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This I did not see coming… November 14, 2010

Posted by WorldbyStorm in Irish Politics, The Left.
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Gerry Adams to run in Co. Louth seat for Sinn Féin at next election.

Thanks to roasted snow for the heads up in comments. Quite a clever piece of footwork seems to me.

Well, what do people think? Strong chance of hold? Not so strong? And more broadly for SF in the Republic?

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1. Mark P - November 14, 2010

1) It shows that SF weren’t as confident of holding Louth with their supposed replacement candidate as some were making out.

2) I strongly suspect that Adams will hold the seat.

3) All that will add to the southern Irish political scene is even more of the waffle and empty platitudes in which he specialises.

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2. Dubliner15 - November 14, 2010

I reckon he could win a seat, but shouldn’t SF be moving forward….getting away from those prominent figures associated with the Troubles etc… fresh faces and all that….I don’t see it as a good thing for SF, long-term.

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3. RepublicanSocialist1798 - November 14, 2010

It’ll be an ugly campaign to be honest.

I don’t know why he’s decided to go for it. The party isn’t short of potential candidates in Louth. They’d be safer with Sharkey in my opinion.

Still I wish him the best of luck.

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4. Blissett - November 14, 2010

There is a party vote there which is very solid. Last years locals has SF polling roughly about the same as the general election, 07 8274, 09 8731. (im missing a handful from the new part of the constituency but i wouldnt say its anything massive.

SO its certainly not simply a morgan vote. I also wouldnt read this as judgement on sharkey who was put forward and did well in the Euros. He also polled very strongly in his own ward. His time will come, and apparently he has backed this all the way, along with Morgan and local organisers/leadership.

Added to that the profile adams has, and the huge amount of loose FF republican type votes in North Louth with Kirk not running. Adams could do well out of these. Id be very surprised if he wasnt elected, but its not a cakewalk either. Interesting to see who replaces him in Belfast.

I accept dub15s point about fresh faces, but the fact is there arent any in the target constituencies ready. This could boost sfs profile, make them seem more serious about southern elections, and with a reasonable team in opposition next time, they could make serious progress. Id also be inclined to see this as his swansong. Cannot see him doing 2 terms.

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5. EWI - November 14, 2010

Well, what do people think? Strong chance of hold? Not so strong? And more broadly for SF in the Republic?

The Sindo will be in seventh heaven, Harris, Cusack and Dudley-Edwards especially. Provo-focused articles whenever they pause to draw a breadth from their other obsessions.

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6. sonofstan - November 14, 2010

62 year old first time TD? Hardly the way forward, especially since he will presumably become leader of the party in the Dail, meaning that anyone younger – i.e. Pearse Doherty – will have to wait until the grand old man deems it a fit time to hand over the reins. Plus, as Mark says – sort of – whatever rhetorical gifts he has, he’s not a noted parliamentarian, having spent most of his political career not taking his seat in such institutions: good at declaiming, less good at winning an argument in the company of those not already convinced of his status as greatest living Irishman.

More counter-intuitively, it seems to me that SF need to build a separate identity in the republic if they are to grow: one more distinctly left of centre, and more issue focused. It’s an odd one, but while they have a chance of building a bit in the next election, the minds of the electorate in the republic have never been further from ‘the North’ than at any time since the ’60s. Whether SF like it or not, the GFA has, in the mind of the voters down here, cemented partition for a generation. Which means SF need to recognise that they are effectively two parties (or need to be)- a a small activist, social democratic party here in the republic, part of a weird permanent right of centre coalition in NI.

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Mark P - November 14, 2010

They can’t recognise anything like that though. It would kill them. They operate largely on the self-deception that they are fighting a revolution by unorthodox means.

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sonofstan - November 14, 2010

Real Jekyll and Hyde scenario – if each half recognises the other as the disowned part of itself, it must kill it – and therefore kill itself.

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ejh - November 14, 2010

In which they are not necessarily unique…

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sonofstan - November 14, 2010

‘are further from’ rather ‘never further from’

And just to add; as well as not being a noted parliamentarian, many people in West Belfast would hold that he’s not even all that good at the clientist stuff that’s important for any representative in this country, in either jurisdiction.

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que - November 14, 2010

Look folks on this point that SF sets itself up as a revolutionary party. Every much right to do so as the rest of the other left parties.

Alot of left wing parties operate on the self-deception that they are fighting a revolution by the tried and tested route but it turns out that they are only fooling themselves.

Its a bit much to argue that SF are fooling themselves without recognising the continued lack of impact of the other left wing parties despite their imagined and self styled success.

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7. WorldbyStorm - November 14, 2010

I think those are all fair critiques, the age one perhaps most so though he’d hardly as noted above hang on for two terms, now would he? I’m not sure how SF can be two things in two jurisdictions – although it’s managing okay so far 😉 . But, it certainly is, if they hold the seat, a clever clever move. And I’d kind of like to see Adams in the Dáil. It would be interesting to see whether the grind of it diminished or enhanced him.

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Mark P - November 14, 2010

I’ll have to stop watching current affairs and news programmes entirely, if the risk of catching Adams in full pompous but empty flow is increased.

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WorldbyStorm - November 14, 2010

Great strategist though. And I suspect part of the public persona is intrinsically linked to that.

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Mark P - November 14, 2010

He negotiated a competent surrender, I’ll give him that.

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sonofstan - November 14, 2010

You’ll need to start now. The interview on the News at one plumbed every depth – it’s his ‘duty’ to stand apparently.

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8. DC - November 14, 2010

Its a very “Presidential” move-is it a way of demonstrating Adams potential in a Southern electoral contest? In that context, will merely holding the seat be enough?

