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What you want to say… Open Thread, 25th July, 2012 July 25, 2012

Posted by WorldbyStorm in Uncategorized.
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As always, following on Dr. X’s suggestion, it’s all yours, “announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose”, feel free.

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1. Garibaldy - July 25, 2012

Following the recent discussion over the 12th of the persistence of sectarianism in north Belfast, this might be of interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18975049

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eamonncork - July 25, 2012

The story beneath is perhaps not without its partitionist and sectarian aspects either.

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eamonncork - July 25, 2012

The story beneath on the linked BBC site that is, not Ghandi’s beard.

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2. ghandi - July 25, 2012

Only a few days to go with the beard, donations can be made here

http://www.mycharity.ie/event/malachy_steensons_beard_shave

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3. Jim Monaghan - July 25, 2012

I am surprised at the lack of attention to this http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/21/offshore-wealth-global-economy-tax-havens
Our elite who run everything are servants of this denationalised class who hide their wealth. O’Reilly, O’Brien et al. It can only be tackled at EU level. Attention Nessa and the left EU MEPs.This with the Tobin tax would provide an real stimulus package. TGV everywhere so to speak.Metro in Dublin.

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Tomboktu - July 25, 2012

I’ve been reading the TJN report on the bus to and from work this week, and it doesn’t present the case all that well. On page 26 of a 36-page report they begin to explain how they did the calculations.

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4. Cathal Brennan - July 25, 2012

We’ve recently uploaded episode 8 of the History Show on Near FM, which is an interview with Pádraig Yeates about the 1913 Lockout and the plans for the centenary commemorations next year.
Previous episodes of the show are available here http://nearpodcast.org/pcast/?tag=the-history-show Thank you.

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5. Cathal Brennan - July 25, 2012

Forgot to put up the link for episode eight http://archive.org/details/TheHistoryShowEpisodeEightNearFm

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6. Jim Monaghan - July 25, 2012

Last night RTE TV50. An exercise on RTE navel gazing. A bit of the Sticky witchhunt atmosphere.I missed it but my better half tells me that Haughey and Burke easily out bullied the bullies. Tonight is on the border. Seems like Myers is a keynote person.

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7. Branno's ultra-left t-shirt - July 25, 2012

Your time-machine is not working Jim. That was on last night.

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Jim Monaghan - July 25, 2012

Yes. use the RTE player.If I could time travel, I would get various lottery numbers

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8. Mark P - July 25, 2012

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/voters-face-sixth-referendum-on-abortion-201749.html

It seems that the government may not be as absolutely, definitely, completely committed to legislating for X as Labour’s useless, spineless, liberals assured us when they were voting against legislating for X. Colour me shocked.

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RosencrantzisDead - July 25, 2012

What a joke. Would like to know how much they are paying this commission.

Remember, according to Labour, Clare Daly’s bill ‘did not go far enough’. I wonder how far Labour will go…

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eamonncork - July 25, 2012

They’ll go as far as saying that in these recessionary times one has to think about the expense involved in holding a referendum and hope to put in on the long finger until the next election when they will salve their conscience by saying that they really did mean to get around to it but were stymied by elements in Fine Gael.

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RosencrantzisDead - July 25, 2012

The last report into this issue leaned against a referendum, citing previous experience.

A repeat of 2002 would be much worse than doing nothing. Doing nothing at least retains the scant reproductive rights women have in this country.

Who is taking bets that Labour agree to a referendum?

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Tomboktu - July 25, 2012

Has the Supreme Court not said that legislation is needed? I would expect that that fact might weigh more heavily if it were used by campaigners — the likes of Youth Defence, David Quinn, Diarmuid Martin or Alive! can’t use the “foreign court” card against a Supreme Court judgment

RosencrantzisDead - July 26, 2012

That seems to be why there is a renewed push to amend the constitution: to avoid carrying out the directions of the various courts.

9. Mark P - July 25, 2012

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18986249

I’m sure everyone here will be united in offering the third Emperor of the Kim dynasty our congratulations, and our hopes that his new wife will soon produce an heir to the worker’s throne.

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yourcousin - July 26, 2012

+1

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Michael Carley - July 26, 2012

Even now, the workers, peasants and soldiers of the DPRK are preparing their militant and steel-like response to the insult offered to the juchae spirit of the women’s football team by the Glaswegian running dogs of the Olympic Committee.

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10. Mark P - July 25, 2012

The Socialist Party had a public meeting in Wynne’s Hotel last night, about recent attacks in the newspapers (particularly those owned by Independent News and Media) on the Socialist Party and the wider left. There was a very good turn out, with about 180 people in the room at its fullest point.

