Scotland and Northern Ireland and the future of the UK… July 17, 2012
Posted by WorldbyStorm in European Politics, Irish Politics, Northern Ireland.trackback
Here’s something that I suspect is only slowly beginning to register on the political horizon, the threat to the United Kingdom from the rise of the Scottish Nationalist Party. The SBP reports that ‘a leading Scottish Organgemen’, Ian Wilson speaking in Antrim at the 12 Orange parade noted that although:
“Nationalists in Scotland are making a lot of noise, but there is very little substance behind it. The Scots are not fools, no more than you are. Independence is a dangerous delusion, and we will not fall for it,” …
But…
[he] said that both Scotland’s first minister Alex Salmond and Sinn Féin’s Martin McGuinness wanted to see “the destruction and break-up of the United Kingdom”.
It’s not that the rupture would be abrupt. Current polling indicates that the popularity of Salmond and the SNP far outruns their central political project. Interesting that, and oddly not dissimilar to the position of Sinn Féin. But these are formations in the game for the long term. It’s not so much a rapid exit from the UK that is problematic from a unionist position, as the way in which simply by existing and putting forward an oppositional viewpoint, albeit in a fairly moderate tone, it provides a pole of attraction and simultaneously legitimises the very concept of something beyond the union.
That this can in its own way be fairly nebulous is neither here nor there. Suddenly what was unthinkable achieves the status of a political option, however far in the future it may be exercised (or not at all). And it’s not as if that’s all there is to it. Of course simply by achieving a measure of executive authority the SNP (and SF to a lesser extent?) are in a position to influence structurally the environment they find themselves in. This can be minimal or maximal, but that is the nature of participatory politics.
And that too has further ramifications, further legitimising their projects.
Again, none of this means that Scottish independence or Irish unity are inevitable endpoints. In fact it’s easy to propose a series of alternatives, from something close to the current status quo to varying levels of devolutionary autonomy in both instances (devo max being only the latest and seemingly achievable goal for the SNP). And simply because the direction appears to point towards eventual total breaks with the UK doesn’t mean that it has to be so. But Wilson isn’t far wrong.
As interesting are a number of other comments he makes.
Mr Wilson, a well-respected figure both inside and outside Orange politics, has recently been appointed head of an internal strategy group to co-ordinate the Orange Lodge of Scotland’s response to the independence referendum. Whether the order will play an overt role in Better Together, the official No campaign supported by the Scottish Labour Party, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, has yet to be agreed.
“The Lodge has to be careful not to queer the pitch. We do have our fans, but a lot of people don’t like us. We certainly don’t want to have a negative impact on the campaign,” Wilson told The Sunday Business Post in Edinburgh recently.
One would love to see something of that self-awareness on the part of the Orange Order in the North. But of course their respective societal weight is quite different. The article suggests that there are perhaps 50,000 members of Orange lodges in Scotland. And some might find this following heartening…
Contrasting the political situation in Scotland today with that ofIreland in 1912, Wilson warned Orangemen that there could be no question of resisting Scottish independence by force.
“Scotland in 2012 is very different from Ireland in 1912. There is no religious tension, no armed uprising, no open rebellion. It’s not a case of taking up arms to defend the union. It must be done by persuasion, by campaigning, and through the ballot box.”
Or perhaps not.
Just adding in a video from the ‘Better Together’ No Campaign mentioned above (IEL)
I read recently in an article in a Scottish paper that Scotland was also due to get Home Rule in 1914, but it was scuppered by WW1. When the war ended, appetite for Home Rule had faded.
I’ll have to see if I can find that article again.
While the devo-max proposal seems to be the one with the most support amongst the Scottish electorate (even from small “u” Unionist voters) it is by no means certain that it will be on the referendum card. Some in the SNP are urging a straight Yes/No vote and this has been echoed by most of the British Unionist (Nationalist) parties.
It may be that the SNP are flagging devo-max so heavily affected votes for their preferred option – independence.
I think the referendum/independence debate has the potential to get far nastier than most are willing to admit (though a handful of Scottish Nationalist writers are beginning to point out the potential fault lines).
In the recent elections in Scotland the Labour Party made a very public point of playing the Orange Card, particularly in Glasgow where they rolled back on several promises made in relation to contentious marches and local public regulations in order to hold onto Glasgow City Council in the face of an SNP challenge. The impression that the Orange Order won Glasgow for Labour, on the back of an anti-Catholic / anti-Irish whispers from many in the local party machine, is widespread in Scotland.
In recent weeks the Conservative Party has also reached out to the Orange Order, arguing that they are the natural political allies of any Unionist / Loyalist movement in Scotland.
Nor should we discount far greater interference from the British Unionist minority in the north-east of Ireland. Several Unionist politicians have floated the idea of a “partition” of Scotland over the last year, particularly the UUP’s John Taylor. They are urging that any Yes vote would exclude the Borders, and south-east and south-west Scotland, right up to Glasgow. This has been taken up in the House of Lords by a number of Tory grandees and in various right-wing think-tanks. From a British Nationalist point of view it makes sound strategic sense to cripple an independent Scotland from the get-go by dividing its industrial, revenue-raising heartland (just as with north-eastern Ireland in the revolutionary period), enhancing British territorial claims to the North Sea and Atlantic oil, gas and fishing reserves, and maintaining physical communication links with the last remnants of the British colony in Ireland.