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9. Jethro - November 14, 2010

It’s a really dangerous move. Instead of fighting the next election on issues like the economy, they’re going to be fighting it on Liam Adams and Jean McConville. He is no more comfortable with southern issues or economics than he was in the string of disastrous RTE interviews during the 2007 campaign.

They’ll hold the seat, and maybe they were more nervous about holding it than we figured, but Sinn Féin’s big problem is they’ve never understood how electorally unattractive Adams is in the South now. They’re stuck in a loop from 2004 when he was a political celebrity and don’t realise he might be good for rousing the troops, but he won’t win voters.

Still, I’d love to be at the next meeting of Ardee Residents Association or the Drogheda Tidy Towns Committee. Being an absentee MP in West Belfast is one thing. Being a TD for a constituency that expects its TD to be on the ground, which is how Morgan got in, is another.

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10. paul - November 14, 2010

this is a brave move by SF. one things for sure pearse doherty has been given a massive boost and if SF can continue to build they have the possibilty of taking an extra couple of seats in the next election.this will position them well for election after.

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11. sonofstan - November 14, 2010

Lead story on the News now.

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12. roasted snow - November 14, 2010

Apparently he’s resigning the MLA seat but remaining as MP. I think De valera held three elected MP seats in 1918 when you could. Could Adams be the new Dev and is this SF preparing for serious co alition talks with FF after the next election with Adams leading the discussions? I wonder would he seek a mandate on the unity question, meaningful cross border initiatives etc as opposed to local issues? Certainly i’m sure there are some in ‘FF the republican party’ not too happy about this! And if it annoys them that is a good thing. Class issues are of course another matter.

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EWI - November 14, 2010

Certainly i’m sure there are some in ‘FF the republican party’ not too happy about this!

The FF organisation’s second moniker (the Republican Party) has been purely aspirational since the Eighties, if not before that. I don’t see the middle-class types that now personify the party sitting easily with the hoi polloi of SF – although wait ten or fifteen years for the make-up of SF to change (all those college SFers coming on-stream).

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que - November 14, 2010

EWI, There is an impression, whether true or not, that parties like the Socialist Party and SWP/PBPA are composed very much by students.

It does not seem to have impacted them (for better or for worse) so its unlikely to have that much of a chnage on SF.

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EWI - November 14, 2010

@ que

There are better people here than me to respond on the SP and SWP. I know of them from protests/college/union activities, but nowhere else.

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EWI - November 14, 2010

(Sorry, the “them” is the SWP. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a real live SPer in the wild)

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Mark P - November 15, 2010

It is, of course, complete nonsense.

Up until relatively recently the Socialist Party was very nearly a student-free zone. When I joined (as a student in the late 1990s) I was one of about three students in the party nationally. Nowadays the SP does have groups in almost all of the universities, but students are hardly the central demographic.

The SWP used at one point to be a very university focused organisation, but que is actually wrong about them too. They have very little presence on campus these days, having largely refocused their efforts on community stuff. To an extent that’s quite jarring to anyone who knew them 10 or 15 years ago.

More broadly, demographics do matter. Plenty of political organisations are strongly linked to or based in particular social strata or particular subcultures and that does inevitably shape the organisation in some ways.

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13. CL - November 14, 2010

Adams is quitting the MP gig also. He’ll be missed at Westminster. He’ll be the leader of the opposition in the Free State parliament, and as he says himself he does have the solutions to the crisis that the people need.

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14. Local Yokel - November 14, 2010

anything short of a storming victory for Adams would be seen as failure. For him to limp into the last seat would be a setback for him. More than anything else it gives the impression that SF are worried and have to bring their old warhorse down south to hold on in Louth. Let’s hope he learns a bit more about southern politics too or there’s going to be a lot more disastrous interviews like his Prime Time appearance before the 2007 election.

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15. Peggy Olsen - November 14, 2010

Look on the bright side, at least they didn’t decide to parachute in Mary-Lou.

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sonofstan - November 14, 2010

Please, please, Lord, send her to West Belfast as Grizzy’s replacement.

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16. Tomboktu - November 14, 2010

DC: “Its a very “Presidential” move

That thought occurred to me. I also wonder if the gamble is on whether the numbers after the election would see SF in a coalition, and then on Adams being in the cabinet.

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17. que - November 14, 2010

Certainly a big move and who saw that one coming. SF needed to take insurance against becoming the small 4th party again in the next election and this could boost their profile. In 2-4 months there is going to be a very serious change in Irish politics.

FF the party of the Irish working class is about to get a beat down and as a result pro-republican, and working class, and middle class votes will scatter to the winds in this GE.

With that type of change a gamble needed to be taken. I dont think this points up feat about Sharkey retaining. But Sharkey running would not have added to a more hiugh profile SF campaign here and now. While local candidates built up is good it would be to ignore the current dynamic situation.

SF are proving very dynamic and innovative so fair play to them.

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18. shea - November 14, 2010

in past elections it has been pointed out that gerry adams wasn’t even standing and in that context a question mark was placed on the relevence of what he was saying. the whole northern/southern leadership argument. thats gone now and thats a good thing for SF. Even if he dosn’t get elected there will be a media bounce for him and by extention SF which is good for them.

he’s there stongest asset, most recognisable politician on the island. maybe playing it to safe putting him in louth but thats the provo’s. sure theres loads of problems out of it but the south is where the whole stragagy for Sf has been lagging and where the excitment is at now, the norths gone dull. good move by them.

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19. Local Yokel - November 14, 2010

I’m surprised that there has been no comment at Adams’ decision to use the Edentubber Martyrs commemoration as the base from which to launch his bid for the SF nomination for Louth. Is there not a selection process and is he not subverting it at the expense at other hopeful candidates? Not to mention hijacking a commemoration for IRA volunteers killed during the 1956-1962 Border Campaign.