Speakers included Joe Higgins and Laura Fitzgerald (Socialist Party), Jimmy Kelly (Unite), Harry Brown (journalist), Eileen Gabbett (household tax campaigner) and Tony Mulhearn (one of the Liverpool 47 councillors). As you can probably guess from the number of speakers, the meeting was a bit too long.

The speeches ranged from a detailed account of how INM’s newspapers invented a “controversy” about politicians using travel expenses to cover traveling to political meetings (as an aside, I hadn’t realised that the “controversial” sums were so low: 900 euro in Joe’s case), to a history and analysis of the Irish Independent and Independent Newspapers, to wider discussions of the Household Tax campaign, the unions and austerity.

I saw a couple of commenters here at it too.

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LeftAtTheCross - July 25, 2012

I had a scan of the article on the SP in Saturday’s Indo. It would hardly qualify as an “attack” in fairness.

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Mark P - July 25, 2012

Which one? There were two.

Over the last month, Independent newspapers have published multiple front page articles across different newspapers attacking the Socialist Party, and a very large number of other articles, including one which spread over five pages of the Irish Independent’s tabloid edition. The tone of many of these articles – excerpts were read out at the meeting – was absolutely vicious.

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LeftAtTheCross - July 25, 2012
ivorthorne - July 25, 2012

Is there any video online? I’d have loved to have gone.

Mark P - July 26, 2012

Those two articles turned out to be quite restrained by comparison with quite a number of those they’ve produced recently. They are a bit nasty and intrusive, but they didn’t actually go for the full on “profile” they were trailing. Some of the stuff they’ve published over the last few weeks has been astonishing though. It’s a bit odd to be given the full Workers Party in the 80s treatment at this point, given the relatively modest social weight of the SP at the moment though.

It’s almost flattering to the collective ego.

11. crocodile - July 25, 2012

A quote from Paul Krugman in the latest LRB: “There’s a trap I’ve seen people fall into: you let your vision of what should be get completely taken over by what appears possible right now”.
Brendan Howlin or Ruairi Quinn might pin that up over their desks.

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eamonncork - July 25, 2012

They might, if they actually had a vision of what should be. If Quinn has one, I suspect it’s not far from the one shared by his Fine Gael colleagues in the current government. Actually you can probably include Howlin in that as well.

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12. fergal - July 26, 2012

Anybody fed up already with the big business,big drugs,big media juggernaut that is the so-called Olympics.It hasn’t even begun and it seems to be everywhere.What in the name of M*********’s or V**** has this got to do with sport?The amount of time spent on sport in this country is just mind boggling,if only half the amount of time was spent discussing what kind of society we’d like to live in I’m sure we’d be in a better place.
How’s this for the Olympic spirit Mittal from India the steel billionaire and Tony Blair’s mate is carrying the Olympic flame today.His firms have left go tens of thousands of workers,dozens of miners have died in his ore mines in Kazakstan,and he is not known for his environmental or safety record.The old steel plant in Cork was “owned” by this guy,I think he bought it for £1.Anyway,400 workers were thrown onto the scrapheap,quite literally,by Mittal.What about the cleanup operation there?Anything between 30 and 70 million to be paid by…………the taxpayer!
Does anybody not believe that most of the participants are on drugs of some sort?This is never really dealt with in the mainstream media.Some fellow form Mullingar was on the Marian”400 grand a year Finuncane ” who took EPO,he was a jouneyman runner who felt he needed to dope, what about those in the middle and those on the top,they don’t dope?Everybody knows that the cyclists dope and it’s accepted.But you get the feeling that this is cultural,that cycling traditionally is not a big sport in the English speaking world,so it’s alright to do it down.Professional rugby??Ever heard of people been done for doping?If the proper tests aren’t done then everybody is clean.There are fellows playing rugby who are built like tanks(good gym work of course)and can run as fast as a train,all naturally of course.Phil Bennett and JPR Williams at least looked human!But they were amateurs of course.
I exclude amateur sports form the above criticisms!

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13. Garibaldy - July 26, 2012

I’m not expecting this new form of social media to catch on the north

http://www.tout.com/

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14. Mark P - July 26, 2012

The SWP have an obituary on their website for Willie Phelan, who was a long time member of theirs. I never met the man, but he certainly sounded like an interesting character. The anecdote about him and the other SWP member in his town going around in the middle of the night, during the moving statues mania, hanging “out of order” signs on all of the local religious statues is brilliant.

