as much as an Irish population that saw an overtly pro-British stance as anathema – given the historical legacy and the reality of partition. And while it is easy to paint this in atavistic colours at this remove, the grand narrative of a war against fascism was simply not extant then as it is now, and how could it be with a US that was neutral until 1941, a Soviet Union that signed a pact with Nazi Germany and a Britain whose political classes largely were acquiescent or appeased German expansionism during the mid to late 1930s and who were palpably unwilling to go to war. To allow many of the inhabitants of Éire a degree of scepticism during this period is far from unreasonable.

Ironically, partition offered both Éire and the United Kingdom a way through with a means of projecting British power further into the Atlantic to protect vital convoys. So better by far to allow the status quo to persist, an Irish neutrality which was effectively pro-British in intent and effect [one of the most fascinating aspects of this is the way in which De Valera is painted as anti-British, when the historical record would suggest that the issue of Irish independence aside he was in fact mildly Anglophile throughout his life].

So perhaps what we see here is a reification of British national interests over Irish national interests. But what we also see is an effort to diminish Irish agency. For all its myriad failings the government of the day was a democratically elected one and more broadly this in the context of societies where desertion was regarded in a particularly negative light [and conscientious objection as well, it’s quite enlightening to look at the situation of those who sought that status in Britain during the same period, and the attitude of the military and the broader society to them].

Quinn argues that:

Soldiers such as Shannon and Kehoe, who, for whatever motive, contrary to the precise definition of desertion, abandoned a post of safety for a post of extreme danger, suffered consequences that were not only harsh, but entirely unnecessary – the danger to Ireland, and the wider world had long receded.

There is nothing imprecise about the definition of what those soldiers did. It’s only by modifying the term desertion – in frankly an unconvincing way – that that case is sustainable.

Tom McGurk in the Sunday Business Post puts it quite well. He notes the evasiveness over the concept of ‘desertion’ and also some of the unusual political agenda’s that appear to have entered the campaign. He continues:

We should, of course, pardon the deserters – but it should be done in a way that also recognises and distinguishes the service given by the 40,000 full-time and the almost 200,000 part-time soldiers who didn’t leave the country in war-time.

Furthermore it would help if the campaigners were to accept that what the 5,000 deserters did was wrong. Then we could all happily consign this episode to the footnotes of our history.

I’m probably slightly less generous than he. I wonder is there a concept of a conditional pardon, but granted some gesture is probably the right way to engage with this at this point. But his central point remains. Whatever the rhetoric what happened was wrong and that should be faced up to before this goes forward.

Comments»

1. FergusD - January 26, 2012

From what I have heard the treatment of teh deserters after the war, and tehir families, was way to harsh but I agree what state could possibly turn a blind eye to desertion from its armed forces. What other state ever has?

The comments in the media do smack of another agenda – an attack on Iteland’s neutrality, not just then, but also now.

AFAIK know at the outbreak of WW2 Holland, Denmark, Norway etc were neutral, they hoped to stay out of it. Germany invaded, which changed it for them, but otherwise who knows?

And was it really an anti-fascist war?

EWI - January 26, 2012

The comments in the media do smack of another agenda – an attack on Iteland’s neutrality, not just then, but also now.

There’s definitely an elemnt of that from the Irish establishment’s ‘discovery’ that Irish people had once served in the British Army. I mean, who knew!

There is, however, a strong element of pro-British commentators here using it for political advantage – and much of the commentary in the UK is motivated by an ugly anti-Irish sentiment (“Spitting On the Graves” and all the rest of that crap).

2. Dr. X - January 26, 2012

Given that the only fascism could have been extirpated from the earth was (by 1939) through war, I’d have to say yes.

Which shouldn’t stop us pointing out the ambiguities of certain players on the allied side.

Years ago, the Irish Times letters page carried a note about the operations of US multinationals in the Third Reich. The next day the US ambassador wrote in, rubbishing these claims on the grounds that there were no multinational corporations before the war.

So much for that, I thought.

Years after that, I picked up a copy of Newsweek which had a big feature on . . . the operations of US multinationals (Ford, Coca-cola, IBM) in the Third Reich.

Was there any way those lads could have resigned from the Free State army and then slipped over the border and joined HM Forces without deserting?

EWI - January 27, 2012

Was there any way those lads could have resigned from the Free State army and then slipped over the border and joined HM Forces without deserting?

You can of course apply to be discharged (only officers can ‘resign’), but in a time of national emergency with invasion or attack a very real threat…?

3. Dr. X - January 26, 2012

Wikipedia (which I ban my own students from citiing) has this to say on the post-war punishment of the deserters.

“On 18 October 1945 Thomas F. O’Higgins moved to annul the order.[66] He did not condone desertion, but felt that the order was specifically awarding harsh punishment to those deserters who had served in the Allied forces. General Richard Mulcahy also spoke against the Order, disagreeing with the way in which it applied to enlisted men and not to officers. However, despite the arguments put forward by O’Higgins and Mulcahy, the Dáil voted in favor of the order.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#Punishment_of_Irish_Army_deserters

So were the punishment measures passed or not?

EWI - January 26, 2012

The Irish Times is forced to resort to arguments that are pretty weak beer in pursuit of this latest attempt to rehabiliate the BA. I see today. One example:

At that time, taoiseach Éamon de Valera used the Emergency Powers Act to bypass the military authorities and deal directly with the returning soldiers. Who knows what his motives were, but the Army included a high proportion of “Free State” officers who might have regarded their former comrades in a more benign light.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0126/1224310758024.html

Ad hominems are fine for us Internet users, but that the IT feels the need to resort to them suggests that this ‘campaign’ is puffed up by hot air and not much else, and would deflate at the slightest pinprick of counter-argument (they also trot out the ‘reassuring unionists’ line. I expect to soon see the argument that it’ll help tourism as well.).