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20. Ramzi Nohra i - November 14, 2010

I had thought Adams a very good political strategist but I am surprised at this. The figure of his brother will be mentioned , as well as every IRa atrocity over the last thirty odd years. The Sunday independent will go to town. And furthermore, I am not sure how good he will be in the cut and thrust of a dail election.

The only bright thing is that the Sunday independent will look like a herd if twats if he wins the seat.

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21. WorldbyStorm - November 14, 2010

Issue is does that affect him locally there and does it have blow back more widely agin SF candidates elsewhere.

I’m a little sceptical that it will have a crushing negative effect, though perhaps some. On the other hand there are so many imponderables at this point. I would guess that SF might be more transfer/1st pref friendly than ever to some former FF voters come what may. Ironically Arthur Morgan may have assisted in that over the past two years more broadly. And Sunday Indo attacks may work, but… may not.

One would presume (hope!) that he’s been brought up to speed a fair old bit since 2007, but he was poor in debate then.

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22. Ramzi Nohra i - November 14, 2010

Yes good points w.

Sunday indo readers, or at least ones accepting of the wisdom of Harris et al are unlikely to be big time SF voters.
Wrt to debates, Adams has his faults but I wouldn’t say he was an idiot. He has to be better briefed than last time, surely? Also aware that imminent re-unification isn’t top of the agenda at the mo.

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WorldbyStorm - November 14, 2010

Don’t get me wrong Ramzi. I agree with you that all the factors you mention will be issues to some degree. But I’m not certain they’ll have the traction that some believe they will, or at least I’m unconvinced that that is self-evidently true now.

I hope you’re right that he is better… he was far from great last time out, even if one factors in a certain bias in the media.

Also aware that imminent re-unification isn’t top of the agenda at the mo.

At this particular point in time and this election it bloody better not be!

😉

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23. Lámh dhearg abú - November 14, 2010

Did’nt see it coming either. There was talk about such a strategic move about ten years ago but it never materialized. The obvious pros and cons which have been articulated above.

However, on balance think its a clever move and in particular in terms of re-affirming the message to the republican base of the all-Ireland tradjectory of the Sinn Féin project.

Also think party is strarting to gets its act together in other areas of work such as articulating a different economic vision as well as the astuteness of stealing a march on the suppossed official opposition in realtion to the DSW court case.

This move, with Adams promising to re-linquish both the MP and MLA seat to take a risk in Louth will re-inforce message that Sinn Féin are once again pushing the boat out. A big risk but possibly a game changer in terms of the dynamics of politics in the 26 and by extension the entire country.

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24. irishelectionliterature - November 14, 2010

Are Sinn Fein trying to find a more meaningful parliamentary role for Adams. He is in the shadows of Martin McGuinness in Stormont, has no role as an MP in the Commons and he has no peace talks to be attending either. His public profile is less and less.
It would hardly be a move to stave off a leadership bid and make him relevant again? Is it in part a reaction to some unrest within the party?

He should coast home but it being a four seater again due to Seamus Kirk will make it harder than it appears.
The Boundary revision added in a lot of Drogheda’s hinterland to the constituency which would not be as strong an area for Sinn Fein as Dundalk and Cooley would be.

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Blissett - November 15, 2010

Yes but the only incumbent not on the ballot paper, Kirk, is in the right part of the county to suit adams. A lot of loose FF republican type votes there, who decide to go for adams give their man is safe.

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25. sonofstan - November 15, 2010

I had a long comment typed out, but you were spared my long-windedness thanks to a dropped connection.

Two basic things: Toireasa Ferris argued after the last Euro election that too much red and not enough green was harming their chances in rural constituencies.

Second thing: sometimes it makes sense to look at who votes for a party rather than what they say as a clue to their real identity – a sort of electoral version of the base/ superstructure model. SF has 4 seats in the Dail – only one of those (Dublin SC) would ever be likely to vote for a left of Labour candidate, and, while two of the others have had Lab TDs in the past, and will again (Kerry North and Louth) the last one, Cavan Monaghan, probably never will. And more: SFs most likely gains next time are in the two Donegals, again, not fertile ground for Labour, never mind the left. All, however, strong FF territories.

Briefly, I reckon SF have decided going for the disaffected urban voter is a lost cause, and that the leftism alienates a much richer stream of potential electoral gain – the disaffected small town and rural FF voter. And, whilst Adams appeal is lost, to a large extent, on the urban voter, and completely on the Dublin media, it still plays very well in the bits of Ireland they condescend to, when not ignoring.

In other words, while their current size in the Dail leads people to think that they wish to be a WP for these times, just as people used to see them as a protest vote in the north, until they blindsided the SDLP, here, they have their sights set, not on building a modest fiefdom on the left, but on taking on FF.

In the light of this, running Adams is not just about Louth. And while the Sindo, and RTE, will have a field day, the voters they are going after are not the kind that take their opinions from either.

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Garibaldy - November 15, 2010

I think there’s a lot in this SoS, especially the point about the seats they hold being more FF seats than anything else. I think though they’d recognise themselves FF is far too ambitious a target for now.

I think Adams will walk this. Be interesting to see who does the actualy constituency work though. I can’t see him sitting in the Dáil at 70. One term only.

I saw Arthur Morgan interviewed on the Politics Show today. His reason for standing down was that he’d always been a reluctant TD, and that he loved business, and wanted to give it a real go while he was still young enough. He talked about Adams providing leadership that was needed in the south. I wonder if he realised how that reflects on himself and his fellow TDs.