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Mark P - July 26, 2012
Branno's ultra-left t-shirt - July 26, 2012

No offence to the late Mr. Phelan but Kieran Allen can’t resist a good cliche. ‘Rural Ireland’ was mobilised overwhelmingly to vote against divorce- one of the highest votes against divorce was Dublin Central.

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15. ejh - July 26, 2012

Latest squib on Spain

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16. yourcousin - July 27, 2012

Because I hate facebook and because even at 30 with a wife, a kid and mortgage my mother would kill me if she knew that I’m getting not one, but two German short haired pointers today. Taking off work at noon to go pick ‘em up.

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yourcousin - July 28, 2012

for the record, my dogs are spectacular

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WorldbyStorm - July 28, 2012

I googled their type. Spectacular and cool YC. I bet they’re fun to be around. Just spent a week with two miniature schnauzers and they’re great craic too.

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ejh - July 28, 2012

Dogs are fun. But cats are gods.

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Garibaldy - July 28, 2012

I’d say you’ll have your work cut out with two of those YC, but in my limited experience they’re a nice breed.

yourcousin - July 29, 2012

I wanted a wirehaired viszla but another foreman for the electricians happened to be breeding his sire with another dog from a great kennel and since it was a first line breeding they were cheap (respectively). Obviously I was only going to get one but then the owner that was going to buy the other pup (there were only two pups in the litter) backed out last week. So I took both pups. Due to having my boy I was going to take the female due to the fact that they’re usually easier to train, but in this case the female is the trouble maker and the male is mellow to a tee. The wife and I (emphasis on”I”) have our work cut out for us, but the fact that my mother thought I was crazy to get one (we haven’t told her about the second) and my mother in law held off getting a second dog because she is convinced that we will end up pawning off the pup on her when it stops being cute (ditto for telling her about the 2nd pup). So yeah, expect more updates including pics of first hunt.

ejh,
Don’t know about gods but our home includes felines as well

WorldbyStorm - July 29, 2012

Yeah. There’s one cat in our house. Grumpy creature. Kind of working towards getting a dog so any updates would be very interesting.

yourcousin - July 29, 2012

Sorry thought I had finished the paragraph when in fact I hadn’t. The fact that both my mother and mother in law expect us to fail, is a strong motivating factor to succeed.

My family has a long history with bird dogs including, French Brittney, English Springer Spaniel, Labrador Retrievers, GSP mixes and even a Standard Poodle mix (my dad swears it was his best retriever) I like them all though these are my first puppies that I was primarily responsible for. So I’m nervous about making sure they’re well balanced with the family and others while becoming a good set of hunting dogs (which is why they exist).

17. Michael Carley - July 28, 2012
ejh - July 30, 2012

A bit by-numbers, I thought.

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18. doctorfive - July 28, 2012

Don’t remember this being flagged already but there is a very interesting interview with Nora Connolly O’Brien from 1965 on the RTE player. Runs from life in the Connolly household to the visits leading up to the execution.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1149726

RTE have dug up some great bits lately in fairness. I have nightmares about Montrose going up in a blaze or some disaster and taking all that history with it. Among the committee meetings and months of bashing in the papers it’s a shame no one took the time to ask about digitising and backing up the archives.

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WorldbyStorm - July 29, 2012

Interesting point. There’s a catastrophe plan for national institutions but I wonder if RTÉ falls under that? I remember in the early 2000s going to eircom’s archive to do some research on the 1930s and so on. It was clear that despite the enthusiasm and activity of the archivist that the changing nature of eircom placed significant pressures on the archive and I’ve wondered if it’s still extant.

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19. Gearóid - July 29, 2012

Mickey Harte, Sean Boylan and Colm O’Rourke speaking at a Sean Quinn rally tonight in Ballyconell, Co. Cavan. I know I was one of those defending the GAA on here a while back, but the love has faded a tad.

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Gearóid - July 29, 2012

Or maybe it’s mostly just a Meath thing. :P

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Mark P - July 29, 2012

5,000 at it according to some reports, and the photos make that look believable. The people of Cavan doing their bit to justify metropolitan sneering at culchies.

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CMK - July 29, 2012

How genuine is participation in this protest? Many there were undoubtedly Quinn employee’s. Equally many line managers in Quinn businesses would probably be keeping an eye out to ensure ‘their’ workers were there. I’d say a Quinn employee in the general area who wasn’t there tonight will have a few awkward moments tomorrow morning. The ‘benevolent billionaire’ myth surrounding Quinn will probably tighten its grip in the Cavan/Fermanagh area as his empire collapses and with it the livelihoods of hundreds if not thousands of ordinary workers who know that in those areas after a Quinn collapse there will be nothing.

