The Cedar Lounge Revolution

Interview with Archbishop Martin – Part Two December 23, 2012

… from today’s Mail on Sunday, and again part of a series conducted by Jason O’Toole. Those assuming any nascent liberalism in his message would be sorely disappointed – which on one level is fair enough. You don’t get to be Archbishop in the current period through an inclination to the heterodox. But it is interesting how he has been portrayed as a softer voice than those heard in the past. That may well be true, but the song remains the same.

[and] what about those in the Church who either covered up cases of abuse or turned a blind eye. Do they have questions to answer here? ‘We had in the archdiocese of Dublin a small number of serial paedophiles who did immense damage and they should have been stopped at the early stages. I honestly believe that mistakes were made somehow or other, that these people deceived people and played on divisions.

The state of the RCC in Ireland?

Dr Martin acknowledges that, in the wake of the scandals, the Church faces an uphill struggle to encourage people to return to Mass. It’s one of his major concerns for the New Year. ‘If I were to get out a graph it would show the number of people attending Mass is going down and the number of young people attending Mass is going down. If I were in business, the shareholders would probably be saying, “You’ve got the wrong man in there.” You’re facing this situation and you have to try and give leadership. On the other hand, you know your own limitations.’

Same-sex marriage?

When I broach the subject, the Archbishop says: ‘There are times when popular opinion may not be right. Morality can’t be built simply on public opinion polls. Parliamentarians are not elected to be herded; you give them a mandate to do what is best for the country. Sometimes, they should be able to stand up to their political leadership and even populist opinion.

And…

‘Marriage is something quite unique. There’s an enrichment of the relationship between a man and a woman that is unique. From a Christian point of view, from the very beginnings in the Scriptures, it says the image of God can be mirrored in male and female. That doesn’t necessarily mean that gay and lesbian people don’t have rights that have to be protected. It isn’t in denying marriage that they become second-class citizens.’

Hmmm….

Schools?

The issue of the Catholic Church handing schools back to the State will be at the forefront of debate next year, too. Will the Church be seeking financial compensation? ‘It’s a very complex question. Take, for example a school run by a religious congregation. There was support by the Government, by the local community and by the religious congregation, who’ve put a lot of money and effort back into a school – how is that to be compensated? They may have to maintain a large number of elderly religious and so on. Some recognition of that is part of it.

Abortion?

…for Dr Martin, the Church’s position is not negotiable. ‘There are two lives here and we must do everything we can to ensure that we deliver both safely,’ he says. ‘We were all unborn children at some stage. At that stage, all the potential that was in us was there. We should be able to look towards a situation that stresses the protection of both, as far as possible.’

Again, the language is more emollient. But…

Does he believe the Government will have blood on its hands if the legislation is enacted? ‘That’s not the language that I use,’ he says. ‘But I do say that all legislators should look from a moral point of view at the fact that we can work to ensure that both mother and child can survive, if possible. If a pregnancy is actually a threat, I think there are ways of dealing with that. The Constitution at the moment is about the equal protection for mother and child. If we lose that, I think we are losing something very significant.’

And it is interesting to note his response when given the example of slightly less abstract circumstances:

What about specific cases when an expectant mother could die if her pregnancy is not terminated? ‘You can’t legislate for every case. I believe the tight pro-life situation, that we’ve had in Ireland has actually driven the medical profession to reach a very high standard. By relaxing that, things could be different. All the indications are that cases like that are very rare. The fact is, the level of maternal mortality in Ireland is one of the lowest. I’m not too sure that changing the law will actually improve that. ‘There are always going to be cases where something happens, either the child is lost or, very rarely, the mother is lost. They are real tragedies. But we have the ability to continually to do better in those cases – to ensure healthy life for the mother and for the baby that’s being born. If we weaken that, then we are deciding that one life is more important than the other.

Politically there’s also a certain… well, read on…

How well does Dr Martin feel the current Government is serving society? ‘There’s a big political challenge. You don’t know who you are voting for any more because the likelihood of any parliament is that there will be a coalition.

You vote for one party and for its programme and then, when they don’t live up to that programme, you’re told: “Well, really what we are doing is the Government programme; it’s when we came together.” ‘This will bring a certain disillusionment with politics. You ask the other question – were the original aims realistic or were they simply promises or do they make plans that are possible but they know that they are never going to be realised because they’re going into a coalition?’

