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What you want to say – 30th August 2017 August 30, 2017

Posted by WorldbyStorm in Uncategorized.
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As always, following on Dr. X’s suggestion, it’s all yours, “announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose”, feel free.

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1. bjg - August 30, 2017

For folk interested in Brexit, here is a page with links to several academic articles, forming a “virtual special issue” of the British Journal of Politics and International Relations http://journals.sagepub.com/page/bpi/collections/virtual-issues/brexit. Includes “Northern Ireland and Brexit: Three effects on ‘The border in the mind'” by Cathy Gormley-Heenan and Arthur Aughey. Lots to read and I have only just started. bjg

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GW - August 30, 2017

Briefly skimmed the abstracts and there’s some interesting reading there.

Thanks bjg.

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WorldbyStorm - August 31, 2017

+1 Thanks bjg

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2. Aengus Millen - August 30, 2017

This business with the public services card is troubling. The government seems to be trying to make this card mandatory for many services without really having a public debate or passing a bill through the dail. Especially worrying is the suggestion that the process of getting this card could eventually involve fingerprinting. Anyway hopefully the public outrage will make the government rethink but we’ll see.

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WorldbyStorm - August 31, 2017

I’ll be intrigued to see who outside of the obvious will contest it. Now we’ll see just how liberal some of the so-called liberals actually are.

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Aengus Millen - September 1, 2017

I kind of hoped ff would have learned from Irish water to come out against these things before the become unpopular but their line which was “not opposed in principle” which was not encouraging

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irishelectionliterature - September 1, 2017

Don’t fancy the fingerprinting bit but have no real objection otherwise. I have one of the cards myself from a period on the dole. It seems to have been rolled out gradually.
My son was applying to do the Driver theory test but needs one of these cards first. It’s inconvenient but I assume once he gets the card he won’t have to get one again for a long time and it will then ease his access to services should he need them.

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3. Liberius - August 31, 2017

…

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Miguel62 - August 31, 2017

Look, the phrase “emotional terrorism” was completely OTT and didn’t help making the case. But the case for taking the vaccine is really good. It will prevent so many cervical cancers and I can’t see how a proven benefit like that can be trumped by feelings and intuitions no matter how sincerely held. Worse still is that the ultra conservative wing of the so called pro life crowd have been running a whispering campaign against the vaccine because it protects women from something that is sometimes transmitted through sexual contact. And you can’t be too careful when it comes to anything that might encourage that sort of thing.

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WorldbyStorm - August 31, 2017

+1 As the parent of a daughter I get how difficult all this can be for some people but as you say that’s not sufficient. Ultimately there are both individual and greater goods and the vaccine is essential in both instances – it’s very troubling to see take up dip to 50% IIRC.

On a curious related note I’ve been very interested in reading up about stress related somatic illnesses – I had a headache for months which I know was a function of stress rather than anything else (and my doctor agreed after some tests). I was particularly interested in the fact that it was a very real pain but it was clearly not a product of biological processes, good or bad (other perhaps than some referred neck pain). The problem is that the constellation of symptoms that are pointed to as negative outcomes in the above case of the vaccines are similar in nature rather than a function of the vaccine. And trying to get across that they can be ‘real’ but unconnected is difficult.

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Miguel62 - August 31, 2017

Yes, as a parent of daughters too it was a no brainer in our household. Protects them and the wider community. I thought Louise O’Reilly ( who is normally dead sound on health issues) was a bit wishy washy about the whole thing. Too much sitting on the fence, respect for both points of view etc. This one is clear and needs to be called clearly. Even if it loses a few votes from the sadly misinformed.

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WorldbyStorm - August 31, 2017

She’s a sensible person, I don’t get it. I know some of the anti-crowd have been lobbying TDs ferociously and some of the left Indos have come out with far too generous statements for that side. As you say, too much sitting on the fence.

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GW - September 1, 2017

My daughter got it – after asking for it – and I’m happy that was her choice as well as her parents.

SF really doesn’t want to go down this anti-science, anti-public health road. On purely political grounds it’s small pickings of a number of obsessives as against general loss of reputation.

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gendjinn - September 1, 2017

Read the article, especially the end, Newstalk being disingenuous with the title.

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Liberius - September 1, 2017

“I have met people who believe – and they wholeheartedly believe – that their daughters have been impacted adversely by the HPV vaccine,” she said.

“But I also know that we have a chance to eradicate cervical cancer and we should take that run with it.

“The drop-off in vaccine rates is very concerning but also we cannot dismiss the concerns of mothers.”