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EamonnCork - July 30, 2012

It’s a pretty ignoble cause, isn’t it? ‘For God’s sake help Sean Quinn hold on to his property in the Ukraine.’

Joe - July 30, 2012

But Quinn doesn’t have any employees there any more. All the companies have been taken over or sold off as far as I know.

EamonnCork - July 30, 2012

Fair point by Joe. I think the turnout probably has more to do with slavishness towards the wealth of a local big man. Twenty years ago they’d have been turning out for a pro-life rally on the say so of the local bishop.

CMK - July 30, 2012

No, it’s true that he doesn’t own them or control them, but it’s equally true that from reading his comments in the media that he regards all of these companies as still ‘his’. The various administrators are merely minding them until Quinn gets back on his feet. And his management layers probably hold the same view that the ‘Big Man’ will be back soon enough and the workforce need to be kept in line until he returns. I’d say yesterday’s spectacle will probably push a few waverers to emigrate. Certainly it gives me pause to think that thousands are prepared to demonstrate in support of a billionaire who was intimately linked to a bank that has skinned this society for close to 30 billion. A fifth of that amount spent on public works in the border counties would probably create more jobs than Quinn ever did.

Roasted Snow - July 31, 2012

Coming from this area, that’s a spot on take CMK. Also the reason why SF will stay quiet and indeed why Fracking is seen by many as a good thing, jobs etc. Love to see Enniskillen SP publish something locally on this and give a class analysis. I would also say that those who turned out did so voluntarily regardless of line mangers being present. ‘Sure isn’t it poor aul Seán the man who started out with one green lorry and a quarry! If it wasn’t for Seán sure there’d be nothing at all!’ I’m sure in the not so distant past 1992 or around then the bould Peter Quinn was pushed as a Nationalist Unity candidate for Fermanagh ST. This family have deep roots in this community and are respected highly. But the lesson for the left here is how to break the consciousness of a layer of rural workers from hero worshipping the boyos made good who afterall are the rural alternatives to the Haugheys. ‘And sure why not says you. If them boys in Dublin can do it what’s the harm in Seán’?

que - July 30, 2012

@MarkP,
The wisdom of the metropolis has failed us often – Charlie Haughey, Bertie Aherne, Brian Lenihan. Is it a case that the culchies are only following a political crassness long since adopted by the metrolpolitan sophisticates.
The metropolis rarely examines its own issues before sneering. Part of the problem no?

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Mark P - July 30, 2012

You seem to be under the impression that I think that “metropolitan sneering at culchies” is a good thing, Que. It’s worth pointing out that to the same South Dublin liberals who fill RTE’s schedules, the examples you mention merely serve as proof of the moral degeneracy of Northside and West Dublin gurriers, who can hardly be expected to be any better than the yokels.

That said, we are unlikely to see anything quite as unedifying as the Ballyconnell march on the streets of Dublin any time soon. And the reasons why see it in Cavan are worth exploring.

que - July 30, 2012

fair points mark

Joe - July 31, 2012

“That said, we are unlikely to see anything quite as unedifying as the Ballyconnell march on the streets of Dublin any time soon.”

I’d just like to post in defence, sort of, of the Ballyconnell marchers. Here’s my point (and maybe to some extent, theirs): Over the last 5 years we’ve seen the collapse of the Irish economy. The country went bust, the banks went bust, the developers went bust. Who was responsible? Who are all the people who ran the economy at that time and what happened to them?
Answer: They were the golden circle of bankers and capitalists who ran the country at the time and still run it. So none of them are in jail, very few of them have even been hauled over the coals in any way. Why? Because they all went to school together – y’know, to Clongowes and Belvedere and UCD etc. They look after their own.
But Quinn jnr is in jail. Quinn snr may be soon. Why him and not the rest of them? Answer: Cos he’s not one of the golden circle. He’s an oul culchie who left school without a qualification. So they can throw him in jail for having the nerve to try to be like them.
So there you are: The Ballyconnell marchers are just one leap of consciousness away from saying: Throw the rest of them in jail along with Seanie.