And this isn’t exactly the option for the poor…

‘I understand that it’s very difficult to write a budget and spend more when money isn’t there. But these across-the-board cuts are also pretty blunt instruments. You have to have some way of measuring. They should be constantly doing this, where the cuts are hurting more than they should be and where they are hurting the disadvantaged.’

A safe pair of hands? Yes, indeed.

Interview with Archbishop Diarmuid Martin… December 22, 2012

…by Jason O’Toole in the Mail. Some food for thought, this being more the colour piece as it’s a two parter, and tomorrows instalment promises his thoughts on the X case, same sex marriages and a church in crisis. As will be well known he’s the brother of Seamus Martin former Moscow correspondent of the Irish Times (and IIRC someone who wasn’t unsympathetic to the WP).

He had an ordinary working class background

Their father worked as a mechanic for CIÉ, but the Archbishop remembers the family constantly struggling. ‘Financially struggling, housing struggling, it was pretty rough,’ he says. ‘It was very hard to get a house at the time, [my parents] were pretty poor. ‘I moved to Ballyfermot when I was five, but before that we were living in pretty rough conditions with relatives because there was no housing. Then these new areas were built and people moved out to them, most of them from very similar conditions. ‘We lived opposite a pub and you had the problem on a Friday night of people spending their wages before they even got home. People built up lives for themselves and their children, but there was no luxury, there wasn’t very much around.

And while clearly compassionate there’s a sense that he’s in no way the liberal he’s sometimes portrayed as. Orthodox is the term that comes to mind.Even on the issue of marriage – while he admits he himself would have liked to have been a father:

[he] is, however, against the concept of priests being able to marry. ‘At the moment I would not be rushing to say it should change. Listening to bishops around the world, I don’t think there’s a great desire just now to change the law of celibacy. ‘When I’m ordaining a deacon I say to them: “Are you prepared to remain celibate for the rest of your life? For the sake of the kingdom?” And you’re looking at a man made of flesh and blood and it’s a huge commitment. If they lose that fundamental commitment then the celibacy becomes a burden.’

There are some fairly straightforward thoughts too, not quite motherhood and apple pie, but…

Archbishop Martin believes that we lost our way during the Celtic Tiger boom years when ‘people became more selfish’. In his Christmas message this year, the Archbishop will be urging his congregation to rebuild stronger relationships with neighbours, particularly the elderly and most vulnerable, in an effort to restore a community spirit that he feels is lacking.

None of that is incorrect, but it wasn’t the CT’s fault by a long shot. I’m sure many of us have heard same our entire adult lives, and long predating the CT.

And…

‘We have to refine the simplicity of Christmas, especially for children,’ says Archbishop Martin. ‘There’s a great thrill for children to get toys but I do think we should be going back to something more simple, and also things that have an educational value. ‘It may sound a bit old-fashioned or square to say something like that, but there can be ways of being much more constructive. ‘You see this in schools with children in Nativity plays and so on, this represents to a great extent a lot of the simplicity of Christmas. I think they are the things children will remember — they won’t remember the huge toys that break down very soon.’

I have to admit to really enjoying O’Toole’s rather laconic segue from the above paragraph:

Another thing children would remember would be a papal visit. I ask whether, as a personal friend of Pope Benedict XVI, the Archbishop thinks that there’s a possibility that he might visit Ireland? ‘The Pope is getting old so his trips are being limited. This year he’s going to World Youth Day in Latin America. There was a real possibility of it being the first time that a Pope didn’t go to a World Youth Day. It’s a huge event and they’re expecting four million young people in Rio de Janeiro and he decided to go. I think that will limit his possibility of [coming to Ireland].’

And what of this?

I ask if it’s true that his brother Seamus is actually an atheist and whether Archbishop Martin thinks that there is a place in heaven for non-believers? ‘I hope we’ll meet up there, both of us,’ he says. ‘We can talk with certainty about all sort of things, or we think we can. There’s two things we can’t talk with certainty about — what dying is about and then what happens after death? You’ve never spoken to a person about what it means to die. ‘We’ve all observed death, we’ve been with people when they die, but this is something that comes afterwards. In faith you can have an understanding of what it is, but the afterlife is something about an encounter with God, which enlightens who you were in a way that isn’t blurred by the things we think about.

Here’s hoping. Tomorrow’s piece should make for even more interesting reading.