4. WorldbyStorm - January 26, 2012

My mother’s second cousin was in the RAF during WW2, flew Lancasters IIRC. The story I was told was that the crew he was part of after various bombing runs over Germany they couldn’t continue. They were all court martial led, I think they were imprisoned and he was never able to work in British aviation subsequently. He carved out a career in Africa and the Middle East.

I was always conflicted by that tale. I admired their willingness to stand up for their beliefs while thinking th RAF was well within its rights to sanction them( and that the anti fascist aspect of the war wasn’t unimportant), so in a way I think that informs my attitude to the Irish soldiers at least in part.

CMK - January 26, 2012

The death rate in RAF bomber command was ca. 50%. No wonder they refused to fly any further missions. I’d say the Ministry of Defence files in Whitehall are stuffed with refusals to fly, desertions, bombers ‘getting lost’ over the North Sea and circling for a few hours before heading home etc.

I remember seeing something on the BBC about how there isn’t one memorial in the UK to bomber command – alone among the branches of the UK armed services for WWII. The only memorial is in a village in Holland. The brits don’t want to publicise too much the activities of the branch of their armed services! Certainly, accounts of German cities under night bombing are not pretty.

WorldbyStorm - January 26, 2012

I’m sure that was part of it, though the sense I had was that they were sickened by the process of bombardment.

I wouldn’t doubt you re Bomber Command.

One thing we hear little of these days is the acronym LMF, Lack of Moral Fibre. How that was applied and how that fits into neat little comfy narratives sixty years on from the war where it’s presented as a glorious war against fascism is an interesting question isn’t it?

CMK - January 27, 2012

‘One thing we hear little of these days is the acronym LMF, Lack of Moral Fibre. How that was applied and how that fits into neat little comfy narratives sixty years on from the war where it’s presented as a glorious war against fascism is an interesting question isn’t it?’

It is. And I suspect the more WWII recedes into the past and the more archives are opened up our perspective on that whole period will change, possibly dramatically.

Certainly, Mark Mazower’s ‘Dark Continent’ was a real shock with its recounting of how eager the Western powers were to co-operate with unreconstructed fascists – particularly in Italy where fascist era judges were sending former partisans to prison into the late 1940′s.

5. Starkadder - January 26, 2012

“…and conscientious objection as well, it’s quite enlightening to look at the situation of those who sought that status in Britain during the same period, and the attitude of the military and the broader society to them.”

As the Irish Free State has never adopted military conscription,
Conscientious Objector status has not, AFAIK, been an issue in this country.

In WWII, CO status was not available in the Axis countries (look
at what happened to poor Franz Jagerstatter) or Stalin’s Russia. Britain and the US did handle this issue more fairly,with the option
of “alternative service” taken up by most COs in those countries.
Though a few COs still ended up in jail.

The Sept/Oct issue of “History Ireland” had a feature
on this issue of WWII deserters in Ireland that was fairly well-balanced.

WorldbyStorm - January 26, 2012

I thought it was very good Starkadder.

NollaigO - January 29, 2012

History Ireland, a few years ago, had an excellent article by an Australian historian countering the many neounionist criticisms of the Irish state’s role in WWII. Does anyone remember the precise edition of the magazine?
There were examples of deserters from the US Army who joined the British forces in the early years of WWII. They never got a pardon.
Even the Cruiser [Captain my Captain, in the ex senator's eulogy] conceded in his later years, that Irish neutrality was a correct position “given our history”.

An anti fascist war ?!
Why then were German Jewish women refugees interned in the Isle of Man during WWII?
Why was the MS St. Louis, carrying 936 Jewish refugees from Hamburg in 1939, refused permission to land its passengers in either the Caribbean, the US or Canada and had to return to Antwerp?

6. Laurence Ginnell - January 27, 2012

What I like about this case, and especially that IT article, is how it shows the bankruptcy of revisionist history. It is based on nothing more than myths and ahistorical reasoning. If that’s the calibre of research coming from Irish universities it’s hard not to accept the neoliberal argument that they should be privatised and people only taught ‘useful’ subjects like computers or engineering or what have you.

The wider take up of the case among the usual suspects is simply an ideological crusade to undermine the legitimacy of the State.

The State has no business pardoning these men. They committed an offence. It’s pretty black and white. Whether or not their punishment was unduly harsh is a completely separate issue. They should not be pardoned because the punishment was too harsh.

7. Dr. X - January 27, 2012

People who commit offences can still be pardoned – that’s what a pardon is, surely?

The correct political response would be to link to a pardon for those interned by the state during the emergency, and an affirmation of Ireland’s military neutrality, and of the political necessity of the Irish state’s neutrality during the war.

8. Brian Hanley - January 27, 2012

‘The wider take up of the case among the usual suspects is simply an ideological crusade to undermine the legitimacy of the State.’

That must be why Sinn Féin supports the demand for a pardon then? Typical Shinners, jumping on the revisionist bandwagon…

Eamonn - January 27, 2012

Sinn Féin have only recently (20 or 30 years) come round to the idea that the (Free) State is a legitimate entity. But it is a bit surprising to see a meeting of minds between Sinn Féin and others such as unionists/revisionists who, for different reasons, cast doubt on the legitimacy of the Free State/RoI. Then again, perhaps not so surprising when you think of Northern Sinn Féin’s very strong “Hibernian” element for whom Catholic grievance – rather than independence as such – has been the driving force. That element is opposed to British power only to the extent that it is at least conditionally aligned with Unionism.