The problem there is that that position amounts to giving undue weight to crank concerns which multiple studies have haven’t found evidence for (I’m being diplomatic phrasing it like that). I don’t think Newstalk are being too disingenuous, at least no more so than the doublespeak in those quotes from O’Reilly which essentially amounts to a de facto anti-vaccine position.

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Alibaba - September 1, 2017

O’Reilly didn’t give an ‘anti-vaccine position’. On the contrary she stated: ‘we should take that run with it’, referring to the HPV vaccine.

But I guess it would be fair to say that Sinn Féin are speaking out of both sides of the mouth on this one. My daughter was reluctant to take the vaccine because of all the hearsay about alleged side effects. It would be better for SF to stand firm in supporting scientifcally approved practice. 

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Liberius - September 1, 2017

To be fair I did prefaced that with ‘de facto’, albeit I know that others will be more forgiving of the contradictions in the quotes than I’ll ever be.

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gendjinn - September 2, 2017

While in agreement on vaccine policy. I just can’t get on board with criticizing someone for asking doctors & health boards to have some sympathy for the concerns of parents of sick children.

These comments are not endorsing anti-vax positions and from someone who several here say is generally sound on the issue.

Get a followup statement, she’s on twitter for example. If she is going to advance an anti-vax line you will have definitive proof and the denunciations will be loud. OTOH if she rejects the ambiguity and makes clear her position is for vaccinations then problem solved, anti-vaxxers rebuffed and turns out to be storm-in-a-teacup.

Fair enough?

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Liberius - September 3, 2017

I just can’t get on board with criticizing someone for asking doctors & health boards to have some sympathy for the concerns of parents of sick children.

Who’s objecting though to sick children being dealt with the utmost care by there doctors for the conditions they have? I think the issue here is that we have people raising ‘concerns’ without any evidence of connection to the thing they are blaming, and indeed after the multiple studies have proven links to the illnesses blamed to be baseless. There are no legitimate concerns around the vaccine, that information has been put out there already, you can’t do more than that. Giving them more publicity does nothing but contrive to perpetuate false views amongst the public that there are still questions to answer in relation to the vaccine, there are not.

Get a followup statement, she’s on twitter for example. If she is going to advance an anti-vax line you will have definitive proof and the denunciations will be loud. OTOH if she rejects the ambiguity and makes clear her position is for vaccinations then problem solved, anti-vaxxers rebuffed and turns out to be storm-in-a-teacup.

Fair enough?

I love the idea that it’s the job of a random and inconsequential commenter on a political blog to get the Sinn Fein health spokesperson to clarify/retract comments made publicly. I’m far from the most important person to have objected to her comments; I believe the Sunday Times (or the Times from yesterday?) has something on it, maybe she should clarify herself to them, much more public than to a meaningless commenter like me.

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Alibaba - September 3, 2017

When I read the comments saying that O’Reilly is ‘generally sound’ and can be ‘impressive’ I am thinking I don’t dispute this, but that is not the issue.

Any politician should not primarily be judged on their own personal merits and purported policy beliefs, but on what contributes to holding them accountable and the context in which they exist.

And the context is this: the uptake of students taking the vaccine fell from a peak of almost 90 per cent to 50 per cent last year. I don’t deny the right of O’Reilly to do the courtesy of recognising the concerns of some parents. Yet I do express dismay that the Sinn Féin spokesperson on health did not make it known that those concerns have been scientifically proven to be inaccurate and it would be inadvisable not to encourage people to vaccinate according to health experts. 

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gendjinn - September 3, 2017

The only thing I can see we disagree on is whether or not the rep’s statements are sufficient to proceed to immolation. You think yes, I’d like clarification.

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Alibaba - September 3, 2017

gendjinn, I cannot see what you are getting at.  I’m not into character assassination or ‘immolation’ of O’Reilly. The point I make is this: she should have attempted to relate and explain the Sinn Féin take on this issue in a considered and timely way. Thinking about such things, one might say she (and SF) showed poor judgement or political opportunism. In any event I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on our differing views.

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gendjinn - September 4, 2017

Alibaba, that was for Liberius, not yourself. Sorry about that.

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Liberius - September 4, 2017

…are sufficient to proceed to immolation.

Well, since I don’t smoke I have to put that zippo to some other use.

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gendjinn - September 4, 2017

I’ve got the Marin county anti-vaxxer nutters just up the road from me. Those people even refused to vaccinate their kids when there was a young girl with cancer in the school.

So the CA legislature removed the conscience exemption from vaccinations that was put there to avoid having to deal with religious nuts.

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dublinstreams - September 4, 2017

O’Reilly didn’t express sympathy she said respect their concerns with the the vaccine. She should have exprssed sympathy for the mothers respect the medical advice.