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WorldbyStorm - November 15, 2010

Well in fairness Morgan has always been pretty laid back. Some people genuinely don’t enjoy parliamentary politics, they tend to be the sane ones. And I’m a lot less suspicious of a public rep who walks away than one who is wedded to the job come what may.

Another thought that strikes me, if it is accurate that Morgan arrived in PSF in the mid-70s after being with t’other crowd, isn’t that a remarkable testament to the activism of OSF in the early 1970s. Look at the number of TDs who were members/associated with/Eamon Gilmore(!) who went through that particular political school, from Tony Gregory, WP, etc onwards. Perhaps the most effective grounding a prospective candidate could have.

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Mark P - November 15, 2010

John Dwyer, one of the many SF councillors who resigned over the last couple of years, said that Adams had told him “to stop waving the red flag around Wexford”, which would certainly fit with the above.

Dwyer’s remark about the likes of Pearse Doherty being more suited to selling insurance than to radical politics also has a certain resonance.

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Blissett - November 15, 2010

I think that was Adams just being sarky. Dwyer was a great man for rhetoric in fairness, and I think Adams was not necessarily criticising his supposed leftism but just telling him to keep his mouth shut generallly.

Dwyer was a decent worker, but he did have rather a high regard for himself (as i suppose, does adams)

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Mark P - November 15, 2010

That’s a remarkably charitable interpretation of Adams’ words to Dwyer, Blissett. One that directly contradicts the meaning of his words on their face in fact. You have a similarly charitable interpretation of Ferris Jrs words below as well.

Have you got a spin to put on Adams’ business breakfast with the Dublin Chamber of Commerce too? I’m sure that with enough effort you can smooth away all that stuff about the “pragmatic politics” of service charges and privatisation too.

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Blissett - November 15, 2010

I dont think thats quite the point Toireasa was saying though one might conceiveably interpret it that way

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Blissett - November 16, 2010

aisy up now, i wasnt having a go at anyone

Too much red isnt what she was saying by any means, indeed arguably she was saying too much green. The point she was making is that we are communicating things in a poor way and in a way that doesnt connect with people. The actual political content of the article was negligble. It was about communication. (for what its worth i would accept her argument up until a point) but it sure as hell wasnt a left right polemic. Indeed that in itself raises more questions than what she said? Perhaps a better line of criticism might be that it wasnt in fact a left right polemic, which, one might argue, might have been more valuable. Maybe thats a moot point.

as for dwyer, erra maybe im biased because I always considered him a tosspot, but yeah, its probably not the sort of thing the leader or a self described socialist party should be saying. Fair cop. But i dont think that it was the case that dwyer was on the verge of starting the new ross soviet and that adams was standing in his way, it was him telling him to town down the rhetoric. Fair enough probably not well advised. Doesnt make him a class traitor either.

Im sorry mate, but I havent an issue with breakfast with the Dublin Chamber. We are a socialist party, but we arent a marxist party and have never claimed to be. We dont argue for the abolition of private property or of private business. In that context, I cant see how thats a problem.

as for the latter examples, i have concerns with some of how we have done our business in stormont, but while our role in it has been far from flawless in terms of class issues there, I have found its been greatly exaggerated for (understandable) political purposes by SP SWP etc

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

I think that you are misunderstanding the issue with the business breakfast. It wasn’t so much that he had his little meeting with the assembled capitalist class of Dublin, but what he said when he was there.

He said that SF were against privatisation and against the bin tax but said that in the end were about “pragmatic politics” and gave voting in the bin tax in Sligo and Northern PFI schemes as examples of their willingness to play ball.

As for exaggeration, Sligo SF voted for the bin tax. Then An Phoblacht defended the decision. Then they voted to increase the bin tax. Then Adams used the affair to illustrate SF’s “pragmatic politics”. Not a word of exaggeration.

Here’s Martin McGuinness on some of the privatisation schemes SF have implemented in the North:

“PFI contracts highlights the opportunities for partnership with the private sector in the pursuit of good value for money and the effective use of resources to meet the needs of schools.”

“It is now clear that PFI does offer real potential for value for money solutions to the pressing capital investment needs of our schools generally. My Department will, over the coming months, be consulting with schools authorities and other interested bodies, on its plans for the extended future use of PFI in conjunction with conventional capital new starts”.

“My Department has proved that PPP is a viable method of procuring facilities for young people – just last month the last of four pathfinder projects opened its doors to pupils. My Department will continue to work with school authorities to ensure that the best use can be made of PPP in tackling the backlog in the schools estate. Building on last year’s PPP announcement, I have decided to include two PPP clusters in this year’s capital programme. This will be subject to a value for money deal being secured with the private sector.”

“This is a challenging but exciting project, which will for the first time bring together controlled and integrated school sectors working together within PPP to procure new facilities without in any way compromising the ethos or management of the individual schools and I would hope to pursue this approach further in the future.”

“These two clusters represent new approaches to using PPP and I believe that the Department and the school authorities should continue to explore the opportunities provided by PPP.”

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26. i4ni - November 15, 2010

Toireasa Ferris argued after the last Euro election that too much red and not enough green was harming their chances in rural constituencies. @4:20 he tip toes the urban/ rural green/red lines well sounding left while not frightening off a heard of FF farmboys away

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27. Jock McPeake - November 15, 2010

A dirty election in store. That photo of Liam and big Gerry shaking hands with local kids in Dundalk, mid 1990s- a cert for his rivals to run with. plus the ‘I was never in the army’ – do you think this will get a run out?
A big ego is to blame for this- should have stopped when he got to the top- MP-MLA-president for life etc
p.s. Arthur was pissed off with being landed with the Liam business

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28. John O'Neill - November 15, 2010

Do people think the SF strategy is to try and mimic old Fianna Fail? Left of centre, populist etc. This might be a better strategy in Ireland if you want top win seats than having a socialist programme.

