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A more positive presentation of the 12th August 9, 2017

Posted by WorldbyStorm in Uncategorized.

I’m curious – the 12th is now a month behind us. Reading accounts some from unionist sources suggest 5% of all are problematic. That’s quite a lot of problematic events. I’m not talking about the marches as such, but more about aspects of the bonfires etc.

There’s a piece on Slugger here that cries for toleration. And indeed that’s something that is important. But the piece itself shies away from any engagement with the most toxic aspects of these events. It just doesn’t address them at all. Again, as noted last week in relation to Arlene Foster’s comments it is a completely different phenomenon is being described. This aversion to a deeply problematic aspect of reality is dispiriting. Without some engagement with the fact that some aspects are deeply problematic it is difficult to see how matters move on.

But is there a possibility that such events could be reframed more positively and what would that look like? And how would this work in a future united Ireland?


1. Joe - August 9, 2017

How would this work in a united Ireland? Sure it’ll be grand. That fine body of men, An Garda Síochána, will handle it all in fine style.

Now, lads, the Twelfth is comin up again. Now I know ye want to have yere fun. And sure why wouldn’t ye? Sure don’t we all like our bit of fun now and agin. But listen now lads. Last year there was blatant placing of bonfires beside dwelling houses. Lads, ye can’t be doin that. Down there in Carrickbilly poor oul’ Missus McClelland, the widda McClelland, she was nearly burned out of house and home by a bonfire that was built beside her house. Built by what can only be described as a bunch of ludramawns that have no respect for man nor beast.
Lads, now listen here lads, ye can’t be doin the likes of that anymore. We won’t be havin it sure we won’t. The book’ll be out so it will…

Yes, the Twelfth in a UI? Sure it’ll be grand.


WorldbyStorm - August 9, 2017

Well that wouldn’t be the worst


EWI - August 9, 2017

There are, marvellously, ‘Twelfths’ in the southern Republic already. There are even perfectly civil and normal interactions with the Guards, begob.

Liked by 1 person

2. benmadigan - August 9, 2017

“is there a possibility that such events could be reframed more positively and what would that look like?”

I believe that was tried with the so-called Orangefest – which got exactly nowhere.
It seems impossible to transform pseudo-military marches that are hate-based, into something more amenable to a modern European society

here’s how much NI’s obsession with the Orange costs https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/northern-ireland-how-much-do-your-obsessions-cost/


3. roddy - August 9, 2017

wbs ,if you’re looking for solutions,forget about slugger.


4. Dermot O Connor - August 9, 2017

Cruise O Brien (during his Quixotic phase as a member of the Unionist Party, remember that?) wrote that the parades were a good thing, in the sense that they were a ritualised insult, rather than a physical one.

Of course, an easy attitude to hold when you live over 100 miles south of the border; the ritualised insult wasn’t marching down the streets of his leafy suburb.

Liked by 2 people

5. Miguel62 - August 9, 2017

Ah, come on now! I’m all for tolerance and pluralism but really? Putting a positive spin on the Orange Order is putting a positive spin on bigotry and racism (and a bit of misogyny too for good measure.)

I mean I’m sure there’s somebody now in the deepest Deep South stroking his chin and going: Hey, I’ve gotta idea! Why don’t we have a cultural reimagining of the Klan? Let’s call it ConfederacyFest – ConFest for short. Lots of jolly community activities, fancy dress parades, burning stuff, celebrating ancient butcherings of themmuns, that sort of thing. How could anybody possibly object??


GW - August 10, 2017

Don’t be giving them ideas, Miguel!


6. benmadigan - August 9, 2017

And of course Dermot there are about 4,000 odd of these “ritualised insults” every year.

Every year, year in, year out, bar a few exceptions when they Orange Order were banned in the 19th C, since 1795

Has anyone ever given a thought to their deleterious psychological effects? On both sides?
is it not time for some respite?



EWI - August 9, 2017

As presently constituted North of the border they inevitably rub people up the wrong way being vehicles for Protestant supremacy. Strange how on our side they’re no longer an issue (deliberately provocative forays like ‘Love Ulster’ apart).


7. makedoanmend - August 10, 2017

There seems to be a growing group(s) who would like to turn back history and assert superiority and hierarchy of identities.

Also, in tandem, there appears to be a growing movement of those who want to parade their little “foibles” openly; whether it be a smattering of racism, a smidgeon of sexism or a good dollop of sectarianism. We must tolerate their intolerances, even when we are the objects of their intolerance.

That’ll work.


GW - August 10, 2017

+1 Well put.


Miguel62 - August 10, 2017

There is a difference between tolerating their intolerences – a good thing in my view – and public promotion and celebration of that intolerance by wider civil society. So the orange order marches shouldn’t be banned, but neither should it be celebrated as Orangefest concept was intended to bring about.


makedoanmend - August 10, 2017

I hope this clarifies my previous thought.

Sure, I can live with those who disagree with my viewpoints. “I disagree with what you say but I will defend your right to say what you want.”

What is the upshot where societies are not based on equality nor where the power relations between individuals or between groups have been devised to maintain some sort of equilibrium with relation to equality – or when intolerance begins to shift the equilibrium of equality leading to imbalance and outright discrimination?

When hierarchy of power and authority over others allows or indeed insists upon intolerance and discrimination then I would assert that one should not be asked nor required to tolerate intolerance. The reference to power relations predicated my reference to tolerance [“also in tandem”.]

Tolerance is fine when the institutions of power and authority recognize that discrimination is not a basis upon which to organise society. Many state constitutions and other instruments or laws base their tolerance of human behaviour and norms by insuring that intolerance of other’s rights cannot be diminished in any manner nor that individuals or groups are denied defense against any type of hurt simply to allow others to enjoy their intolerances.

One may say they dislike x (because someone’s skin colour is different, for example). Fine. I just won’t interact with that person again.

However, I will not tolerate their behaviour if they say they do not like x to their face. I especially will not tolerate that behaviour when x is in a vulnerable position, or, indeed, when the intolerant show that they can flaunt their intolerance in the face of x because the norms of a society have largely tolerated their actions in the past.

So, no, I cannot in good faith countenance tolerating intolerance where intolerance begs legitimacy simply because we should all be tolerant of difference viewpoints. Without regard to how those intolerant viewpoints may impact on vulnerable people or when intolerance leads to outright discrimination then tolerance has its limits.



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