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Nicely put… February 22, 2013

Posted by WorldbyStorm in Economy, Irish Politics, The Left.
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…in relation to the property tax.

Sinn Féin TD Mary Lou Mc Donald said you “didn’t need to be a mathematical genius” to figure out that those on social welfare payments would not be in a position to pay this tax “this year, next year or the year after”.



The Sinn Féin TD said she wished to point out the “utter lunacy” of a taxation system, under which the only relief those on social welfare can avail of is to defer this tax to a later date for which the State will levy a 4 per cent interest charge.



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1. RosencrantzisDead - February 22, 2013

It becomes total lunacy when the government acknowledges that the society is also undergoing something of a consumer debt crisis and yet continues with a policy that will involve levying a further debt on people.

This is either the worst of optimism or the worst of cynicism.

2. D_D - February 22, 2013

This is the property tax that D Begg and the ICTU will not be opposing because it’s legislated in by parliament ( http://www.rte.ie/news/player/this-week/2013/0210/ ).

Sure why would the government bother about talks with the unions about Croke Park 2, where they can have an input to the outcome over the table (according to A Shatter), when the government could just, as they are threatening, legislate the wage cuts in and then D Beggs would go on RTE’s ‘This Week’ again and say sure we can’t oppose this because it was legislated by the parliament.

CMK - February 22, 2013

This property tax, as it is currently structured, represents a radical restructuring of the relations between state and citizen and, furthermore, in the triangular relation of state-citizen-business. And it is a restructuring that decisively places the citizen in a subservient position vis-a-vis both the state and, crucially, business.

Not only is the legislation itself extraordinarily draconian but the implementation of it verges on the totalitarian. While Revenue have always had the power to take sums from accounts, that has only ever applied to a small segment of the business class. In the context were nearly 700,000 households, representing well over a million and a half citizens, have refused to pay the household tax, and where many will likewise refuse to pay the property tax, allowing Revenue to go into bank accounts, wages, social welfare payments and just take it, with interest, represents a dramatic instance of the state overreaching itself. Today’s Irish Times is telling us that the Revenue Head, Josephine Feehily, confirmed that the would just take it from accounts in instances of non-payment.

This verges on the totalitarian because it is inconceivable for any Irish government to even contemplate taking taxes due directly from businesses. Given that we have some of the most profitable companies in the world, booking enormous sales and profits through their Irish operations (tens of billions annually) and, more often than not, paying neglible to no corporation tax, it’s clear that the state has gone over decisively, without even attempting to maintain a pretence of representation, to the cause of business. In this context the levying of the property tax represents the compulsory subsidisation, by workers, of the profits of, as I said, some of the most profitable companies on the globe. And the state is prepared to mobilise its coercive apparatus to enforce this transfer. I know that the same could be said for many other taxes and charges in this state but the outright larceny of workers to feed the corporate beast of ‘Foreign Direct Investment’ is being more starkly illustrated by the property tax. Such that it will be very difficult to ‘sell’ this. That the trade unions, as SIPTU confirm today, are not prepared to lift a finger on this issue, in the centenary of the Lockout confirms, that they content to push the union movement into irrelevance.

hardcore for nerds - February 22, 2013

I haven’t seen a detailed discussion of this ‘taking from accounts’ mechanism, but for PAYE workers income tax is already deducted at source, so it’s perhaps not such a stretch that the collection of property tax is ensured in a similar fashion?
Of course that just highlights the extent to which it is a property-based tax on income – I saw I think it was a letter to the IT pointing out that the property tax is in effect a wealth tax on part of rich people’s wealth (i.e., excluding financial, non-property assets) but on all of the wealth of lower and middle earners whose house is their main or only asset. Property should be taxed, but as part of a realistic assessment of wealth.

The MNC comparison doesn’t really hold either because it’s tax avoidance, not evasion – even if you hold them to be morally equivalent, they’re not legally and there’d be no basis for Revenue to pursue them for officially tax-free revenues.

CMK - February 22, 2013

I don’t agree with the points you’re making. While they are valid, in a certain context, I don’t think they address the substantive change that this property heralds. Yes, it’s true that income tax is deducted at source. But income hasn’t been highly politicised since the early 1980′s. While there are legitimate criticisms to be made of the Irish income tax system, and huge improvements that could be made, it is largely seen as legitimate, except perhaps by some of the self-employed and, of course, huge swathes of the business class.

The property tax, on the other hand, is massively controversial and will be contested intensely. It drags a hitherto apolitical Revenue directly into the middle of a possibly convulsive political battle. Also, as ‘Joe’ I think pointed out in another thread. Many public servants are going to be asked to take pay cuts, work longer hours and give up some of their hard won working conditions around the same time that they receive their property tax bills.