I can remember in the 1970’s and 80’s socialists tended to vote for FF if it was a straight choice between them and FG as anything was considered better than the ‘blueshirts’. You used to get a big proportion of FF supporters saying FF are good for the building industry etc. This budget will certainly wipe that out forever and maybe SF see a gap they can fill but, unfortunately, I can’t see any real value to voting SF when there is a bigger left of centre party that is currently on the crest of the wave.

The decision could also have been based on necessity. SF could end up with fewer seats because of the Labour vote and running a household name should be a shoe in.

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Garibaldy - November 15, 2010

I think you’re right John about the possibility that Labour will do so well that it will squeeze the parties to the left of it. I’m not sure people have given that enough consideration.

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Mark P - November 15, 2010

In fairness, the Socialist Party have been saying it for quite a while – mostly in response to over excitable types who assume that a big breakthrough is on the cards for the socialist left.

Labour riding very high in the polls is not good news for actually left wing parties. Or even for SF.

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29. sonofstan - November 15, 2010

Do people think the SF strategy is to try and mimic old Fianna Fail? Left of centre, populist etc.

Yes. More or less what I was trying to say above.

Just to add to my quasi- materialist electoral analysis – look at the voters, not the rhetoric – it is notable that if you look at the spread of Westminster seats held by nationalists in NI, the same rough pattern emerges: 4 out of 5 seats that SF hold are largely rural, whereas, despite the precipitous decline of the SDLP, they still hold 2 out of 3 Urban seats held by nationalists. Now I know there are all sorts of demographic peculiarities and so on, but still, just as SF here do well in areas where FF do well, in the North most of their seats are in the areas where the old Nationalist party did well, whereas the SDLP hold two seats that, in a ‘normal’ democracy, you would expect to be left- leaning (which is not to claim there is more than a vestige of ‘social democratic’ left in them). West Belfast is the sole exception.

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Mark P - November 15, 2010

The fact that SF are a populist party rather than a party of the left is quite an important one to grasp.

Populist parties, by their very nature can adopt more left or more right policies depending on what way the wind is blowing. Ireland has a long tradition of that sort of thing, from Fianna Fail through Clann na Poblachta and on to the Provos.

The interesting thing about the Provos as a populist party is that they embody the contradiction of populism spatially as well as temporally. They aren’t just swinging left and right over the years, but trying to be different things in different places. A right wing governing party doling out austerity in the North, an anti-establishment left tinged party on a council estate in the urban south, a more conservative nationalist party in rural parts of the South, a Catholic communal party across most communities in the North, a party of “pragmatic politics” when having a business breakfast with the assembled capitalist class of Dublin, radical anti-capitalists at the European Social Forum…

Their antics over the Bush visit encapsulates much of their essence – simultaneously inside shaking hands with Bush and outside posing as opponents of his vist at the protests.

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Tim Johnston - November 15, 2010

That perfectly sums up my opinion of SF.

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i4ni - November 15, 2010

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30. Jim Monaghan - November 15, 2010

Mark
Surely your definition of populism could be used for reformist parties of the working class as well such as the Labour Party, various CPs across Europe as well.As for the mantra of a formal link with teh trade unions helping keep parties on the straight and narrow, in Ireland the ICTU could be siad to be worse than Labour.
As for the different places, different things. Well Labour accomodated Kemmy and Coughlan or even Thornley and Cruis O’Brien.
Don’t doubt that SF, in leaving the door open to coalition, have drifted to say the least, I jusat doubt the usefulness of your definition.

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Mark P - November 15, 2010

Jim,

I didn’t actually offer a definition of populism. Merely an illustration of some of the forms Sinn Fein’s populism takes. I quite agree that social democratic parties tend towards inconsistency too.

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31. Jolly Red Giant - November 15, 2010

Interesting this evening on RTE, Eamon Mallie claimed that SF’s strategy before the last election was to get enough seats to get into government with FF and then use that for an Adams push for the presidency. He said that he had definite inside knowledge for this.

However, the general election failure left the SF leadership in disarray and Adams as a fifth wheel with no role and no purpose. Mallie claimed that he is bored and wanted something to do.

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Blissett - November 15, 2010

a Nonsense. It would be an incredibly stupid move which would finish the project in the south and would split the movement, or even be opposed by the majority of it, and destroy the partys credibility.

And even in the case that none of the above were true, there isnt a snowballs chance in hell that that electoral maths would add up. FG and Lab will have an absolutely unassailable majority.

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32. sonofstan - November 15, 2010
WorldbyStorm - November 15, 2010

Isn’t he only standing down from the Assembly?

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sonofstan - November 15, 2010

No he says he’ll vacate the Westminster seat as soon as an election is called here.

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HAL - November 15, 2010

Crick looses all credability with that rubbish.

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33. usher - November 16, 2010

I can’t believe that Gerry Adams will have to swear an oath to the Queen and become a Steward of the Chiltern Hundreds in order to resign from the House of Commons. Strange but true for an absentionist MP!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resignation_from_the_British_House_of_Commons

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34. john dole - November 16, 2010

The arrival of Adams into electoral politics in the South poses an interesting quandary for the Socialist Party.

Sinn Fein’s economic analysis is decidedly left-wing, but not battleship potempkin left-wing. And because of that, the Socialist Party are going to have to critique Sinn Fein’s economic policy, But, in order to launch a critique which will make sense to people, they are going to have to provide a viable alternative plan – alternative, that is, not only to Fine Gael, Labour, Greens and Fianna Fail, but also to that of Sinn Fein.