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4. Miguel62 - September 1, 2017

Look, a publicly funded, free at the point of use, mass vaccine programme represents the finest elements of a good national health service. Especially when the science is so overwhelming. And when it’s targeting a particular womens’ health issue, all the better, because, let’s face it, the Irish state’s score card on this front is pretty grim to say the least.
So this should be an absolute no-brainer for anyone on the left. It’s pretty obvious here that a misplaced, don’t-risk-offending-anyone strategy is at play. I understand the pragmatism but I’m disappointed at the lack of a principled position. (But like I said, this is not to take away from Loiuse’s very impressive performance generally on health issues. I’ve met her on trade union stuff and she is very sound and a great fighter and workers advocate – this needs to be said)

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5. ar scáth a chéile - September 1, 2017

Companeros, any luck with those two hurling final tickets for me- promise to like all CLR comments by whoever looks after me on this for the next year

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bearnagaoithe - September 4, 2017

Ah ar scath. Sorry. I was out of the country and didn’t bother looking for tickets. Commisserations on the result – you’re a Deise man, yes? Did you get to the game?

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ar scáth a chéile - September 5, 2017

Not a prayer -was reduced to asking if anyone had a spare “ticket wanted” sign going.
I m Dublin but knew it was going to be special day and was mad keen to be there. Great win for Galway- Micheal Donoghue giving the cup to his Dad was brilliant – a wonderful day of solidarity across the generations

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6. roddy - September 1, 2017

Liberius is not interested on her being “sound,a great fighter and workers advocate”.His only interest is SF bashing.

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Liberius - September 1, 2017

O’Reilly isn’t the first politician I’ve criticized for pandering to the anti-vax crowd, and probably won’t be the last. But if you want wave on through this stuff because she’s one of your lot then fine, your problem not mine.

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Mike Atkinson - September 1, 2017

“O’Reilly isn’t the first politician I’ve criticized for pandering to the anti-vax crowd, and probably won’t be the last. But if you want wave on through this stuff because she’s one of your lot then fine, your problem not mine.”

If Sinn Fein called for law making it compulsory for cigarettes to be sold to kindergarten children, I suspect Roddy would not only defend the policy, he’d call any Irish person who disagreed with it a “Stater” and a “West Briton”.

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WorldbyStorm - September 2, 2017

Yeah, I don’t think that’s fair to Liberius who has long had a very coherent view on these matters.

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7. roddy - September 1, 2017

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

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8. Mike Atkinson - September 1, 2017

“ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ”.

Yes, when I find myself reading Roddy’s posts, I find that my insomnia is rapidly cured. 😉

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9. Starkadder - September 1, 2017

I’m disappointed to see O’Reilly’s shaky stance on the HPV issue. The vaccine is safe to use and beneficial.

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10. Liberius - September 3, 2017

While in Opposition last year, Mr McGrath asked Leo Varadkar, then minister for health, to support Regret, a group campaigning against the vaccine. He also asked Mr Varadkar to “remove the HPV vaccine Gardasil as a matter of priority”.

He told the Sunday Times that his “current position is of course that these concerns have to be examined and looked at carefully”.

“I won’t be rowing back from that position because of some of the events internationally.”

They have been though, which is why this sort of stuff is de facto anti-vax.

Actually I’ll link back to the NCM thread where I listed multiple sources of information contradicting the claims.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/mcgrath-performs-u-turn-over-opposition-to-hpv-vaccine-1.3207990

The National Citizens Movement

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11. Pasionario - September 4, 2017

On the issue of vaccines, I had to get vaccinated against Hepatitis B a few years. It was a requirement for work abroad. It’s not typical in Ireland at all, and my (Irish) doctor appeared deeply puzzled as to why People Like Us would be required to get the jabs (a course of three).

Only later did I realize that he was blowing a dog whistle in my face. Those at risk of Hep. B are prostitutes, drug addicts, and their children. BUT the chances of at-risk individuals contracting Hep. B are greatly reduced if everyone is vaccinated including people not at risk. This is why you need vaccination programs to be universal, publicly organized, and more or less compulsory.

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GW - September 4, 2017

I got that years ago for travelling off the beaten track in South America and Africa. The justification was that if one needed emergency invasive medicine in poor and poorly equipped circumstances then better safe than sorry. Especially with the uncertainty about blood replacement at the time.

But your point about herd immunity is the telling one – a public good that protects individuals.

