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Stoneybatter and Smithfield Peoples History Project: 100th Anniversary Irish Citizen Army, 2nd of November October 30, 2013

Posted by WorldbyStorm in Uncategorized.

Draft ICA leaflet front 1


1. Free Saturday? | Broadsheet.ie - October 30, 2013

[…] The Cedar Lounge Revolution This entry was posted in Misc and tagged Irish Citizen Army, Smithfield, Stoneybatter […]


2. workers republic - October 30, 2013

I hope Brian will give the Citizen Army lecture in the Rebel City, I always found his talks to be very informative.
After Connolly’s death the ICA didn’t, as an organization take part in the defense of the Republic in the Tan or State wars.
Kevin Morley points to O’Neil as being responsible for this, in his book on the ICA. Of course individual members did fight, but with Volunteer units. I wonder what is Brian’s opinion on this.


Dr.Nightdub - October 31, 2013

WR, not sure if you’re right about the Citizens Army completely vanishing off the stage after Connolly’s death. Liz Gillis’ book “The Fall of Dublin” has detachments of them fighting as such in the early stages of the Civil War in O’Connell St and Talbot St.


workers republic - October 31, 2013

thanks Dr. N
I havent read LIZ Gillis’ book, the question is were they under Oglaigh na hÉireann comand or ica? And did she go to primary sources or secondary ones like RM Fox.
the history of the ICA is important as they were the first army of Industrial workers, argueably in the world.


Brian Hanley - October 31, 2013

If I’m invited down I’d be happy to do it WR!
The ICA reorganized after 1916 and existed until the end of the Civil War, but its activities were sporadic. I wrote an article on this for Saothar in 2003 – but I don’t actually have an electronic copy and I’m not sure if you can get it online.


workers republic - October 31, 2013

Thanks Brian,
I hope you are invited down. Solidarity bookshop have some backnumbers, I’ll see if the issue with your article on the ICA is there.
In solidarity,


David Convery - October 31, 2013

WR, Cork City Library stock back issues of Saothar upstairs in the reference section. First aisle on the left.


workers republic - October 31, 2013

Thanks David,
I can read it there.


Ciarán - October 31, 2013

Morley’s book is woeful, and all his stuff on James O’Neill was lifted directly from Frank Robbins. The problem with this is that Robbins was a loyal ITGWU man and he tried to play down the union’s role in sidelining the Citizen Army post-1916, so O’Neill became a convenient scapegoat.

I’m not saying O’Neill was blameless, especially when Robbins argues that he was eventually court martialled by the Army, but interestingly all other works on the ICA tend to skip over what happened to him, including Hanley’s Saothar essay. The Army Council minute book must from the period must address in some way what exactly went on there.

Speaking of Hanley’s essay, the ILHS are slowly making the entire back catalogue of Saothar available so I think it’s only a matter of time before issue 28 will be there for all to see. In the meantime, here’s a piece by Hanley that appeared in Siptu’s magazine Liberty: http://www.siptu.ie/aboutsiptu/history/thecitizensarmy/


workers republic - November 1, 2013

Ciaran, Go ra’maith agat. Ta an alt i Liberty an-shimiuil.


Brian Hanley - November 1, 2013

If I can remember it right, the ICA minute book didn’t go into detail on O’Neill’s case at all. The big problem for the post-1916 ICA is lack of source material. Bits and pieces turn up in various archives but its hard to get a real picture. The post 1934 ICA is easier because it published it’s own Bulletin, and was covered in the left/republican press, plus there’s a couple of Garda files in the National Archives.


CMK - November 1, 2013

How accurate are minute books as an historical source? Is there a danger, as there is with all minutes, that they could be selective and leave out arguments etc that the minute taker might not agree with?


3. David Convery - October 31, 2013

Hi Brian and WR. Saothar is on JSTOR now for anyone with access. Not sure what year it goes up to. I think there’s a 3-5 year embargo, so 2003 should be there.


workers republic - October 31, 2013

Thanks again!


4. Brian Hanley - November 1, 2013

Of course all sources need to be treated with caution. But minutes are usually written on the basis of being checked every week/month or whatever to see if people have done what they said they’d do. I’ve seen very detailed minutes of IRA conventions for example, with debates outlined in depth. Given we have so few sources for the post 1916 ICA, I just wish there were more minute books.


CMK - November 2, 2013

Cheers, for the clarification.


5. Jim Monaghan - November 19, 2013


Ranor Lysaght on same The Irish Citizen Army, 1913-16: White, Larkin and Connolly

Published in 1913, 20th-century / Contemporary History, Features, Issue 2 (Mar/Apr 2006), Revolutionary Period 1912-23, Volume 14

Captain James Robert (‘Jack’) White, first commander of the Irish Citizen Army. (George Morrison)
Captain James Robert (‘Jack’) White, first commander of the Irish Citizen Army. (George Morrison)


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