Eamonn - January 27, 2012

What’s also surprising is that the Coalition parties used the sovereignty issue to get into government. But, in government, they are on track to undermine the single most significant expression of Irish sovereignty – neutrality in the WW2 Great Power conflict (in which fascism as such was a side issue or non-issue – the fascist governments of Spain and Portugal were not involved in the conflict, and were very quickly absorbed into the camp of the Western Allies when the latter went into cold war mode against the Ally which actually defeated Hitler).

EWI - January 27, 2012

That’s a very good point. The maintenance of an independent, non-aligned stance during WWII – in the face of British threats – really was the defining turning-point in establishing the state as free of British rule.

The declaration of the Republic of Ireland a few years later was nearly just a formality.

Blissett - January 30, 2012

I think thats motivated by an excessive desire to seem magnanimous, and not to be seen as petty, or just being blunt anti-british nationalists. I dont believe that position enjoys unanimous support within the party mind you

WorldbyStorm - January 30, 2012

That’s interesting, Blissett.

9. NollaigO - January 29, 2012

I see in Saturday’s Irish Times, a Geoffrey Roberts [formerly a CPGB Eurocommunist] in an attempt to portray WWII as a war against fascism “corrects” Tommy Graham:

..Mr Graham is also incorrect to state that neutrality was the favoured policy of every state at the time. All the member states of the British Commonwealth except Ireland,declared war on Germany voluntary in 1939.

This assertion of “voluntary” is blatantly wrong.

Take India for example: When England went to war on September 3, 1939, the Dominions had the right to decide in their legislatures whether to fight. Ireland remained neutral; Canada waited a few days to show their independence. India, with colonial status, had no such choice. India went to war when England went to war.
Rather than support the war, the Congress Party pulled their deputies out of the legislatures. Gandhi and Nehru tied Indian participation in the war to Indian independence. Rioting and strikes led to the outlawing of the Congress Party in August 1942. In 1942, Sir Stafford Cripps on his first mission to India made on behalf of the British Government his offer of independence after the war in exchange for cooperation, but the Indian political parties rejected his proposals. The Indian National Congress launched the “Quit India” movement.

Clearly the Indian nation also needs a national self loathing campaign on the model of the very successful Harris/Myers one in Ireland

acknefton - January 29, 2012

I think you have to draw a distinction between this campaign and other ‘revisionist’ enterprises.
The legislation effecting sanctions was brought through emergency legislation which would lapse at the end of hostilities, and was achieved with a considerable amount of legal smoke and mirrors. The legal sanctions would never survive a court challenge.
As to the effects of neutrality, the policy got a favourable write up in the Official war history of MI5, recently published and edited by Eunan O Halpin.
As to comrade Roberts, i would love to see his opinions on events between 1 august 1939 and 6 june 1941 when his party policy was one of ‘imperialist war’ and ‘revolutionary defeatism’. I think a number of comrades had to have their brains rebooted by King Street HQ in that period.
As to war aims – as cde. Roberts well knows the war started to save Poland from occupation by a totalitarian power- try out that as a conversation at the check out of your local Polsky Sklep!

FergusD - January 30, 2012

A leading CPGB member and journalist, I forget who, recounts how one day he was putting the party line to fellow journos about how the war was imperialist in nature (correct IMHO). He was then away without access to party papers etc over a critical period (a day?), then returned to work where his fellow journos asked him to expound again on the CP line, so tehy could get it straight, after which they informaed him of the “Great Patriotic War”. It was quite a shock.

WorldbyStorm - January 29, 2012

I thought that was a desperately poor intervention by Roberts in the debate on his part.

There’s the point too that those states inside blocs, such as the Commonwealth, etc went largely with those states that led those blocs [though some interesting divergences when the Vichy regime came to power in France - speaking of which the US regarded Vichy as the legitimate govt of France until Operation Overlord!]. So for most of the Commonwealth to go to with the UK isn’t that strange. But then he ignores the countries outside blocs like the Commonwealth – Scandinavia, the Iberian peninsula, Switzerland, Turkey, etc etc which remained neutral like Ireland.

His line about ‘Later in the war many other states chose to join the Allied coalition, but not de Valera’s Ireland’ merely points up a fairliy opportunist approach by some states who once the winning side was evident were willing to align with it. One can critique de Valera for many things, but he was at least consistent.

And most obviously the US [while the USSR was locked in a pact with the Nazi's until it was invaded]. One could as easily use his line the US ‘was supporting Britain virtually all the means at its disposal short of war’ for this state given our parlous situation, our weak armed forces, etc by its military, intelligence and other links.

EWI - January 29, 2012

speaking of which the US regarded Vichy as the legitimate govt of France until Operation Overlord!].

And my, didn’t they try to stop de Gaulle at every turn. He was certainly right to suspect the motives of the “liberating” anglophone Allied armies and pursue an independent French liberation after D-Day.

WorldbyStorm - January 29, 2012

That’s a great point EWI. The animosity to de Gaulle [who despite problematic aspects I'd have a bit of time for] was something to see.

Dr. X - January 29, 2012

If memory serves, Washington wanted to rule France as an occupied enemy territory.

http://rall.com/longarticle_011.htm

DSCH - January 30, 2012

Brilliant OP as per usual wbs. As regards the (white) commonwealth countries it should be noted that it was only countries which were originally New Britains overseas, that enthusiastically signed up to the British war effort. In Canada, in a referendum Quebec voted against allowing the national government introduce conscription. The future Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau noted in his memoirs that French Canadians (implicitly himself included) saw the war as a Great Power conflict that had nothing to do with them.