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12. Liberius - September 4, 2017

Here’s a quote from O’Reilly in a written question from the 20th June, 2017;

1187. To ask the Minister for Health if an investigatory body will be put in place to examine the cases of children that have displayed adverse effects after receiving the HPV vaccine; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27216/17]

Yeah, that’s definitely not implying that there are still queries hanging over the vaccine. And for good measure here’s Labour’s Brendan Ryan on the same day:

1183. To ask the Minister for Health if he will put in place an investigation into the use of the HPV vaccine gardasil and its impact on young girls and women that have received the vaccine; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27205/17]

Totally not undermining public confidence without evidence.

Tommy Broughan absolutely not doing the same on the 7th of March, 2017

628. To ask the Minister for Health his views on Gardasil; if treatment plans have been worked out for the cohort of girls affected by adverse reactions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12000/17]

Or Maureen O’Sullivan definitely not suggesting that the vaccine has caused illnesses that multiple studies haven’t found evidence for, on the 7th of May

256. To ask the Minister for Health his views on the severe symptoms suffered by more than 100 girls that received the HPV vaccine; if he will meet the group representing these girls; and the steps he will take to establish the cause of their symptoms [21047/17]

Here’s Willie Penrose from the 23rd of May (the link for that one includes one of the more minor of Clare Daly’s innumerable questions pandering to the anti-vaxxers)

538. To ask the Minister for Health if, in relation to the use of gardasil HPV vaccine and the significant health side effects that have been documented by a number of persons that suffered as a result of vaccination, if he will put in place an appropriate and proper investigation of persons that became ill in the aftermath of the vaccination; the steps he will take to put in place an appropriate treatment and redress plan; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24742/17]

The most serious though is from SF TD Kathleen Funchion on the 28th of March which as you can see from the quote is outright scaremongering that isn’t even using the doublespeak of some other TDs.

406. To ask the Minister for Health his views on the fact that by continuing with the HPV vaccination programme there will be a further percentage of girls displaying serious medical difficulties if action is not taken now and in view of the fact that it is highlighted to all parties involved and may yet lead to a public inquiry at some date in the future; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15390/17]

The stuff pumped out by the usual suspects like Mattie McGrath (and a legion of other parish pumpers) are much less relevant to CLR, so I’ve decided to omit them, along with the aforementioned innumerable Clare Daly questions.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-06-20a.3128&s=HPV#g3129.q

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-03-07a.1664&s=Gardasil#g1665.q

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-05-03a.664&s=HPV#g665.q

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-05-23a.1078&s=HPV#g1083.q

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-03-28a.1064&s=HPV#g1065.q

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gendjinn - September 5, 2017

All seem reasonable requests.

Not sure where you are getting an anti-vax position from those quotes.

Or are you asserting that there are never any adverse consequences to anyone taking a vaccine?

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Liberius - September 5, 2017

The ones they are going on about have been refuted though (which makes them unreasonable). Go to the researchgate article in the NCM thread I linked to above, might do you some good.

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gendjinn - September 5, 2017

Heh.

I am a scientist and spent almost a decade researching cystic fibrosis and lung development therapies for premature babies.

Vaccines have clinical trials and not all make it through nor are clinical trials perfect.

Vaccines, even the “safe” ones we give our kids, sicken and kill people every single year.

You are as ignorant of science as the anti-vaxxers and you are far more pernicious because you give ammunition to the anti-vaxxers by denying the limitations and flaws in vaccines. Educate yourself rather than trying to teach your granny how to suck eggs.

Peace.

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Liberius - September 5, 2017

<blockquoteVaccines have clinical trials and not all make it through nor are clinical trials perfect.

The Research Gate paper contains details of multiple post-trials studies conducted by sources independent of the drug companies; are you contesting the validity of these studies?

Gendjinn it strikes me that rather your attempting to hide behind your education by claiming superiority of knowledge, something I’ve never been crass enough to ever do (you’ll also note in the NCM thread I when into the case of Dr. Deirdre Little, who also uses her supposed credentials to bamboozle people); I’ve never denied the limitations of any vaccine, nor flaws, I’m only working with known evidence, something you seem unwilling to do, which for somebody who claims a scientific background is shocking. That is far worse than anything these politicians have said.

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gendjinn - September 5, 2017

No. I’m not.

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Liberius - September 5, 2017

Then what’s the problem? We are in agreement, the vaccine is safe.

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gendjinn - September 5, 2017

I just remembered that this is verbatim the “rebuttal” I’d get from climate change deniers with business degrees. If I was going to boast I would have said my final year undergrad project was published in Nature.

Known evidence: There are sick kids, no one knows why. Parents are concerned. Parents believe it’s connected to vaccinations. Who care what the parents believe. The kids are sick and rep is asking for someone to figure out the problem.