So. An alternative to the deflationary policies of the right, and the investment/stimulus policies of Sinn Fein.

Thing is, the foundation on which the socialist Party’s grasp of economic matters is built is about as shaky as the ghost estates it criticises. They don’t have the economic background to launch anything more than clichés on taxation and nationalisation.

This is going to be so funny. The Socialist Party is the Elizabeth Bennet of Irish politics, a mother in the kitchen and a virgin on the bedroom, holding out for the perfect socialist moment, while the slutty Sinn Feiners seduce the Darcys.

Now, the socialist party will tell you in private that they are not that bothered with electoral politics – they are a revolutionary vanguard after all – but if a revolutionary moment should occur in the next few years, the socialist party have to work out a way of seizing control of that moment from Sinn Fein, who will undoubtedly seek to use it to their advantage as well.

The move by Adams is inspired. The virgins are going to need more than love letters and poetry in order to stay relevant.

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neilcaff - November 16, 2010

I think you need to get yourself a girlfriend, your obsession with virgins and Jane Austin is somewhat unhealthy.

People have been writing the obituaries of Militant/SP since the 1970’s. It tends to be the obit writers who lose their relevance, not the SP.

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Dr. X - November 16, 2010

If we had girlfriends, would we be posting on this place?

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neilcaff - November 16, 2010

🙂

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35. Eamonn Grimes - November 16, 2010

To continue on this theme slighty, the SP are also virgins in that they do not have a single death to account for over a 40 year period. Gerry, however, while he has many notable attributes, has a bit of a blind spot regarding his leadership of an army that waged a war on behalf of the Irish people. Given that he was showing all signs of being ready to retire from politics six months ago, this move is a bit strange. Andf why not run him in Dublin Central if your trying to make an impact on southern politics? It’s the capital, and it’s aplace where for a decade we were assured that SF were a ‘shoo-in’. But the St. Finbarr’s man was retired (couldn’t upset the tabloids, or the glossies with that Cabra business) and Mary Lou was given a run-out. Why not Gerry A?

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36. Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

“It tends to be the obit writers who lose their relevance, not the SP”

Are you trying to say that in the 1970s Militant in Ireland had a relevance to the dynamics of the island?

The delusion continues!

There is something incredibly nerdy about the socialist Party. Obsessive to the point of autistic, and insulated from reality by the wall of texts they produce for themselves, and read only by themselves.

My favourite is the ‘revolutionary’ aspect of the Socialist Party. When asked if they have any economic plans – detailed plans to help the copuntry through this crisis – they respond that it is not their job to prop up capitalism.

Fair enough. They are socialist revolutionaries after all.

Yet, where is the evidence that they take the idea of revolution seriously? Where is the weapons and explosives training?

Every single state, without exception, uses violence to protect itself. When attacked it will respond with violence.

The Socialist Party, with no economic plans because it refuses to prop up Capitalism, is planning for a revolutionary overthrow of Capitalism in Ireland that will somehow avoid violence.

It expects the State to just shrug its shoulders and go ‘oh fair enough Joe, here are the keys.’

On the economic front it has no plans, and on the revolutionary front it doesn’t even know how to load a gun. And yet they call themselves revolutionaries!

So, Gerry Adams knows how to kill people. My question for my revolutionary socialist friends is, how come you don’t? What are you going to do when the revolution comes? Are you going to megaphone your enemies to death?

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

Jesus, we have a live one here. Why is he using two different aliases though?

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37. neilcaff - November 16, 2010

Bloody hell is it a full moon outside? First it’s virgin’s now nihilistic odes to violence!
I hope for Sinn Fein’s sake you have nothing to do with their election posters. I can see it now: ‘Vote for our guy, he knows how to kill people!’

However I very much doubt you are a member of SF or have even done anything more political than the occasional deluded rant at the bar when you’ve had one too many Bass shandy’s.

I have discussed in previous posts how the CWI’s South African sister party participated and in some cases led, armed neighbourhood defense committees in the early 90’s. You’re fellow Republican fantasists sneered at this in your usual elitist fashion so I will not waste my time explaining it to you. Why don’t you go read one of our nerdy documents instead?

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38. Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

“‘Vote for our guy, he knows how to kill people!”

Well, change it a little, to, lat’s say..

“‘Vote for our guy, he knows how to kill people!”

and you’ve pretty much got what Joe Higgins says in Europe when he’s voting alongside Sinn Fein.

The Socialist Party: diehard revolutionaries: diehard pacifist revolutionaries. Modern-day sheehy Skeffingtons.

It is so hypocritical. Hiding behind the bloodied hands of your Spanish and South African comrades. Championing violence, as long as somebody else does the killing.

The Socialist Party: too revolutionary to be social democrats, but too social democratic to be revolutionary.

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

Is anyone else slightly disturbed at the sight of a sexually frustrated Provo, grinding his groin against the couch at the thought of virgins, Jane Austen and blood?

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

“virgins, Jane Austen and blood?”

I have to be honest.

if it was a porno, I’d rent it.

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Pope Epopt - November 16, 2010

Disturbing? No, life’s rich tapestry, and all that, and I’m all for people letting their ids hang out.

I think some of this thread has reached the level of inspired, and slightly mad, prose-poetry. I for one am very happy that Jane Austen and quivering virgins figures so highly in SF supporters’ imaginations. Next time I see a party in jodpurs and flouncy dresses I’ll know it’s my local SF Cumman, getting hot and sweaty…

I know the events in Louth are hugely significant, and on a historical scale dwarfs anything that might be happening in Brussels, but…

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39. Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

Oh, and I wouldn’t grind my crotch against the couch while watching it. I would simply use my hand and masturbate.