Finally, Wilson’s claim that there is no religious tension in Scotland? Many of my Scottish friend would laugh at that. Take this example of a British Unionist paramilitary band, the Shankill Young Citizen Volunteers, stopping their parade to spend several minutes marching in circles outside a Roman Catholic church in Belfast carrying British flags and playing the “Famine Song”, an anti-Irish tune mocking the Great Famine of the 1840s. A song which came from Scottish Loyalists in Glasgow.
Though religion in Scotland is not historically bound up with “ethnicity” or “nationality” as it is here (at least into the 20th and 21st centuries) it does not mean that it is entirely absent. Orange Order members in Scotland are just as much opposed to Scottish Catholics as they are to Irish Catholics.
Sorry, meant to say that it may be that the SNP are flagging devo-max so heavily in the hope that the London authorities refuse it and they can sweep up disaffected votes for their preferred option – independence.
WordPress can play havoc with Comments sometimes!
It also puts the Orange Order as a purely British Empire thing. An independent Scotland could never be described as Catholic so the claim that they opposed Irish Independence on a fear of religious prosecution is obviously wrong. It means as well that they are a “religious” group interfering in what are secular matters.As far as I know other mainstream religious groups in Scotland have and should not have an official position on this.
Salmond appears to be making a lot of effort to create a Scottish identity which is non religious.Hopefully on similar grounds to Wolfe Tone substituting the common identity of Scot to religious and ethnic identities. Scottish Catholics were traditionally suspicious of nationalism seeing Labour as their defenders. There was the incident where only a Protestant School was asked to the opening of the Scottish Parliament.
Sad that the left in Scotland imploded for the second time.The left here should look and learn from Sillars SLP and Sheridans SSP.
I’m curious about this “incident where only a Protestant school was asked to the opening of the Scottish Parliament”, Jim. A quick google didn’t help me find out about it but Wikipedia, under the heading Education in Scotland, tells me that: “The majority of schools are non-denominational, but as a result of the Education Act 1918, separate denominational state schools were also established. The vast majority of denominational state schools are Roman Catholic but there are also three Scottish Episcopal schools and one Jewish school.” So am I wrong in thinking that your line should have read “only a non-denominational school was asked to the opening of the Scottish Parliament.”?
Joschka Fischer, former German Vice Chancellor was in Dublin a while back giving a lecture on the end of the euro. He was talking about Europe competing in the world and the ‘challenge from the east’ etc At one point he mentioned the break up of the UK and what that might mean for Ireland. And wouldn’t it be better for Ireland to be closer to Europe if the time comes
http://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/events/HG_european_project_end.php
Jim, you’re a catholic sectarian, just accept it – what protestant school opened the Scottish parliament – a Protestant private school? Because if you’re referring to a Scottish state school they are not Protestant – they have bollox all religion in them, compared to the Catholic schools which are stated funded but due to bigots, like yourself, still run by an organization which has a history of child abuse second to none – get a grip with your Scottish sectarianism, just because you can’t see beyond your own sick sect don’t impose it on others.
“Hopefully on similar grounds to Wolfe Tone substituting the common identity of Scot to religious and ethnic identities…” – shut up…you’re trying to wipe out the success of centuries of forging a identity beyond sectarian labels, which happened in Scotland because the main Christian sect was not obsessed with mind control and children like the Rome – as for that crap up the top about the Orange Order winning it for Labour in Glasgow – at least that poster is fairly open about his fascism, sorry ‘nationalism’
Does “More and more” refer to the level of abuse you like to throw at people who’s views don’t perfectly match your own? Or is it just those that you believe follow “the Church of Rome”?
Oh well, if one is a fascist for pointing out Labour’s recent dirty dealings with the Orange Order in Glasgow at least I’m in good company. Gerry Hassan and most of the writers on Bella Caledonia and Newsnet Scotland made similar points. Unless you believe this is all a vast right-wing fascist conspiracy?
I’d be very dubious about nationalism being equivalent of fascism more and more. And I don’t think it’s a fair characterisation of either Séamus or Jim’s contributions to this thread. I also think that telling others to ‘shut up’ is no way forward in a discussion if you want to be taken seriously.
centuries of forging a identity beyond sectarian labels,- and of course due to the victory of Socialists, not nationalists throwing out the odd ‘right on’ remark.
“Lord David Steel, the presiding officer of the Scottish parliament, acknowledged the “shortcomings” in the procession of dignitaries at the opening of the parliament last month.
School kids lined the Royal Mile in Edinburgh – there were children from 20 schools – yet not a single Catholic school was invited. ”
From http://republican-news.org/archive/1999/August26/26scot.html
My original source was elsewhere.
I am for a total elimination of all religions from schools.If I lived in Scotland I would oppose those bigots who oppose abortion such as the Catholic bishops.But i am also for the right of people to celebrate Sunday whatever way they want to similar to every other day of the week.
While not as bad as the 6 counties, Catholics in Scotland have been treated as an underclass.I am hopeful that where Labour failed to tackle this in the context of the Union that an independent Scotland will eliminate all forms of sectarianism and racism.This can only be done by admitting that it exists.
Oh The second to none, if only
http://www.scottishaffairs.org/backiss/pdfs/sa42/SA42_Kelly.pdf
An overview of the situation. Personally I would be for integrated education. I think a ghetto based education has problems in the long run.
If the Orange Order play any significant public role in trying to preserve the union in Scotland, a Yes vote is a done deal.
The vast majority of people here know what they are – religious bigots.
The very fact that both Labour and the Tories have been reaching out to the OO tells you everything you need to know about the depths to which these parties will sink.
Vote Yes.