Again, as I said at the very beginning of this thread. I support vaccinations, but I cannot get on board with criticizing someone for advocating compassion, empathy and support from doctors & healthboards for sick children and their families. And I do not care one whit WHAT the families believe or do not believe when there are sick people involved. But you wanted to get stuck into someone and willfully deluded yourself into believing the quotes advocating for PEOPLE were quotes advocating a POSITION.

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dublinstreams - September 5, 2017

“I have met people who believe – and they wholeheartedly believe – that their daughters have been impacted adversely by the HPV vaccine,” she said.

“The drop-off in vaccine rates is very concerning but also we cannot dismiss the concerns of mothers.”

This is a quote advocating for a position re vaccine, rather then concern for sick children.

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13. Liberius - September 4, 2017

WbS, It looks like a comment of mine using multiple links has been eaten by the spam filter.

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WorldbyStorm - September 4, 2017

Apologies, off line for a while it should be up now.

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14. fergal - September 4, 2017

On the whole vaccine thing somebody explained to me recently that a certain cohort of people will always be sick after a vaccine-coeliacs for example unless you have gluten-free and lactose free vaccines- anybody know if this is true? It sounds like something that the super-rich pharma firms would know about, deosn’t it? Could this explain what’s happening here? I have no idea or is it psychosomatic as World suggested above?

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Miguel62 - September 4, 2017

Liberius, I’m coming around to your point of view on this. I’m quite shocked by some of those quotes from people who should know better. I think it’s down to a misplaced anti-establishment instinct. Or less kindly a knee jerk reaction. Fair enough, Big Pharma is not to be trusted and is guilty of many crimes of omission and commission. But, but, but, that does not mean that we throw modern medicine out with the ineffective overpriced bathwater.
There is a more general problem going on here and that is the instinct of some on the left (in a very broad sense) to instinctively oppose anything proposed by the “establishment” without analysing whether the proposal is good or bad. This can even veer into freeman territory.
However, the solution is more a case of trying to encourage well meaning people (like O’Reilly) to take a more principled stand rather than denunciation.

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WorldbyStorm - September 4, 2017

” I think it’s down to a misplaced anti-establishment instinct. Or less kindly a knee jerk reaction.”

+1

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gendjinn - September 5, 2017

Vaccines are not perfect, they still injure and kill people every year. No system created by humans is perfect.

So we have over 100 girls who are sick after the receiving the HPV vaccine and because the parents believe there is a link (there probably isn’t) Liberius essentially argues that their concerns and their sick kids should be ignored because ANTI-VAXX OMG BS.

THERE ARE SICK KIDS IT IS IRRELEVANT WHAT ANYONE IS SAYING ABOUT VACCINES. THERE ARE SICK KIDS. How are an elected representative ask for some concern and support for sick kids and their families.

I’m a geneticist and I support vaccinations but I know the science whereas it seems others as ignorant of science as the anti-vaxxers are grinding a political axe. I find that unacceptable and infuriating WHEN THERE ARE SICK CHILDREN!

Fair enough?

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WorldbyStorm - September 5, 2017

One has to detach the two issues though. Sick kids can be sick for numerous reasons and the vaccine is unrelated. Vaccines can indeed injure and kill people but in this instance this one isn’t doing that.

I’ve noted above how I had what I figure was stress related illness earlier this year for months. That was real pain. But it wasn’t related to organic aspect x y or z. So one treats the sickness or symptoms of same while keeping in mind only a vanishingly small number of those who are sick will be sick as a side effect.

That in a way is part of the problem in relation to TDs responses. That they’re not stating clearly that there isn’t an organic link between sicknesses where they occur and the vaccine itself. And those are authority figures. I’ve no problem with them expressing sympathy for those who are sick while simultaneously pointing out that the sickness cannot in this instance be a result of the vaccine. That’s the message that needs to get out there.

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Liberius - September 5, 2017

One has to detach the two issues though. Sick kids can be sick for numerous reasons and the vaccine is unrelated. Vaccines can indeed injure and kill people but in this instance this one isn’t doing that.

That’s the thing, I’ve never suggested anything otherwise, medical conditions should always be given the due concern they deserve, but not in the context of drawing links to a vaccine that multiple studies have failed to find connections to. I just don’t see how this is a hard position to understand.

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gendjinn - September 7, 2017

This is how an unambiguously anti-vax position is dealt with: “I cocked up”.

Additionally one should recognize when someone is attaching two detached things to create a storm in a tea cup.

And look how precisely what I said would happen, transpired – SF were forced to clarify and come out strongly for vaccination – WIN. Simultaneously there’s the example of an anti-vax statement from a politician causing a very public climbdown and admission that vaccinations are the way to go – WIN.