The fact that surreptitious rubbing of one’s crotch is the way you would masturbate doesn’t surprise me Mark. The Socialist Party can’t just come out and do something. It always has to hide its intentions.

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

I think we’ve heard quite enough about both your masturbation fantasies and your masturbation technique at this point, Shane.

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

Oh! Touched a raw nerve (ahem), have we?

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Budapestkick - November 16, 2010

Indeed. I hope for SF’s sake that John / Shane isn’t a member and merely a lonely fantasist. As for the SP hiding its intentions, it’s a bit of nonsense thats come up before and has been dealt with adequately.

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

“I hope for SF’s sake that John / Shane isn’t a member and merely a lonely fantasist”

so. Gerry Adams and his IRA links is one thing, but a Shinner ordering a copy of “Pride and Penetration” is a step too far?

Hehe. you’ve got to love the Trots.

Oh, and in case you didn’t notice, the wanking fantasies were brought up by your party colleague, Mark P.

And not for the first time either.

I seem to recall another fantasy he had about public masturbation, a few weeks back if I am not mistaken.

Mark seems to have a thing about dreaming up scenarios where men wank themselves off in from of him – be it on streets or in sitting rooms with sofas.

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Budapestkick - November 16, 2010

Shane / various aliases, if this site had moderation turned on you’d be thrown off long ago. Stop wasting everyone’s time and fuck off.

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

so Mark P can call me a wanker, but when I return the favour it’s a “moderation” issue?

how revolutionary.

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Pope Epopt - November 16, 2010

Excellent, sex tips! Can you expand, Shane, if you will excuse the expression?

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

Huh? you want lessons in masturbating to pornography? Well, ok. I would have thought a simple google search would sort you out, but usually I use my right hand to masturbate and my left for the mouse.

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40. Tremulous D'Arcy Gal - November 16, 2010

Shane. Contact me. Now.

You bad boy!

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

“Shane. Contact me. Now.”

How? you didn’t leave any contact information.

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41. Joe - November 16, 2010

Back on topic. I’m really intrigued by this development. Here’s my tuppence worth of idle speculation:
1. He will win the seat. There is an SF seat there anyway so he has to win it.
2. I’d guess there are a lot of younger (50 and under?) SF people who are a little bit conflicted by this development. This is Adams saying I haven’t gone away, you know. It’s President for Life stuff. Surely the way for SF to go should have been to let the best local they could get to run for the party? That would be forward-thinking. That would be developing the party. But instead it’s back to the future with the ageless Gerry. This has to drain the enthusiasm of the next generation in SF – the message is that they can’t be trusted, that Adams and his generation are going to keep their tight control over the party. Which, in the long run, will strangle the party and stunt its growth.
I’d see it as similar to what happened, to some extent, with the WP, with the likes of Sean Garland refusing to let go of power in the party.
3. That bit about SF’s supposed plan before the last Southern election – to increase their number of TDs in preparation for a Gerry Adams tilt at the Presidency. Say he won … we’d have the de facto chief of PIRA as the de jure Chief of Óglaigh na hÉireann (aka the Defence Forces). Constitutional crisis or wha?

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

Well exactly.

It’s quite the vote of confidence in both their previously planned Louth candidate, Sharkey, and the mumbling sorts and insurance salesmen they expect to have elected to the Dail elsewhere.

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42. John O'Neill - November 16, 2010

“….use my right hand to masturbate and my left for the mouse.” Catchy?

I think the ballot box in one hand and the armalite in the other sounds better for the elections

And women say men can’t multi task

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

John, using a mouse while masturbating is NOT multi-tasking.

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43. Sticky Wicket - November 16, 2010

Title of the thread takes on a whole new meaning with Shane’s ramblings….

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

As does your name, Sticky Wicket.

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

And I cannot believe you didn’t see that one coming.

sticky wicket comments on masturbation.

I mean, it writes itself…

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44. Jim Monaghan - November 16, 2010

“we’d have the de facto chief of PIRA as the de jure Chief of Óglaigh na hÉireann (aka the Defence Forces). ”
Frank Aiken former chief of staff became Defence minister in “charge”.
On a local candidate being necessarily better, surely this could be seen as a change from localist, kitchen sink type stuff.
I think the brand Gerry is damaged anyway, a sort of Ted Kennedy and bridges sort of thing. FF will milk it dry.
Better they focus on their alternative economic plan which is a real alternative which puts the LP to shame, I was going to add the ICTU but they are basically in coalition already.
To convince me they need an explicit committment of no to coalition with either FF or FG.

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45. neilcaff - November 16, 2010

“To convince me they need an explicit committment of no to coalition with either FF or FG.”

You’ll be a long time waiting for that I think. Without that commitment any alternative economic plan SF might come up with is pure waffle. Any economic plan that involves a government with FF, FG or Labour in it is not going to be written by SF or anyone in Ireland for that matter. It’ll be written in Brussels, Berlin and Washington D.C. with a little help from the University of Chicago.

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

Well you can’t blame Sinn Fein for that Neil. Sinn Fein have spent the past two years trying to convince Labour to join in an electoral pact – only for Labour to run into the arms of Fine Gael.

similarly, the Socialist Party rushes to condemn Sinn Fein as murderers at almost every opportunity – the ‘almost’ being of course Joe Higgins’ Janus face in Europe whwre he’ll work with Sinn Fein no probs.

So. Socialist party won’t have anything to so with Sinn Fein. Nor will Labour.

Until the Left cops on to itself and starts forming electoral pacts, we will continue to have right-wing governments propped up by left-wing parties, with further left-wing parties at the margins throwing morality hissy-fits or calling those who criticise them wankers.