In South Africa the (white) political nation divided more or less on ethnic lines, the Afrikaners opposed the war while British settlers supported it, the losers of this internal conflict would emerge to dominate the post war state.

The struggle against Nazism has become the foundation myth of the modern world, in which humanity, led by Britain naturally, redeemed its sinful nature by rallying to defeat the greatest evil in history. Yet without exception all states behaved according to perceived national self interest. Indeed more countries in Europe voluntarily went to war on the side of Germany than against it, though these countries did not have full freedom of manoeuvre.

It is interesting that a democratic system of government, far from propelling a country into the war on the side of good against evil restrained countries from entering the war. Sweden and Switzerland remained neutral. There were two elections in Ireland during the war and in neither campaign did the clamour to enter the war raise its head. Indeed the party to whom pro British elements looked for succour (in vain), Fine Gael, performed abysmally, and this party too was pro neutrality. Democracy in Ireland has obviously allowed the pathological tendencies of the natives to flourish, much as it will in the Arab world where the irrational natives will fail to sign off on Zionist / American messianic agendas!

As for the Arsenal of Democracy, the USA, the joint saviour of humanity, FDR, gave an assurance during the 1940 election that he would not sent American soldiers overseas. He was pandering to popular opinion against his own instincts. Thus American democracy proved to be a strategic asset to the German war effort which the Germans squandered by declaring war on the USA. The difference between lend lease and direct American involvement was a German or Soviet occupied Western Europe, rather than Allied liberation.

By far the most interesting democracy during the war was Finland. Arguably the most heroic war time democracy, its per capita military death toll was five times that of the USA and two and a half times that of Britain. It fought heroically against an overwhelmingly mighty neighbour to recover its national territory and was allied with……Germany. It served as a model as to how a truly heroic Irish state might have behaved during the war!

A final point in this longwinded rambling post is to note the general mythologizing of the heroic British and American democratic citizen soldier. Present day British and political discourse is littered with references to the heroism and sacrifice of their soldiers in various current overseas adventures. It sounds so anachronistic given that modern liberal democratic societies have had their martial virility softened by consumerism, political correctness and the autonomous individual’s sense of entitlement. Yet during WW2 can anyone seriously argue that when it came to the heroism and sacrifice of their armies or the resilience of their civilian populations that the great despotic states, Germany, the USSR and Japan outperformed the USA and a chronically overrated Britain?

DSCH - January 30, 2012

The last point should read that the USSR, Germany and Japan outperformed the USA and Britian in the old heroism stuff.

Really should stick to lurking!

FergusD - January 30, 2012

What about Belgium, Holland, Denmark etc? Did they declare war alongside Britain and France? I thought they didn’t and were neutral and hoped to stay out of it – understandably. They were invaded of course, but as far as I know, and I could be wrong, they didn’t choose to join the war.

DSCH - January 30, 2012

Britain and France voluntarily declared war on Germany in 1939. The only other European state to voluntarily declare war on Germany during the entire war was Turkey, during the last few months of the war. I’m not sure if the Turks fired a shot.

Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and Finland fought with the Germans. They eventually joined the allies after they were defeated by the Allies or about to be invaded, as in the case of Italy.

Nationalist groupings seeking independence in the following countries supported Germany to some extent or other,

Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Croatia, Serbia (the chetniks eventually sided with Germans against Tito’s partisans), Flanders, Wallonia, Brittany, France (Vichy “liberated” the country from socialists and Jews!) and Ireland – where the pro-German IRA was crushed by the pro-German Irish state (if we accept the Shatter / British nationalist narrative of Irish neutrality.)

The pre invasion police forces in the following countries helped the Germans to run their respective countries during the occupation; France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark and Norway ,i.e. the police forces of “sacred” democracies.

Indeed the Danish Social Democratic party exercised the privilege of running the country under German occupation from 1940-1943!

All in all it suggests that the universal crusade against Nazism took place in a universe quite separate from the Europe of 1939-1945.

WorldbyStorm - January 30, 2012

DSCH, as always good to hear from you – that’s a great overview. And I’d entirely agree re Finland. One wonders does it receive the ire that the RoI does for its approach?

DSCH - January 30, 2012

Well according to Wikipedia *credibility collapses*, 19000 Soviet POWs perished in Finnish camps, 1000 of whom were executed. 4000 Soviet civilians died in camps from neglect.

In the tribunal of history however, Finland wasn’t a vassal state of Britain that failed to do her duty!

Ramzi Nohra 1 - January 30, 2012

re: Finland
I may have posted this link here before, apologies if so:
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/un-finnish-business-1.317886

Link from an Israeli newspaper on Jews who fought in the Finnish army – some were awarded the Iron Cross (all turned it down)

10. CL - January 29, 2012

The U.S didn’t enter the war until it was attacked. Ireland was not attacked.

WorldbyStorm - January 29, 2012

Very true. If it hadn’t been do you think it would have drifted in later or stayed out entirely.

Dr. X - January 29, 2012

And then you’ve got Argentina, which is pro-Axis for most of the war, but comes in on the Allied side in 1944, when it becomes clear who’s going to be the winner.

CL - January 29, 2012

Would the U.S. have gone in if there had not been a Pearl Harbor attack? i don’t know. counterfactuals are best left to sci-fi writers like Newt Gingrich.