EamonnCork - July 31, 2012

@Joe, I often agree with you and I know you’re arguing in good faith but that’s a bit reminiscent of the old argument which was used to defend Haughey. It posits the notion that an immensely rich man with connections all over the shop is some kind of an outsider victimised by some nebulous establishment. In reality Sean Quinn and the likes of Sean Quinn are the establishment in this country. There is no ‘they’ victimising him. He is one of ‘they.’ The government set up the bank guarantee and NAMA to protect the interests of Quinn and he had the ear of senior politicians. If there is a golden circle he was in it. And so were the likes of Johnny Ronan and Sean Dunne who would no doubt also love the idea that they’re being picked on because they’re not posh boys who went to boarding school.
There’s as much truth in the idea that Quinn is some kind of naive hillbilly being picked on by ‘that crowd’ in their ivory towers as there was in the old cliche about him, that he had no interest in money at all and was never happier than when playing cards for matchsticks.

ejh - July 31, 2012

Note that the Gildernew Tweet responds approvingly to the idea that it’s because he’s not from the D4 crowd. Apparently the major problem was the gentleman’s “audacity”.

Joe - July 31, 2012

Thanks Eamonn. I think you probably have it right there. My “defence” of the Ballyconnell people was half-hearted – a sort of attempt to make sense of their position.
WBS, I think we may need a separate Quinn thread if this all keeps up.

XtraXtra - July 30, 2012

@EamonnCork +1.
Yes. That ‘slavishness’ is kind of apt.
There is some kind of complex about the old pre-Norman Irish, that we have to manifest as ‘heartless’ and to be perceived as, at laaasstt, as …… oppressors.
J.M.Synge got us right, in the Playboy of the Western World, when the poor just were so very much in awe (and admiration?) of the bloke who, ‘murdered’,his father.

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que - July 30, 2012

I think its less to do with deference to the rich and more about replacing fealty to a state (which never delivers) with fealty to a man who at least located a lot of jobs in the area. Neither the state nor Quinn deserve much respect but I see this in terms of a patron-client relationship arising from a state which fails to offer an alternative i.e a replication of parish pump where the states failure to deliver is exploited by a grafter. Framing this in the context of deference to the rich is very appealing when trying to paint this in a class context but i think that misses some of the angles

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Branno's ultra-left t-shirt - July 30, 2012

Did Quinn build his empire without a penny of state aid, IDA grants, start up funding etc? Just asking, because a huge number of ‘self-made’ men have a bit if a head start. Also note the letter of support from Michael O’Leary. Never really liked Jarlath Burns either, any of the SF commentators able to give us the party line on all this?

Mark P - July 30, 2012

I would be shocked if the SF line is anything other than “whatever you say, say nothing”.

Garibaldy - July 30, 2012

That line might depend on which side of the border you’re on.

I think your partitionist mentality is showing here Mark in your failure to mention the good people of Fermanagh (and Tyrone and Armagh judging from the GAA presence) who crossed the border to attend the march.

Roasted Snow - July 31, 2012

Mark P you’re probably right but I have no doubt Gildernew will be under pressure to back the Quinn campaign. Interesting how SF deal with this one. Saying nothing might not be an option, Gildernew won with only 4 votes to spare, and the Quinns are influential in the area, big GAA links too, SF will have to respond I think. But how? Also this is an issue which straddles both sides of the border and will bring into some sort of conflict SFs Northern Neo Lib and Southern Social Democratic positions. Maybe Fianna Fáil could step in tothe breach.

Roasted Snow - July 31, 2012

I stand corrected, this from Slugger, Michelle has spoken;

“Nevermind, Sean. The MP for Fermanagh and South Tyrone, Sinn Féin’s Michelle Gildernew, is still honking on your behalf.

Even Sinn Fein MP Michelle Gildernew has come out to defend the family, telling this newspaper that what has happened to Mr. Quinn was “wrong”.

“He has been treated disgracefully by the Irish Government. Had they not tried to strip him off all his assets, including his home, deny him the ability to function in business, and routinely try to humiliate him I believe he would have paid back every penny he owed to the Irish taxpayer.

“He accepted he had done wrong, but all our attempts to make the government show some comment sense were ignored. He is being punished for having the audacity to ‘buy the bank; and for being an ordinary man from Fermanagh who is hugely respected by his community,” she said.”

