British in a united Ireland March 29, 2023
Posted by WorldbyStorm in Uncategorized.trackback
Interesting phrasing in that Der Spiegel interview with Mary Lou McDonald this last week.
Invited to provide reassurance to unionists facing the prospect of a united Ireland, she said there were “no circumstances” in which Sinn Féin would stand for discrimination of unionists along the lines that “Catholics and nationalists suffered in the North”. She added that for many concrete issues, such as healthcare, would be more important when considering support for unification than symbolic issues, such as flag and anthem.
“What we can guarantee, as the basis of a new reunified Ireland, is a society built on full and equal citizenship for everyone,” she said. “And in the case of our unionist friends, they are now British living in a partitioned Ireland. In the future, they would be British in a united Ireland. We have no right to steal people’s identity.”
That’s all well and good. Necessary indeed. But how to give effect to that identity? And what about the more tangible aspects of that identity, in terms of political representation? How does that work?
The Cedar Lounge Revolution 
Good stuff from Mary Lou. But great questions too, WBS. The thing needs fleshing out. Has SF done any work on that does anyone know? Would SF be willing to set the ball rolling by putting out some ideas to unionists about how they’d remain British in a UI. “Here’s some ideas on this, come and talk with us about them.” I know the unionists’ answer would be no thanks to any talks. But it would be a start to actually see some SF ideas on this.
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And just to add. I was having a few pints with my oldest and dearest male friends group recently. These men would be quite mainstream. Dubliners. Not leftists. The North came up and I said “what about the unionists? Would we be willing to have a new anthem or to change the flag to accommodate them?” There was a fairly long silence. Then “F%#k them” was the response of my lifelong best friend.
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First of all – it’s up to Westminster whether Unionists remain British in a Re-United ireland. British citizenship is not within the gift of any Irish govt.
Secondly – as MLMcD said, Irish citizenship in a Re-United Ireland would be full and equal for everyone. Unionists demanding anything more would be demanding special treatment, so citizenship would no longer be full and equal for everyone else.
Thirdly – political representation would be in the Dail. If they wished, Unionists could stand for a party advocating return to British rule and would have their number of TDs proportionate to the votes they receive.
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Good stuff benm. Reads kind of like a fleshing out of my friend’s “F%#k them” .
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Doesn’t sound like that at all.
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I think it does to an extent and also points out the general position of Southern people to their Northern brethren of either disposition. Apart from the idea that a United Ireland is a good thing do we really know what it will entail, two groups of people, one of which is ‘British’ in outlook or loyalty and one ‘Irish’ who have largely been ignored by the South
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I think that just as there is a legitimate and necessary input by Dublin with respect to those who are Irish in NI similarly there would have to be in a UI some sort of similar approach. I’m not sure how that works – I guess there are the strong and weak forms that we’ve discussed before ranging from representation in Westminster (perhaps in the HOL), other links, or in the weakest form some sort of advisory or low level input along the lines of the AIA and the Republic in the 1980s. But that’s I think going to be something that has to be worked into any future scenario.
Paul, that’s a very good point re the fact that a unitary state, or whatever form is adopted, is going to have to incorporate groups plural whose experience diverges widely from that of the south.
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If Unionists getting the right to British citizenship prevents other people having equality, then Nationalists having the right to Irish citizenship at the moment prevents non-Nationalists having equality.
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I’m afraid I haven’t been clear John, despite numbering and separating my points.Let me try again.
1)My first point is that only the British Govt can confer British Citizenship. No Irish govt, past, present or future, was/is/will be able to do that. So in a Re-United Ireland only the British govt can decide whether Unionists will remain British.They can allow Unionists to keep their British citizenship or they can remove it – immediately or after 1, 2 or 3 generations. What they do is entirely up to them
2) My second point was not related to Unionists holding British citizenship. It referred to the principle of “full and equal citizenship for everyone” and the ,special concessions Unionists are reported to require in a Re-United Ireland. We don’t know what they are because they refuse to discuss the issue. However, any special conditions would obviously create inequality wth other citizens. e.g. all Unionists get a new coat every winter, free from the Irish govt. No one else does.