Starkadder - January 29, 2012

Robert Fisk does mention a mooted Nazi plan to attack this
country, and we know the Nazis had made a note of the
number of Jews living in Ireland.

My late grandmother mentioned my grandfather had
sometimes expressed worries about the possibility of a Nazi attack during the Emergency.

11. Jim Monaghan - January 29, 2012

Portugal is always claimed as Britain’s oldest ally. I don’t recall what role it played. I see that imperialist historian Roberts has been wheeled out for the predictable rubbish.
The USSR vetoed Ireland application to join the UN until quite late on the grounds of our “failure”.

acknefton - January 29, 2012

Portugal leased bases in the azores to the Allies. Wolfram a key component in the production of armoured piercing shells , is found in Portugal, and the government allowed market forces free play and both allied and axis buyers operated freely
economic histories of this period are a bit thin on th eground

Dr. X - January 29, 2012

“Portugal remained neutral throughout the Second World War. In December 1942, the Japanese Army occupied the Portuguese territory of East Timor in the Pacific. Salazar refused to declare war on Japan but in 1943 did allow the Allies to use its territories in the Azores as military bases. ”

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWportugal.htm

12. WorldbyStorm - January 29, 2012

I’m sure there are those reading this who differ entirely with the broad analysis being presented here – indeed I’m surprised to a degree that there’s so much agreement so far, so I’m interested in their take on all this.

yourcousin - January 29, 2012

I’m just wondering whether this thread means that we will no longer be forced to suffer through posts and comments listing the great anti fascist triumphs of the red army if everyone is broadly in agreements of the pragmatic and often amoral decisions made by countries.

Dr. X - January 29, 2012

What if some of us see no contradiction in thanking the Soviet people for their role in defeating fascism, while at the same time distinguishing between them and the “pragmatic and often amoral” Stalin clique?

yourcousin - January 30, 2012

I would simply point out that the “good” red army did many, many bad things, regardless of the Stalin clique. I would also point out that fascism as an ideology was not defeated per se as Spain and Portugal continued to have fascistic governments.

I only bring this up because when reading this string of comments and some others regarding the red army you’d have thought there were two distinct conflicts going on.

WorldbyStorm - January 30, 2012

In a way there were though, were’ t there. In instrumental terms there was a fight against the expansionist version of fascism [though Portugal was no slouch as regards its colonies]. And there was also the conflict precipitated by the actions of the Third Reich initially, and later by the actions of Japan. And these were so distinct that the USSR only entered the war against Japan in August 1945. Stalin had agreed to this at Yalta, presumably this was about keeping Japan in the Western sphere of influence post war. In a way the levels of cynicism around all this are stunning. After all from the point of view of shortening the war in the East Soviet help would have been invaluable.

Agree entirely re red army that it had a mixed record, to put it at its mildest. But that said it was significant in its input into the conflict – though I’ve seen some data that suggests the US and UK alone could have taken down Germany given the weight of soldiers and materiel they were producing.

yourcousin - January 31, 2012

certainly the realities of the conflict were very different in different spheres, but the choreography surrounding how the red army is continually and constantly praised for their actions with obligatory caveats (natch), and how a relatively small grouping of men who fought for the same cause are chastised for abandoning a state that sat out is interesting. Because if one accepts the great evil that fascism represented then the context shifts from Ireland first, to the need to defeat fascism first, which is echoed all too often as a rebuttal to the litany of charges laid at the red army’s feet. Truthfully I don’t have a horse in this race, but the level of animus levelled at a group of men who in truth did Ireland no real harm and who did help in whatever small role to defeat Nazi Germany seems inconsistent with the general narrative of this environ.

WorldbyStorm - January 31, 2012

I don’t see animus in the way you do. Nor do I see a free pass for the Red Army on this thread, though I’m not saying there aren’t those who don’t see it that way on this site.

That said I think the ‘these men going to fight the important war’ trope is over egged. As I noted in the OP they made a fractional contribution to the Brtitish Army in the round whereas 5k deserting an Irish Army was a substantial number. And that’s the point, there seem to me to be two key aspects to this discussion. Firstly the nature of desertion and secondly the nature of the impacts of those desertions on both the Irish Army and the British. FOr the first I don’t accept it wasn’t desertion, for the second I think that there’s a massive over exaggeration of the dynamics at work in terms of their contribution to the Allied war effort and a significant diminuition of what their desertion potentially meant to this state at that point in time.

13. David Flynn - January 29, 2012

These men (deserters) were punished excessivly through pure spite. It was not as if the 26 counties had been occupied or suffered as other states. These men were not traitors-they did not take up arms against Ireland but fought the Nazis. I understand Sinn Fein taking a hunmanitarian virew on this.

Jim Monaghan - January 29, 2012

It is Britain who owes them a debt. Desertion is treason. Does anyone remember when Lambert (of the puppeter family) was arrested at Dover and accused of desertion (someone used his name). Britain remembers its deserters.

EWI - January 30, 2012

I’d be interested in hearing more detail in that one, Jim.

14. CL - January 30, 2012

Two Irishmen in the British Army find themselves in N.Africa chasing Rommel.
As they trudge through the desert Pat says to MIke: ‘You know, that De Valera is a great man.’
‘You’re right’ says Mike ‘he kept us out of the war’.

15. yourcousin - January 30, 2012

Also given the degree that most here are certain that the deserters were anything from “in the wrong” to downright “treasonous” I would wonder if their transgressions/crimes were wrong due to context or whether the act of desertion itself is what draws the ire of folks.