There you have it now! Poor oul Seán

Mark P - July 31, 2012

Bloody hell. I wasn’t expecting that.

eamonncork - July 31, 2012

Gildernew’s statement means that the next SF statement excoriating the developers should be taken with a pinch of salt. In fact, if no-one in the party disowns the statement it’s hard to see any of their pronouncements in this area as anything other than self serving and opportunist. After all it’s easy enough to denounce the ‘developers and bankers who ruined the economy’ in the abstract. What’s not so easy, as parties have found in the past on various issues, is criticising the concrete depredations of someone you view as one of your own.
In other words it appears that Mark P’s characterisation of SF as New FF may be right and the likes of myself who have argued the opposite are wrong. After all if he had suggested last week that SF would come out and back Quinn to the hilt he’d probably have been pulled across the goals.
With respect to Que’s point, I think we’re largely talking about the same thing. A client-patron relationship and deference to the wealth of a local big man are not that different. There’s still a class basis to it even if it’s not the wealth per se which people are kow towing to but his status as employer. In fact they’re intertwined.
In fairness to most of Quinn’s high profile supporters they’re not doing anything which fundamentally contradicts their stated political positions. SF are and that makes nonsense of all their populist bullshit about the economy. Next thing they’ll be telling us the ‘revisionists’ and ‘securocrats’ are behind Quinn’s downfall.

Garibaldy - July 31, 2012

It’s not like this is the first time that the provos have come out in favour of the Quinns; they were at the previous protests when the companies were seized. I appreciate that the fact that one of them is now in contempt of court might make the situation different, but I am totally unsurprised by this.

One thing the provos in the north excel at is having their finger on the pulse of popular opinion in their local areas. There was never any chance of them coming out against the Quinns, nor of keeping silent. All politics is local is a maxim they have totally taken to heart.

eamonncork - July 31, 2012

It was a maxim FF hewed to as well. But it makes nonsense of SF’s claim to be something different in politics, something which is at the core of their appeal on this side of the border.

Garibaldy - July 31, 2012

I guess being from the north, as well as the WP, I’ve never viewed that claim with anything but the utmost scepticism. I do think there are people in them with good politics who genuinely believe that it is what it says, but the leadership is utterly unideological. So too, when it comes down to it, is the majority of the membership. I’ve long been saying that you need only look at where the breakthroughs were coming for them, it was based on FF-type support and politics. That changed a good deal at the last election, but the core is what it is.

Plus, being from the WP, I might be more inclined to say they’re reflective of their origins rather than the new FF :p

Mark P - July 31, 2012

To be honest, Eamonn, it wouldn’t have occurred to me to suggest in advance that SF would take this line. It does, of course, fit with their populist politics, but I really thought that they’d be a bit shrewder in balancing their local interests with their national interests.

It’s really a remarkably tone deaf stance to take in the circumstances. No matter how strongly local opinion is behind Sean Quinn, weighing in behind him is toxic everywhere else. And Gildernew isn’t even mumbling some sort of vague on the one hand, on the other, equivocal support. It’s full on this poor man has been wronged stuff.

I wonder to what degree this is a case of their interests in the North, where they are an openly neo-liberal communalist party and Quinn is probably only a political issue in areas where he’s popular, taking precedence over their leftish populism in the South? I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see some squabbling break out about this.

I see that Fintan O’Toole put the boot into them over this too, although he descends into sub-John Waters waffle about the national psyche later on. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0731/1224321157051.html

Mark P - July 31, 2012

And sure enough, now Sinn Fein are trying to have it both ways, with Mary Lou McDonald telling the national media that while she understands the “strong emotions” in support of Quinn, justice must be done, while Gildernew tells the local press about how wronged Quinn is.

Shameless stuff really.

WorldbyStorm - July 31, 2012

Very bad for SF and I’d agree entirely with Eamonn too. This is not, I think, going to play well outside of a very localised area. Gildernew’s position makes zero political sense in the context of the broader island and she’s leaving an huge hostage to fortune for SF from here on out.

Just to add on foot of your last point Mark P, there does need to be some sort of pushback publicly against the Gildernew line from MLM etc for there to be any credibility on the issue.

Garibaldy - July 31, 2012

Sean Quinn won’t be a major electoral issue in Dublin by the time the next election comes round. He will be in Fermanagh and the like.

Roasted Snow - July 31, 2012

@Mark P. I thought that was pretty good summation from O’Toole in the IT. SF really need to make it clear which side they are on. But as I said Michelle G needs all the votes she can get. It was so close in 2010.

Mark P - July 31, 2012

The O’Toole article was fine in some ways and it usefully addressed various pro-Quinn arguments. But as it went on, and as he got the opportunity to line up almost the whole range of South Dublin liberal bugbears, the GAA, nationalism, Sinn Fein, Catholicism, I thought he lost the run of himself. It’s almost as if he couldn’t believe his luck, and couldn’t miss the opportunity to engage in some ponderings about our collective masochistic peasant psyche.