I hope you can see the inequality and problem-creating potential of any special allowances being made for Unionists .
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Sorry, I didn’t appreciate the separation. But presumably there would be an international treaty after a vote for unity, and the UK could in that treaty promise a right to British citizenship for those born in Northern Ireland.
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Hannah Arendt pointed out – I quoted it in another thread but can’t find the quote now – that she had looked in vain for an example of an oppressed people gaining the political upper hand and then treating their erstwhile oppressors better than when the shoe had been on the other foot. Sounds like Joe’s mate is expressing a fairly universal trait.
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White people in Sth Africa? Things are possibly ‘worse’ for them now than they were in the days of apartheid but they haven’t been particularly badly treated by the government since apartheid was overthrown, have they?
(Not wanting to sabotage the thread… just an example that came into my head… and I don’t know enough about Sth Africa now to be sure my thoughts above are correct).
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Arendt was writing in the fifties and specifically about the Middle East
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All I can say is that anyone I know in Ireland’s biggest political party North and South has any form of “revenge” in mind.In fact they have gone overboard with gestures to the “other” community with respect to royalty etc.Martin McGuinness even gave the go ahead to financially bail out the Presbytarian mutual society when other similar institutions would have got much less sympathy.SF mayors of Belfast have even appointed a Baptist minister Karen Sutherman as one of their chaplens.
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The best (in my opinion) but also unlikeliest solution is a Federated States of Britain and Ireland. Do away with the UK and the Republic altogether.
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Yep, lms the masses are crying for this
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*out
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Since when did S.F. recognise the presence of a British population in the north-east? Is this a new policy or did it just completely pass me by?
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That’s a good question as to when but at least five to ten years – not sure it’s policy as such, but definitely a lot of mention of unionism and unionists and their rights within a UI and their identity. Again though, how is that latter to be upheld?
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I mean specifically referring to unionist people as British as opposed to them being confused Irish people, the respect for both traditions thing has always been there eg the flag, Eire Nua – maybe that looked bizarre & even perverse set next to the nature of the conflict, but the conflict would probably have been a lot worse without it, for sure they may have turned it on more over recent years, but they never used language like ‘Irish’ to refer to Nationalist people/’British’ to refer to Unionists – they specifically rejected it.
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Yeah i know what you mean – I do think there been a shift from confused Irish people to British identity – it really is something worth exploring both the tonal and conceptual shifts
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“Since when did S.F. recognise the presence of a British population in the north-east? Is this a new policy or did it just completely pass me by?”
That start you just experienced, terrym, I remember experiencing it at least 20 years ago. Martin McGuinness was being interviewed on the telly and he said something along the lines of “there’s x hundred thousand people in the six counties who are British and I’ve no problem with that”. It definitely hit me as a big change. Up to that I’d always thought that the provisional republican view was that they might think they’re British but in fact they’re Irish, they just don’t realize they are.
But as to what is SF ‘policy’ I don’t know. I’d say there’d be a broad range of views on that within ‘the movement’. But at least at leadership level they seem to be accepting that if someone up north says they’re British then they are.
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The Good Friday Agreement is clear on the right of people in the 6C to be British (or both). For all that the British government have been doing over the years to hollow the agreement out, there’s no reason to believe that they would renege on that commitment.
The question is what rights would go with the passport? Votes for Brits living abroad is a bit of a moveable feast (yes in general elections so long as you haven’t lived abroad for too long, no in referenda – but decided on a case by case basis). Representation without taxation?
What constituencies would Brits in a new Ireland vote in? A new “overseas” constituency? (like the French).
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This is key. How it’s made concrete. Btw hope all ok, nice to see you about.
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I am sure that in a UI the British government would be happy to agree to a right to citizenship (maybe based on being born in the 6Cs with at least one grandparent with citizenship) but I can’t see Westminster wanting them to have votes or to have anything but the weakest in name only role going forward… British politicians and parties would not see there being any threat for the ex Unionist population in Ireland and I suspect would do as much as they could to absolve themselves of any perceived responsibility.
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That’d make say a couple of reps in the House of Lords perfect. Representation without the messy business of having to impinge on British national politics.
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