I ask because a few years ago there were a string of desertions to Canada by American service men who felt that the Iraq war was wrong. Would they be judged as harshly or again does it come back to context?

LeftAtTheCross - January 30, 2012

Context is everything.

16. Jim Monaghan - January 30, 2012

Lamber was returning home when he was arrested. It seemed someone had enlisted many years before using his name, got fed up and deserted.It must have been over 20 years ago. A mixup but it shows that bureaucracies have long memories.
Were our deserters subject to arrest and jail? I find the stuff on state employment rather gilding the lily. Jobs of any kind were in short supply.

17. John of Oldcastle - January 30, 2012

http://comeheretome.wordpress.com/2012/01/28/the-dublin-cinema-manager-who-became-the-only-irish-prisoner-of-dachau/#more-14390

Did the men who fought against Hitler in Europe really desert Ireland?
As for DSCH…oh, yeah…the SS were very heroic. Rats will fight if cornered.
You want heroics? The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, the partisans in northern Italy…and the boys on the beaches of Normandy.

FergusD - January 30, 2012

I don’t think we are discussing heroism. I don’t find it hard to believe that Brits, French, Americans, Germans, Soviets, Japanese acted with bravery in WWII and that Britisn soldiers and Taliban can act bravely in Afghanistan. That’s not the point.

DSCH - January 30, 2012

John of Oldcastle, are you familiar with the respective death tolls of the various belligerents in WW2? The performance of the German army in WW2 wasn’t just “heroic”; it was more “heroic” than that of the British or American armies. The “heroism” of the Japanese and Soviet armies was also more impressive than that of the Anglophone democracies. To suggest otherwise is just silly unhistorical British tabloid / Fox News propaganda.

I would contend that Britain and the USA were not capable of fighting a conflict of the scale and intensity of the German- Soviet war and remain democratic polities.

CMK - January 30, 2012

‘I would contend that Britain and the USA were not capable of fighting a conflict of the scale and intensity of the German- Soviet war and remain democratic polities.’

Yes, that is THE critical point. The conflicts on the Eastern Front different quantitatively and qualitatively from the relatively minor encounters on the Western Front in WW11. Vernichtungskrieg was not a core military principle of the Wehrmacht in Western Europe; it was in the Soviet Union. Anyone who has seen Klimov’s ‘Come and See’ might have noted that in the closing titles the figure of 690 villages were dealt with like the village depicted in the movie. Belorus was a relatively small Soviet Republic, but yet the scale of the war against civilians dwarfed similar events in the West. However, we may come to a time where the US/British air war on German cities is regarded with the same disgust that we now regard the activities of the SS and Einsatzgruppen in the Soviet Union. Probably not.

18. John of Oldcastle - January 30, 2012

‘The performance of the German army in WW2 wasn’t just “heroic”; it was more “heroic” than that of the British or American armies.’

NO, it wasn’t. For all their faults, the Allies, including the USSR, were fighting facism. The Germans, had they won, were setting up a slave state over much of eastern Europe, and part of their programme involved the systematic murder of an entire ethnic group. Fuck your heroic Germans. They were ultimately fighting to defend Belsen.

WorldbyStorm - January 30, 2012

I don’t believe DSCH is making a value judgement in the sense you seem to believe. To say that in terms of numbers, etc that many German soldiers acted heroically doesn’t seem to me to be that controversial. Is heroism something only those we agree with capable of? But then in some respects heroism is a bit of a stupid trait, isn’t it? And there’s no reason to see a problem in saying that heroism can be diverted to the wrong ends. That’s my take on most Germans involved. I exclude the Einsatzgruppen and the SS from this analysis.

In any case I’m not sure they on an individual, or for many of them collective, level were fighting to defend Belsen, albeit on some levels functionally that was the corollary of supporting the regime. I think given the terms that the propaganda of the previous two decades and more had painted it they were engaged in a war of initlally as CMK notes had strongly racialist overtones and subsequently as defeat drew near a defence of their homeland (which also had racialist overtones too come to think about it).

John of Oldcastle - January 30, 2012

The SS units were among the hardest fighters: ergo the most ‘heroic’ and every study of the Eastern Front shows the Wermacht to have as involved in mass executions of civilians as the SS units. The Nazis made no secret that this was a war of expansion, that the Slavs deserved no mercy and that the future was one of ‘hewers of wood and drawers of water’ under German rule. There is simply no comparison with the Allied effort in Europe and it is moral relativism gone mad to suggest otherwise.
The Finns, who fought only on their terms, are another case, but Germany’s other allies in the East engaged in butchery- see the Romanian occupation of Odessda for instance.
Why did the Nazi armies fight so hard in 1944-45 and why did they not just abandon the death camps and retreat? Why were they still trying to put Jews on trains from Budapest in early 1945? They were actually trying to physically wipe out as many people as they could.
As for terror bombing, well Warsaw in 1939 and Rotterdam in 1940, not to mention Guernica in 1937 were the template.

WorldbyStorm - January 30, 2012

I’m not disputing elements of the Wehrmacht acted in appalling ways as well. Nor am I trying to deny culpabilty by the Nazi’s for what they did. Nor indeed have I denied at any point the racialist aspects of the conflict, quite the opposite, and I’m well aware of the sheer insanity of the logistics as regards the closing part of the war in relation to the death camps.

But that’s evading the point I’m making that to ascribe the sense you do to the term ‘heroic’ is to I think perhaps misunderstand the point DSCH was making.

Or do you believe that ‘heroic’ is always synonymous with ‘good’?