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dublinstreams - September 7, 2017

I found the I cocked up article very unconvincing it was too quick turn around on what he said before bringing in personal stuff rather then talking about the vaccine. He needs to undo the doubt he amplified This is better https://twitter.com/FinianMcGrathTD/status/905784034822934528 but he still needs to distance himself from Regret.

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GW - September 5, 2017

Naively – why would anyone put either gluten or lactose in a vaccine suspension?

But there’s (tiny amounts of )lactose in some, for some reason.

Surely not an essential ingredient, however?

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GW - September 5, 2017

The key ingredient in all vaccines is the active ingredient. This is the part that challenges the immune system so that it makes antibodies that can fight the disease. Apart from this, the main ingredient in vaccines is water. Most injected vaccines contain 0.5 millilitres of liquid, in other words a few drops. All other ingredients weigh a few milligrams (thousandths of a gram) or even less.

It’s mainly water and active vaccination ingredient folks. I’m not sure that lactose intolerant people have to worry about such tiny amounts.

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Liberius - September 5, 2017

The site you linked to lists it as a stabiliser.

Sorbitol and other stabilisers

…Other products used in very small quantities as stabilisers in vaccines include:

Sugar (sucrose)
Lactose (milk sugar)…

I think it’s fair to say that in vaccines that contain lactose that the quantity isn’t sufficient to cause any problems (I believe most lactose-intolerant people can live with much larger quantities in their diets)

My understanding is there aren’t any vaccines (open to correction) that contain gluten (gluten being a cereal protein) so that isn’t relevant.

And anyway Lactose and Gluten would do nothing other than cause the symptoms of lactose intolerance and Coeliac disease.

Allergies are another thing, but that is already a known issue with people allergic to ingredients of certain vaccines advised against vaccination. Gardasil doesn’t contain any of the major allergens, so is a low risk for allergic reaction; much lower than for most food stuffs that contain allergens like nuts, which these anti-vaxxers aren’t suggesting should be pulled from supermarket shelves.

However, the solution is more a case of trying to encourage well meaning people (like O’Reilly) to take a more principled stand rather than denunciation.

They’ve been told repeatedly by the medical community that the vaccine is safe, why would these people be encouraged more by me than by the medical community. Remember I’m not a medical professional nor a scientist, just a random member of the public with enough awareness to search for publicly available information from proper sources rather than from conspiracy websites, I don’t see why we can’t expect at least the same from elected representatives and their assistants (it didn’t take me long, and I’m not paid to do it)

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15. makedoanmend - September 5, 2017

Having to study these topics (somewhat topographically at this stage) I find that the two largest advances for health for the average worker is 1) hygiene and epidemiology and 2) vaccination.

I vividly remember when the nationwide vaccine program was first rolled out. Vaccination information was disseminated at the national level via news organisations and also at school level; including details given to parents by letters. We, as the first universally vaccinated school age population, were told to look around the room (about 30’ish pupils) and to try and image that 2 to 5 of our classmates would become seriously ill and probably die from now preventable diseases. There was a risk some of us would get mildly ill from vaccination and there was a very, very tiny chance that someone could die – 1 in millions. And a possibly nobody would die, but the maths of 10%+ your classmates very, very likely dying was understandable to even my maths addled brain.

These were not scare tactics to induce compliance. This was the truth. The verified truth. It made an impact.

Last year in Edinburgh at university level, there was a measles outbreak because so many younger people had not been inoculated.

This is not an issue that should be politicised in any form – either by politicians who are out of their conceptual depths nor by those who would oppose the politician’s stances.

Rather, get in contact with the politicians and set them straight. Be relentless.

It seems that when we play politics with health issues nobody wins but some definitely suffer consequences.

No health system is full-proof, but we’ve made massive strides and cannot let them regress due to “giving balance” to bad understanding.

What is troubling is that many (especially people we would think of as being fairly well educated) are at the vanguard of challenging basic science, and the underlying statistical evidence, on health issues. I can only surmise they don’t have a grasp of maths and statistics, nor any conception of the countless death toll from preventable diseases before the advent of vaccines.

Many seem to think on a virtually individualistic level without any conception of communal associations.

It seem health issues, like worker’s rights, can be easily turned back. And turned back by a cohort who would seem fairly well educated on other matters.

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WorldbyStorm - September 5, 2017

I think It is emotion – misplaced emotion – and a determination to control ones life despite the reality that that is impossible. Two things in your comment particularly hit home,first the idea that not vaccinating has no cost or negative outcomes,secondly the need to point this up that x people will die if not vaccinated. No iifs and no buts and that the risk of that happening to a parents child is vastly vastly greater than any side effects. And that’s the individual aspect but there’s the collective that they’re not merely exposing their own children to risk but that all others. BTW +1 re hygiene etc as a major impact for workers.