Then again, as has come up on this site before, I am considerably less charitably disposed towards Fintan O’Toole than many here.

WorldbyStorm - July 31, 2012

Well I’d be pretty much like yourself Mark P in that regard. He has his moments, but fewer and further between than some seem to think. And that ridiculous supposed non party politics stuff at the last election was the last straw.

Mark P - July 31, 2012

That and the suggestion of a dictatorship of Mary Robinson and a few other right thinking sorts. O’Toole is sporadically, if inconsistently, good at analysing some things about Irish society, but his political prescriptions are reliably foolish.

WorldbyStorm - July 31, 2012

+1

tomasoflatharta - July 31, 2012

Have They Gone A Bit Mad in Cavan and Fermanagh, Ted? – Michelle Gildernew MP (SF) says Seán Quinn “is being punished for having the audacity to ‘buy the bank; and for being an ordinary man from Fermanagh”

Have They Gone A Bit Mad in Cavan and Fermanagh, Ted?

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g bear - August 1, 2012

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/23897

Far more balanced statement from Mary Lou:

Sinn Féin deputy leader, Mary Lou McDonald has said that justice must be done before the courts in the Quinn case.

Deputy McDonald said the Quinns clearly brought employment and prosperity to parts of the country, but that there was no disputing the fact that in recent years the Quinns have engaged in questionable business practice which is being examined in detail by the courts.

“There are strong emotions in support of the Quinns. This is understandable, however, neither loyalty nor emotion can be allowed to get in the way of justice being done in the Quinn case or, indeed, any other that may arise.

“The matter is before the courts and that is where the final judgement will be made. The Quinns chose to put a lot into the public domain concerning their case, including the fact that company law was breached and that they have moved assets beyond the reach of IBRC.

As the IBRC is now fully state-owned, money owed to it by the Quinns is money owed the state. The Quinns have an obligation to abide by the law the same as any other citizen. They also have an obligation to work with IBRC to repay what they owe.

D_D - August 1, 2012

The following piece, as hard-hitting and, strangely, including a trade unionist point of view ,was snuck into the Cantillon column in the Business section of yesterday’s ‘Irish Times’ (31st July 2012):

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0731/1224321154600.html

“Quinn supporters should recall 2005 employment duties failure

The thousands of local supporters and former Quinn Group employees who gathered to rally around Seán Quinn in Ballyconnell on Sunday would do well to remember an incident from 2005.

That year, Fermanagh-based Quinn Cement was censured by the Labour Court, which found that the company had failed to honour employment commitments made earlier that year relating to sick pay, disciplinary procedures and the length of the working week.

Siptu had taken the case on behalf of its members at Quinn Cement – most of whom were “confidential” union members.

The court compelled Quinn Cement to implement a 39-hour week and to introduce a sick-pay scheme – hardly a radical request at a time when the group, and the country generally, was on the ascent.

Seán Quinn is not what you’d call union-friendly.

While some businesses within his colossal empire did recognise and engage with unions, such as his hotel businesses and some international divisions, on the whole the Quinn Group refused to recognise trade unions.

Despite his reincarnation as some kind of Santa Claus figure by his supporters in recent months, it is worth asking how much of his enormous fortune Quinn actually shared with his employees.

Of course, many would argue that this is not the job of a (once) successful businessman – rather it is to build businesses and look after the bottom line.

Perhaps this may explain the somewhat curious cry of solidarity from comrade Michael O’Leary, who sent a letter of support to the Quinn rally on Sunday. As another executive who has become virtually indistinguishable with the business he leads, the Ryanair chief executive is notoriously anti-union. Indeed Ryanair’s landmark case against Impact – which had huge implications for how companies that do not recognise trade unions handle industrial disputes – dates from around the time of the Quinn Cement Labour Court case. O’Leary, like the Seán Quinn of yore, is an extremely successful – and rich – businessman. That’s where the similarities end. While Michael O’Leary continues to lead an extremely successful company, Seán Quinn presided over one of the biggest corporate fiasco’s in Irish history.

Unfortunately that fiasco will be one for which the Irish State will be picking up the tab for many years to come.”