19. Jim Monaghan - January 30, 2012

Unfortunately heroism is not reserved for the goodies.E.g Lee’s army fought well and heroically. They fought for slavery and their cause was horrible. I am glad Grant won even if he went on to become a very corrupt president.
The world is a better place because fascism was defeated. We have no need to defend say Dresden or the rape of German civilians in saying this.

20. CL - January 30, 2012

War crimes were committed on both sides. The victors don’t usually put on trial members of their own side for war crimes, just those from the losing side.

21. Joe - January 31, 2012

Going back to the Irish men who deserted the Army during the war and joined the British Army. I’ve been flicking onto broadsheet.ie recently and I’m christening this “the thread that made me sad”. I’m pretty much with yourcousin and the other dissenters in this debate.

Here’s my take on it. Probably all of these men didn’t join the British army to fight fascism but more for a sense of adventure, to fight in a real war, and also for similar economic reasons to the thousands of Irish people who emigrated for work during those years. They were young men and their motivation could have been quite similar to that of young Irish men who are still joining today to fight and experience “real action” in Afghanistan. Sad but true.

But as it turned out, those men who fought in the British Army in WW2 were on the right side. They played their part in defeating the greatest evil of recent history – Nazism. They can hold their heads up high. Yet when they came home, they were treated abominably by this state. Now I can understand why the state took the approach it did at that time.
But now, with the benefit of hindsight, we have decided to acknowledge these men’s role in the fight against Nazism and to pardon their desertion.
And in this discussion, it seems to me that journalists and politicians who support this are accused of being revisionists and West Brits. To me that’s sad, lazy nationalist kneejerkery.

LeftAtTheCross - January 31, 2012

Were there any deserters who joined other forces in WWII, other than those of Britain?

Any join the Wehrmacht? Any Irish POWs join one of those nationalist SS units?

Any join the Red Army? (Ok, that could have been logistical difficulties in that.)

Any join US forces? Or French (foreign legion)? Etc.

Was their treatment any different if so?

wolfhound - February 2, 2012

Yes they did…the US Forces. After the War those who joined the US Army were allowed to wear their uniforms in Ireland, whereas those who’d joined the British Army weren’t.

smiffy - February 1, 2012

Hmmm, I think that’s a bit harsh. In fact, part of the criticism of the journalists and politicians who support this is not that they are revisionists, but the opposite – that they’re employing received wisdom and myths about the War, and actually not being historically rigorous enough.

I don’t think it’s lazy to point out that no state acted nobly in relation to the War (whatever about the individuals who fought) and I don’t think it’s kneejerk to raise concerns about those who are using this issue as a wider lever to criticise the position taken by the Free State during the War itself, not just the treatment of the soldiers.

I would question the assumption that the returning soldiers were treated ‘abominably’. Those covered by the provision of the Emergency Powers Act were discharged automatically from the army, true, but given that they had left, that is hardly unreasonable. They were prevented from taking up employment in the State for seven years. Again, it’s a punishment, but it’s hardly the equivalent of being shot for desertion.

The decision to use the provisions of the Act in relation to these men was a pragmatic one, and not (in my view) unreasonable. Rather than go through the cost of court martialling each and every one, far simpler to use an administrative procedure, with a punishment far less severe than what could otherwise have been expected. Unless you believe that no punishment whatsoever was warranted. But with such a position, where do you draw the line. Would ever returning deserter have to have fought with the British army to receive a pardon, or just have signed up. What about those who joined the merchant navy? Or what about those who left the Free State army and found civilian work in Britain? Would the pardon also extend to them?

There is, though, a serious concern about the way the legislation was used against enlisted men, rather than officers.

A very important point was raised above. If these men and their families were living in penury in Ireland (and regardless of what they did, the state did have a responsibility to provide for their basic needs) then where was the British State, and why were they not providing financial support?

I don’t believe, and I don’t think anyone believes, that the state should pursue any further action against the men involved, who are still alive. But it’s not just kneejerk nationalism to argue that an independent state has a right to exercise its sovereignty, and I think calls for a blanket pardon (and it’s still unclear what the pardon might involve, as these men have not been convicted of anything, to the best of my knowledge) do a disservice both to those who served in the Free State forces throughout the period, as well as those Irishmen who fought in the War without deserting to od so.

WorldbyStorm - February 1, 2012

Entirely agree re the distinction between enlisted men and officers. That’s the most serious inequity here IMO.

Just to add a further thought, has anyone on this thread used the term ‘West Brit’? Nope. Not one. There’s been one use of the term ‘revisionists’ and that in the context of a post explaining why Sinn Féin in the Assembly voted in favour of the deserters.

I’m happy to call out atavistic behaviour where it actually occurs, but when it doesn’t that seems to me to be more a case of seeking error where there is none.

EWI - February 1, 2012

But now, with the benefit of hindsight, we have decided to acknowledge these men’s role in the fight against Nazism and to pardon their desertion.

You can tar this “lazy nationalist kneejerkery” all you please, but the fact remains that it’s being driven by people with a certain political world view hostile to our State (the British nationalist interventions in this debate make for extraordinary reading), with assistance from Mr. Shatter because it’s helpful to him getting a few licks in on Israel.