Regarding the MNC point you make. Yes, ostensibly the argument you forward there is plausible but my point is that a state which insists that the fundamental tenet of its sovereignty is the tax level on business profits, not only provides a raft of avoidance measures which allows business to fundamentally undermine the headline rate, so that the latter becomes almost irrelevant, then proceeds to draft legislation for its citizens of such a draconian nature. One would think that the Irish state, whose government are constantly proclaiming the state’s fiscal bankruptcy (‘we’re borrowing a billion a month to pay gardai, nurses and teachers’) studiously avoids asking enormously profitable companies to contribute more than the bare minimum.

At a political level, that degree of inconsistency, an inconsistency being worked out within a paradigm of extreme leniency and indulgence for business coupled with equally extreme enforcement measures for ordinary citizens, will render it very difficult for the state to ramp up the coercion if there is a huge boycott of the property tax; which there will be.

3. Ghandi - February 22, 2013

Recently I was commenting on a thread which I can’t now find with LATC about the WP reluctance to tackle the TU leadership, out of their own mouths came the following:-

“The Cork Regional Council of the Workers’ Party has issued the following circular in relation to anti-union comments from a minority of anti-austerity campaigners

There has been much comment following the recent ICTU-organised rallies against bank debt and austerity. In particular there has been debate on the role of the anti-Household Charge campaign and other anti-austerity groups in the march.

The Workers’ Party is concerned that some minority elements of the Household Charge campaign are engaging in attacks on the trade union movement. These elements also seem intent on using the campaign to promote their own electoral ambitions. We support the campaign against the household charge, property and water taxes and have been active in it since the beginning. Our 30 year track record in opposing such stealth charges is without equal. We believe that it was right for the campaign to participate in the rally on February 9th and in similar marches. However we do not support union-bashing and we stand with the many thousands of trade unionists in their struggle against austerity, in defence of workers’ rights and for social justice.

The Workers’ Party believes that the trade unions, with 600,000 members, can and should play a major role in fighting austerity. After all, trade union members are bearing a considerable burden as a result of the banking bailout and the EU/IMF deal. However, we are dismayed by the recent comments by ICTU General Secretary David Begg in support of the new property tax and his arrogant dismissal of those opposed to it. We view his comments as unrepresentative of rank and file trade unionists and contradictory of his stated opposition to austerity.

Instead of an unfair Property Tax, the Workers Party calls for a progressive Wealth Tax to be imposed on the super rich. This should target real wealth such as investment property, works of art, racehorses, yachts, holiday villas, etc. We believe that the modest family home should be exempt from such a tax.

Unfortunately some in the leadership of the trade union movement have become wedded to the so-called Partnership process which has been a disaster for workers. We believe that the close relationship between some unions and the Labour Party is outdated and anti-democratic. The recent comments by SIPTU President Jack O’Connor, supporting Labour Party involvement in government fails to recognise the disastrous impact of the FG / Labour coalition’s cuts and charges on most trade union members and those dependent on social welfare.

The Workers’ Party believes that the trade union movement is the natural ally of the working class and the poor. We believe that it should be in the vanguard of the fight against austerity, against privatisation of our state assets and natural resources and that it should lead a very vocal and determined campaign for the creation of real jobs (not schemes or internships). We call upon rank and file trade unionists to rise to support the anti-austerity campaign, to fight for a stronger position to be adopted by their union leaders and an end to the closeness with government and employers. We do so in solidarity and comradeship, not from a position of attack”.

Workers Unite to go up th ehill and back down, Old King Cole was a great leader !

Mark P - February 22, 2013

The word “slimey” springs to mind.

Branno's ultra-left t-shirt - February 22, 2013

I think your mixing a few metaphors there Gandhi….a long discussion about this on Look Left Facebook page and it relates (of course) to something that happened in Cork.

Mark P - February 22, 2013

Yes, a long discussion which reveals that the word “slimey” was overly generous to them.

The statement deliberately misrepresents the views of others in the CAHWT in order to allow the Workers Party to portray themselves as voices of reason between (harshly criticised) radical elements and (very gently criticised) bureaucrats. It quite deliberately conflates hostility to the union leaders with hostility to the unions. Shameless stuff.

Ciarán - February 23, 2013

The Workers’ Party is concerned that some minority elements of the Household Charge campaign are engaging in attacks on the trade union movement. These elements also seem intent on using the campaign to promote their own electoral ambitions.

That’s a bit rich from the WP considering the upcoming Meath East by-election.

4. Joe - February 22, 2013

“Instead of an unfair Property Tax, the Workers Party calls for a progressive Wealth Tax to be imposed on the super rich.”
Sounds good to me.

Was this something that happened in Cork related to the actions of looney right “Freemen” of some kind?

5. R Neuville (@LuroNeuville) - February 22, 2013

Whoever abolishes the Family Home tax will win the next election.


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