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16. makedoanmend - September 5, 2017

“…and a determination to control one’s life despite the reality that that is impossible.”

Ding, ding, ding …. we have a winner…..as the Yanks would say 🙂

I think vaccination, freedom of speech (the right to say something versus incitement to hatred) and several other fundamental issues are becoming “bell weather” markers indicating the tensions, contradictions and divisions in Western society ideologically operating under “the free hand of the market”.

At some level, in my estimation, 40+ yrs of midas-neoliberalsim has skewed our collective understanding of risk and reward, control and fate, and indeed our position as a species in our physical world. The whole alienation thingy.

Might it be that as the working middle classes’ circumstances erode, becoming more untenable and scary at the economic level, that they seek ever more ways to control their lives and those close to them, even when that control might also be detrimental in the long run? Short-termism seems very rife these days.

I can help but feeling that these are issues which the Left needs to address but at the same time there are some issues (such as vaccination) that need to be de-politicised – (show Left power by opposing political power over all issues?).

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WorldbyStorm - September 5, 2017

“At some level, in my estimation, 40+ yrs of midas-neoliberalsim has skewed our collective understanding of risk and reward, control and fate, and indeed our position as a species in our physical world. The whole alienation thingy.”

That to me is it perfectly. There’s an attitude that any problem can be bought out of, a short termism as you say,etc drawn from a transactional approach to the world but one where almost simultaneously there’s less control as you say.

Kind of dovetails with FergusDs point as well. There is no society just the individual and to an extent a boundary around immediate family.

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17. FergusD - September 5, 2017

Maybe it is political? The individual (as some perceive their interest) versus “society” Remember – Thatcher claimed society didn’t exist.

Also, anti-vax seems to part of the paranoid conspiracy theory outlook, that is just as common on the right, maybe more so, than on the left. Andrew Wakefield (anti-mmr vaccine) was lionised by the Daily Mail against the medical establishment, and te NHS. Probaly some of the same people as see the climate change science as a conspiracy by the science establishment (who are all crazy lefties apparently).

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WorldbyStorm - September 5, 2017

Yeah 100% agree, that feeds in too. And the political aspect is very significant

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makedoanmend - September 5, 2017

+1

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18. dublinstreams - September 5, 2017

Sympathy for the kids not respect for the mother concerns with the vacinnes egged on by conmen

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19. dublinstreams - September 5, 2017

Interesting that TV3 news chose the Ava Barry cannabis oil story as their first story, it was entirey from the point of view of the Barrys,
https://www.tv3.ie/news_sub_page.php?locID=1.2.885
the docotor giving her the cannabis oil will be on tomorrow, there might be more investigation and looking into the governement position the next day.

also 3 news goes behind bars to see how disruptive inmates are contained

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20. Liberius - September 6, 2017

Sinn Féin Health Spokesperson Deputy Louise O’Reilly has called for a high profile roll-out of the information campaign to support the HPV Vaccination Programme.

Deputy O’Reilly said:

“It behoves us as politicians to support health campaigns that aim to improve the health and well being of people across the State. The HPV Vaccination Programme and Information Campaign is no different.

“We have a chance to eradicate cervical cancer and the vaccine saves lives by preventing the most common strains of HPV that cause cervical cancer.

“Therefore, it is vital that the correct information is circulated and promoted in order to seize on this chance.

“On issues such this where the medical evidence of the benefits of the vaccine are as apparent as they are overwhelming we need to defer to that medical evidence and the medical professionals.

“One of the most important things we can do is to support the HPV Vaccination Programme and Information Campaign to enable parents to take a fully informed decision concerning HPV vaccination with their GPs.

“Above all, what we do know is that the HPV vaccine works and saves lives and therefore deserves our support.”

That’s much better, it’s just a shame they’ve had to be cajoled over the last few days by the public prominence of the issue into a position they should have had all along.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/46012

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gendjinn - September 7, 2017

You parsed her statements wrong when this kicked off. Storm in a teacup.

SF already had that public position – or are we going to pretend this is the first time SF has ever talked about vaccines?

FFS sophistry games are boring.