Jim Monaghan - February 1, 2012

“But as it turned out, those men who fought in the British Army in WW2 were on the right side.”
In general true but it also supposes none were involved in keeping India British. Also other places

22. Roger Cole - February 1, 2012

This is a really good debate, one of the best I read yet. However for me the issue is why Shatter has taken up this issue now, rather than the historical debate. I would contend that he is doing so in order to attack the values of Irish neutrality in 2012 because the Irish political elite, having destroyed the policy of neutrality in 2003 is about to ensure Irish participation in an imperialist war on Syria and Iran and to do so in alliance with Israel as well as the US. Shatter’s attack on Irish neutrality between 1939-45, has little to do with that era. It is about deliberately seeking to associate those of us who continue to advocate the tradition Irish independence, neutrality and democracy,
a tradition that goes back to the 1790′s with being “soft on fascism” a somewhat unusual concept from a member of Fine Gael. The focus needs to continue to be on opposing the 2012 variety of imperialism which is expressed by the EU/US/Israeli axis.

EWI - February 1, 2012

+1

smiffy - February 1, 2012

I think this might be over-egging the pudding, just a little. Irrespective of the substance of Shatter’s position (and let’s wait and see what he eventually comes out with on the deserters issue), it’s also the case that he simply happens to be the Minister for Defence at a time when interest in the subject has peaked with the publication of the Widders book and, particularly, with the BBC radio documentary.

It’s stretching the point to suggest that he has ‘taken up’ the issue. The issue has come up and he, as Minister, obviously has to respond. The nature of his response is, of course, another matter.

EWI - February 2, 2012

Trying to get us into NATO (not least through the dishonesty over what PfP is) has been on the agenda for some years now. Fianna Fáil was the main bulwark to this, and that’s long since breached under ‘fixer’ Bertie.

Will Labour really put up a fight?

23. Roger Cole - February 2, 2012

It is indeed the case that the political elite has being steadily integrating Ireland into the EU/US/NATO military structures for some time now which is why PANA was established in 1996 in order to oppose this process. However while because they were in government, the Fianna Fail/PD governments implemented these policies, it was Fine Gael that was the strongest advocate of these policies throughout this period. Labour has also done so, but less so, as witnessed by their support for the SF neutrality amendment in 2003. However, overall the only fight the Labour Party has done is to also support this process. If as a consequence Ireland takes part in the US/EU/Israeli war on Syria and Iran the consequence for a party dominated by the valuse of Walker rather than Connolly will not be good

24. Starkadder - February 2, 2012

The Irish Political Review has waded into this controversy
with characteristic modesty and lack of pretension:

If Fascism is to be the justification of desertion to the enemy, Minister should say something about the fact that his own party, Fine Gael, was a fascist party during the fascist era of the 1930s. He should also mention that the reason Ireland did not become fascist was that Fianna Fail (now described as the morally bankrupt party) held the ring for Parliamentary democracy throughout the 1930s.

And there was me thinking there were other reasons our
country didn’t go fascist (the lack of a strong Left,
the incompetence of O’Duffy and co, etc.)

There’s some odd comments about Spain:

The crucial part played by Spain in the War as declared and fought by Britain makes its characterisation as a war against Fascism ridiculous.. The main fascist country that ran its full course (i.e., that was not broken by external intervention) was Spain. Fascist order was imposed on a chaos within which Communism was seen to be developing, was preserved by force for about forty years, and was then modified into the representative system that we call Democracy.
.

http://current-magazines.atholbooks.org/readers/full_article.php?article_id=102&&title=The%20Right%20To%20Desert

Franco’s Spain was not a Fascist regime, but a
very nasty authoritarian one. Historians such as
Stanley Payne, Walter Laquer and Wayne H. Bowen
have denied Spain under was a Fascist State in
the same way as Italy under Mussolini and
Germany under Hitler. (Bowen makes the argument
Franco’s Spain was “semi-fascist).

Starkadder - February 3, 2012

Sorry, that should read “have denied Spain under Franco was a Fascist State”.

Garibaldy - February 3, 2012

The blurb for Paul Preston’s new book looks very interesting. And perhaps relevant to this discussion.

“The first, authoritative history of Spain’s darkest period. In a work of meticulous scholarship and research, Paul Preston, the world’s foremost historian of 20th-century Spain, charts how and why Franco and his supporters set out to eliminate all ‘those who do not think as we do’ – some 200,000 innocent men, women and children across Spain. The remains of General Franco lie in an immense mausoleum near Madrid, built with the blood and sweat of 20,000 slave labourers. His enemies, however, met less exalted fates. In addition to those killed on the battlefield, tens of thousands of Spaniards were officially executed between 1936 and 1945, and as many again became ‘non-persons’, their fates as obscure as the nation’s collective memory of this terrible period. As the country slowly reclaims its historical memory after a long period of wilful amnesia, for the first time a full picture can be given of the escalation and aftermath of the Spanish Holocaust in all its dimensions — ranging from systematic killings and judicial murders to the abuse of women and children, imprisonment, torture and the grisly fate of Spaniards in the hands of the Gestapo. The story of the victims of Franco’s reign of terror is framed by the activities of four key men whose dogma of eugenics, terrorisation, domination and mind control horrifyingly mirror the fascism of 1930s Italy and Germany. General Mola organised the military coup of 1936 and dictated its ferocity in the north of Spain; Quiepo de Llano, the deranged ‘radio general’, ran a virtually independent fiefdom in the south; Major Vallejo Najera was a military psychiatrist who provided ‘scientific’ justifications for the annihilation of thousands; and Captain Aguilera, the Nationalist press officer, blamed the war on do-gooders’ interference with the divine process of decimating the working classes. Reflecting more than a decade of research, and telling many stories of individuals from both sides, The Spanish Holocaust seeks to reflect the intense horrors visited upon Spain by the arrogance and brutality of the officers who rose up on 17 July 1936, provoking a civil war that was unnecessary and whose consequences still reverberate bitterly in Spain today”


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