An Irish (Third Level) Education… August 22, 2012
Posted by WorldbyStorm in Culture, Economy, European Politics, Irish Politics.trackback
Here’s a post written a short while back, coincidentally this appeared yesterday morning in the Irish Times.
Here’s something I hadn’t known. The issue of how our educational institutions engage with the increasing costs of education in other EU countries, and in particular the UK has been mentioned here before. And it seems that there has been an increase in applications and admissions. In this piece in the Guardian it’s interesting to see how complimentary the description of our education system. A narrative somewhat at odds with the harum scarum line we are often offered by the Irish Times and Independent.
So one will read that:
Irish institutions such as Trinity and UCD, ranked among the top universities in Europe, charge just €2,250 a year (£1,760) to EU citizens.
[And] it is the Republic of Ireland which is seeing the biggest surge in British students beating the tuition fee hikes. For many 18-year-olds it is far less daunting than going to a non-English speaking country and many arrive with family connections in the country.
But what of admissions. Well. As noted above, there’s definitely been an increase. The piece notes:
The number of British students applying to Dublin’s Trinity College has jumped by 20% to nearly 2,000 this year. At University College Dublin (UCD), applications from students with British A-levels have surged 37% from 800 to around 1,100.
But what’s telling is that there may be a self-limiting aspect to this. Again, away from the rather dire prognostications of the IT and II education pages it seems that access to third level in this state is far from as easy as is made out. Consider the following:
The major barrier [to Irish universities] is academic entry requirements. “The grade requirements can be almost ridiculously high,” warns Huntington. The Irish equivalent of A-levels is the Leaving Cert, which covers six subjects. Unless a British student has studied four A-levels and gained good grades, they may find it difficult to obtain enough points to qualify for an Irish university.
Huh? Ridiculously high? That’s something I haven’t heard before.
It also notes:
Entry requirements Tough. Based on points score in the Irish Leaving Certificate (six subjects, maximum 600 points for six As). A British A grade is worth 135 points, so students will need four good A-levels to obtain a place a leading university. Irish universities do not make conditional offers. No one receives an offer from an Irish university until they have received their grades.
And there are other self-limiting aspects too. Not least…
Prices in Dublin, once one of Europe’s most expensive cities, is another issue, though the cost of living has fallen in recent years. UCD says rent for on-campus rooms are €486 a month (£380), while living off campus nearby in Rathmines would be about €450 (£352). The universities of Cork, Limerick and Galway all charge similar tuition fees but with lower living costs.
Moreover there are other states in the EU where it’s materially easier to enter third level as a UK student with lower requirements and costs. The Netherlands is one such and the language isn’t an issue because courses are taught through English.
All in all then the notion that we’re about to see our universities and colleges over run or see an unreasonable drain on our resources in this area is probably unlikely.
[...] “… Here’s something I hadn’t known. The issue of how our educational institutions engage with the increasing costs of education in other EU countries, and in particular the UK has been mentioned here before …” (more) [...]
WBS – if you consider applications for medicine course in the UK, pretty much all ask for AAA grades at A level. From what you write it looks like UCD, TCD would ask for AAAA. Quite a few medical applicants will get 4 A levels at grade A, but most will have AAA, so yes the Irish universities are excluding many high achieving UK students with those requirements. Of course, in the UK a great many of those AAA applicants for medical courses won’t be offered a place as these courses in the UK are greatly over subscribed, but as yet UK universities aren’t asking for AAAA. They use interviews, evidence of commitment/work experience/empathy and the UKCAT etc to help select.
As for costs, they sound similar to the UK actually.
Fees are certainly not similar to those in England, which are now at £9000.
I meant accommodation etc, rather than fees
The news had the interesting story that NI and presumably English and Welsh prospective students who can claim an Irish or non UK passport are claiming to be exempt from fees in Scotland.I think education shopping will become more frequent whether we like it or not.
The rent question. I know Dublin is cheaper than London ( the eldest did his masters there) but dearer than other places.Though 9000£ minus 2259€ leaves a bit to spare.
Whether people admit it or not there is a difference between the University sector and the ITs.
And most University and IT people I know admit to grade inflation.
I wonder about the points vs A levels. Will the proposed reforms make a difference. Could it be judges discriminatory?
I would like to see some hard statistical evidence.
And I would add that the possibility of Quinn getting more or even the same funding for anything is unlikely.
Wait, an A at A Level counts for 135 points? That’s a hilariously transparent way to avoid large numbers of English students coming over to avoid the extortionate fees in English Universities.
What do you think it should score?
Above all avoid this trap ” They use interviews, evidence of commitment/work experience/empathy and the UKCAT etc to help select.”
We know that in this country accent, right school, family background (in law, medicine etc.) will come into play. Right junior will spend a summer helping out in Simon to show commitment. A points system (modified for sure) is blind. Markers do not know if the student is from Ballyfermot for Ballydehob, went to Clongowes or Collinstown.Of course they will select a token or two to prove their lack of bias.
I would add a general point. Equality starts with the primary. Make sure all have a quality primary experience and work up. It is in my opinion too late at the leaving certificate.
And a broader point, end the bias against practical skills. What is wrong with being a plumber. In Germany practical skills are respected. In the anglophone countries white collar is more esteemed than even money.
Before I left the old country (a couple of years ago now) there was a low sussurus of voices demanding an end to the points systems and the CAO. . . doubtless because it is, as Jim M says here, blind to whether or not any given student has the right accent or old school tie.
And back in the 1980s, I remember some eejit demanding that a certain number of places in medical school be reserved for medics’s children. This idea died an immediate death, and was never heard of again, but the fact that it could be seriously proposed tells us something about the mentalities that are out there.
I never proposed reservation of medical school places for medic’s kids.
I agree interviews are open to criticism, I wasn’t defending them just pointing out they are used in the UK for some popular courses e.g. medicine. There should be some consideration for admissions tutors faced with too many applicants likely to get the grades, for medicine anyway. As one said to me “I wish there was some magic way to identify the applicant who will make a good doctor!”. By which he meant that academic achievement alone didn’t tell him that. If they went by A levels alone in the UK then all medical students would be A*A*A*A* and all from public schools. Actually, the medical schools don’t want that. As Jim pointed out, the inequality starts earlier.
Interviews are the default method of choosing students on most courses, not just medical ones. In the more selective universities, choosing students purely on exam results is the exception, especially since if you did that you would be badly oversubscribed.
Of course Fergus. You would not suggest this. But while the up front “reserve places for those with heriditary medical or law etc.”died a death, the interview system is a more nuanced way of achieving the same.I would add that not all doctors are GPs. I don’t care if say a surgeon is an arrogant thug, as long as he is a good and fast butcher.
Could I add that outside these high marks subjects there are many who do not make it beyond first year. WE need to ask why not. Were they not up to it?, wrong career choice, hot house flowers who had not developed study skills, bad teaching at third level. One way or another what a waste. I am sure it could be reduced with some measures.
I’d have to agree with Jim. In a country this size with such a rich tradition of nepotism, favouritism and corruption the blind nature of the points system is a huge mark in its favour.