In his column last week Fintan also explored another absurdity of the Quinn chapter, and expressly from a class point of view:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0724/1224320710402.html

EamonnCork - August 1, 2012

Great post dd. It underlines how deeply rooted the ‘He done a lot for people up here,’ argument is in a paternalism which regards jobs as being a charitable gift bestowed by an employer.

eamonncork - August 1, 2012

Good to see that statement from McDonald even if it does seem, with its talk of ‘employment and prosperity’ and ‘strong emotions’ to be displaying a level of understanding which might not be extended towards another criminally inclined plutocrat.
You’re still left with the fact of SF representatives taking completely different lines depending on what side of the border they’re on which frankly looks more than a bit cynical.

D_D - August 1, 2012

I must protest at the begrudgery towards Fintan O’Toole. He has articulated, complete with damning data, a left response to the Quinn devlopment. Very much needed.

His better columns since the crisis broke – and more so Gene Kerrigan’s – should be collected and published in book form as the best posssible propaganda counter offensives to the Academy of Austerity, the Marion Finucine Panelists and the Highpaid Headfixers.

The left, not always so articulate, or well placed, in its response, might now do what so obviously needs to be done: organise a big public meeting on Quinn in Dublin.

And I’m not talking about an SWP meeting in Cassidys or a Socialist Party meeting in Wynns, but a ULA meeting or broader, with FO’T, Vincent Browne or Gene Kerrigan, better GAA people, better Sinn Féin people, non-Dublin Independent TDs, the ‘Anglo:Not our Debt’ campaign and even SIPTU and any willing progressive priests, speaking. Our Quinn coaltion against this hint of a new right.

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20. Branno's ultra-left t-shirt - July 29, 2012

The brother, Peter Quinn, is a nasty piece of work. An idealogical right-winger who sneers at the public service. Nice to see Fr. Brian Darcy there as well- we know where he stands now. The arrogance of some of Quinn’s supporters on Vincent Browne last week was a sight to behold, as is the contempt Peter Quinn’s son is holding the law in. There are of course people in Cavan who despise Quinn but they have to keep their heads down. Interesting to see Sinn Fein’s views on this.

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21. irishelectionliterature - July 29, 2012

Great article over on Come Here to Me
Una Bean Mhic Mhathuna; Over 40 years of reactionary politics
http://comeheretome.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/una-bean-mhic-mhathuna-40-years-of-reactionary-politics/

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RosencrantzisDead - July 29, 2012

Current Phoenix also has a spread on her daughters. The magazine also discusses the rather interesting situation of how the organisation is funded: they have received interest free loans, totalling approx. €340,000, from undisclosed individuals and groups.

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Clive Sullish - July 30, 2012

In mitigation, the Mac Mathunas are wonderful traditional singers. I saw them a few times at An Goilin, the singers’ club

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Joe - July 30, 2012

Didn’t know that Clive. It’s a while since I’ve been to An Góilín but I’ll keep an ear out the next time I’m there.

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Branno's ultra-left t-shirt - July 30, 2012

Just for a second I read that as ‘swingers’ club’…

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22. Jim Monaghan - July 30, 2012

One has to ask why not the father as well as the son.He obviously has no intention of cooperating.

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23. irishelectionliterature - July 31, 2012

Fintan O’Toole has a decent piece on the Quinns
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0731/1224321157051.html

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24. Garibaldy - July 31, 2012
25. Branno's ultra-left t-shirt - July 31, 2012

Jarlath Burns was on Matt Cooper debating Quinn with O’Toole. Burns is a clever fella, but he played up this idea of him just being a simple Armagh lad who didn’t want to get into all this economic stuff. It was actually a classic performance, and the whole Quinn PR operation is very similar to the way the right in Britain and the US play the victim against a supposed ‘liberal’ or ‘metropolitian’ oppressor. The Quinns are far from stupid, they know what they are doing, but the ‘us poor country folk’ versus them bastards in Dublin, in the absence of any coherent alternative, in places like Cavan plays well. And is dangerous because it can emerge as right-wing populism on other issues. Peter Quinn, certainly, is right-wing and anti-public service on principle. He had a completely uncalled for and dirty cut at Liam Mulvihill (former GAA supremo) on a programme about the GAA a few years ago- he described Mulvihill as having a ‘public service’ mentality.
Matt Cooper has been fairly outspoken on Quinn, but is clearly uncomfortable with the fact that Michael O’Leary sent a message of support to the rally. O’Leary is one of Cooper’s idols.
An interesting affair all in all….

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26. WorldbyStorm - July 31, 2012

Great analysis Branno. Particularly re O’Leary. Must be generating no end of cognitive dissonance in some quarters… :)

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27. EamonnCork - August 1, 2012

Extracts from the speeches by O’Rourke, Boylan and Darcy at the Ballyconnell rally.

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