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CL - September 8, 2017

“Groups and public figures who peddle anti-vaccine nonsense ultimately condemn young people to preventable deaths..
.
As the HSE escalates its fight-back against antivaccine groups, this has been seen in the screeching U-turns of political opportunists, such as Sinn Féin pivoting from “concern” to all-out endorsement within six days.”-David Robert Grimes
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/anti-hpv-vaccine-myths-have-fatal-consequences-1.3213118

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21. Jim Monaghan - September 8, 2017

I have seen missives by two Lefties spreading this nonesense. On a personal note, I remember my parents relief when the polio jabs came. Oh I had both vaccines. I remember the free x-ray units for detecting TB. I remember a friend in college who was a Polio victim. On a cultural note, many watching an O’Casey play would need to be told what TB or Consumption was and how it was seen as worse than AIDS is now. A death sentence and the survivors considered as people who had it on a hereditary basis.
Oh we paid for it for our daughter.

Oh and society has to have some power to make the “herd” immune, so a certain takeup is required.

Given the evidence of scaremongering by “left” TDs evidenced above, I wonder whether they should be reclassified alongside the Healy-Raes.

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22. GW - September 8, 2017

Lisa O’Carroll, Ruth Taillon from the Centre for Cross Border Studies, and Martina Anderson – SF MEP, give some insight into the impossibility of squaring the circle of keeping the GFA going and Brexit here.

Which was exactly why the DUP was so enthusiastic Brexit – it would finish off the GFA. And why British and Irish Lexiteers are either ignorant, the-worse-the-better cynics or simply don’t give a monkeys about peace in Ireland. Let us generously put it down to ignorance.

A kind of special status for the North seems to be the only workable option, assuming there is any agreement, but the DUP will veto that. Hard to see where you go from there, except into a dangerous and damaging place.

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EWI - September 9, 2017

The glee of the DUP over the Brexit vote was there to see from the beginning. They have the backing of the Tories, but we have the EU – we’ll see in five years which side wins out, I’d say.

Meanwhile, do we declare the GFA dead and buried? If so, does the Anglo-Irish Agreement return?

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23. GW - September 8, 2017

A small and slightly satisfying irony of history – Russ Limbaugh has evacuated his Florida pad.

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24. Michael Carley - September 9, 2017
CL - September 9, 2017

“As for Antifa, it’s a minuscule fringe of the Left, just as its predecessors were. It’s a major gift to the right, including the militant right, who are exuberant,” Chomsky told the Washington Examiner.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/chomsky-antifa-gift-militant-right/

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Alibaba - September 9, 2017

That’s a bit of withering scorn from Chomsky. It comes from his belief that “If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all”. Odd, that statement, considering the defensive use of force is entirely legitimate and in fact necessary when confronted with those who seek to physically attack people of different views.

I dislike his damning of the ‘minuscule fringe of the Left’. Better to ask do they contain progressive elements and how best can they be nurtured and developed towards making progress?

And I would never give the right the consolation of a so-called ‘major gift’.

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dublinstreams - September 9, 2017

was that blonde female Trump supporter going to physically attack people of different views?

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Alibaba - September 9, 2017

I don’t understand why you mention the hair colour or gender of the Trump supporter. But just to be clear, I don’t know the details of the event or the motivations of individuals and I don’t condon attacks on mobilised Trump supporters per se. I merely defend the right to no platform those who organise and advocate attacks on others.

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dublinstreams - September 9, 2017

“No platform” = “defensive use of force” ?

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WorldbyStorm - September 9, 2017

+1 Alibaba.

Certainly no platforming should be directed against overt fascists or sympathisers with fascism. Likewise with antifa actions. Actions against those who are on the right but not the far right is a different matter and as Alibaba says not to be condoned. That said – and the Charlottesville example is a good case, that was led by far-right and neo-fascist forces and those who would be inveigled into their orbit in such instances should obviously be wary. And I’m never hung up on ‘freedom of speech’ as an absolute either.

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CL - September 10, 2017

“Behind the rhetoric of the “alt-right” about white nativism and protecting American traditions, history and Christian values is the lust for violence. Behind the rhetoric of antifa, the Black Bloc and the so-called “alt-left” about capitalism, racism, state repression and corporate power is the same lust for violence.” Chris Hedges
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/antifa-mirrors-alt-right/

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CL - September 10, 2017

“The left is faced with the predicament of a looming fascism and oppression that requires a reassessment of strategy, which embraces all forms of resistance, defensive aggression included.”-Yoav Litwin
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/30/antifas-moral-superiority-and-the-potential-for-left-wing-unity/

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25. yourcousin - September 9, 2017

Don Williams has died.

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26. Gerryboy - September 9, 2017

100 Best American Films. View the video from A to Z and remind yourself of the ones you’ve watched.

http://www.openculture.com/2017/09/the-top-100-american-films-of-all-time-according-to-62-international-film-critics.html

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