The Irish Socialist Party are true internationalists alright – fighting for socialism in Europe and South Africa, but taking an ‘ourselves alone’ approach when it comes to this island.

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

Why would you want any kind of alliance with the Socialist Party, Shane, given your clearly expressed views on this thread?

(I can’t help but suspect that for entirely apolitical reasons, few people reading this thread would be inclined to shake hands with you over any kind of agreement).

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

Huh? I’m not a member of Sinn Fein, so don’t worry about shaking hands there Mark.

now, the first engagement you made with me Mark was to allude to me being a wanker. That was it. That was your opening line. now, you’re assuming that I’m a member of Sinn Fein because only a sinn fein member could look at Adams and his IRA background and not care. Well, here’s the news Mark. We are getting our arses kicked from one side of the street to the other. We’re borrowing from friends one week who then borrow off us the next. Christmas is coming up and I am glad my 14-month-old son is too young to be aware of Christmas. I can give him f**king wrapping paper and he’s going to be happy. do you have a son? Do you understand what that feels like?

If Gerry Adams is in the dail fighting for us, that’s all I care about. If there are seven-plus sinn Feiners there doing the same, that’s all I care about. And if Clare Daly, Mick Barry and Joe Higgins are there, even better.

Gerry Adams was in the IRA. Who the fuck cares.

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

“I’m not a member of Sinn Fein”

I’m sure they’re mourning the loss.

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

haha! That’s the best answer you can come up with?

you have no life experience, have you? You’ve nothing. No children. No actual knowledge of the pressures we are facing. you’re a simple socialist claw, scuttling across the floors of cyber seas.

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Budapestkick - November 16, 2010

Shane, since you don’t know anything about Mark P, accusing him or anyone else of not having life experience is somewhat ridiculous.

Your attitude from the get-go has been somewhat bizarre. If, as you say ‘If Gerry Adams is in the dail fighting for us, that’s all I care about. If there are seven-plus sinn Feiners there doing the same, that’s all I care about. And if Clare Daly, Mick Barry and Joe Higgins are there, even better.’ then why have you chosen such a confrontational, even childish attitude?

‘Gerry Adams was in the IRA. Who the fuck cares.’

Well nobody. Same way not many people care about De Rossa being in the IRA or Bernard Lynch’s past. The only issue is why he continues to hide it when it has long been an open secret.

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

Excuse me?

Mark P’s first comment to me was to have me rubbing myself against a chair while dreaming of virgins. do you think that is a normal way to open a conversation?

now, with virgins and Jane Austen I was making some creative allusions, but they were allusions relating to the socialist Party, NOT individuals.

Mark P came on and made it about me.

As did you, budapestick.

It was Mark P who lowered the conversation to public masturbation – and not for the first time I hasten to add.

And I’m the one who is childish?

My god, you’ve some neck there beatyourstick!

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Sarah Williams - November 16, 2010

It is true. Mark P’s contributions on this site fall within internet bullying. His use of sexual imagery as a weapon is disgusting.

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Budapestkick - November 16, 2010

Shane, I tried to be reasonable with you but it would appear you’re utterly incapable of doing anything besides talking inccessantly about masturbation and making uninformed, nonsensical accusations.

Also, Sarah Williams? It’s funny Shane how these new contributors just flash into existence to agree with you. A more cynical man than I would assume you were just creating alts to lend some credence to the bile flowing forth from keyboard.

Mark P is a valued contributor here. You are not. In fact you are quite possibly the most pathetic individual I’ve ever came across. Make some actual points and seek help regarding your masturbation obsession.

P.S: Beatyourstick = Worst pun I’ve ever seen.

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Sarah Williams - November 16, 2010

I am a real person you idiot.

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Budapestkick - November 16, 2010

If you’ll excuse me, I have no intention of having a conversation with a figment of Shane’s imagination. I have better things to do.

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

“Beatyourstick = Worst pun I’ve ever seen”

oh come on, you’re embarrassing me, I’m sure you’re seen worse.

Have you never read your own newspaper?

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Sarah Williams - November 16, 2010

you are pathetic.

Is there a moderator around who can clear this up?

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A Regular Poster Using a Throwaway Pseudonym - November 16, 2010

“now, with virgins and Jane Austen I was making some creative allusions, but they were allusions relating to the socialist Party, NOT individuals

I think you’ll find, Shane, that a certain “John Dole” made the comment with the creepy allusions to Austen, “slutty” women and virgins.

Wait, you mean you’ve been using multiple sockpuppet pseudonym’s in this discussion? Surely not? You’d never stoop to that sort of dishonesty, would you?

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Shane Cooper - November 17, 2010

“You’d never stoop to that sort of dishonesty, would you?”

My God. do you actually believe that nobody else here uses alternative names? Are you telling me that you belive that beatyourstick and Mark P are actually different people?

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Budapestkick - November 17, 2010

Jesus christ.

Shane, you’re just digging yourself in deeper here. Your sockpuppetting has been exposed and now you’re reduced to accussing others of it even though WBS has said below that you’re the only one doing it.

‘How many times now has Mark P tried to shut down a comentator by talking about their sexual preferences? Three, four, ten?’

Well, never actually. Find me a quote where he has.

Once again, you are accusing Mark of bringing up masturbation etc. when the tone was clearly lowered and set by your comment (under yet another alias)

‘This is going to be so funny. The Socialist Party is the Elizabeth Bennet of Irish politics, a mother in the kitchen and a virgin on the bedroom, holding out for the perfect socialist moment, while the slutty Sinn Feiners seduce the Darcys.’

You are the only one using aliases. You are the only one yammering about sluts and virgins and you are a pox on this site. Grow up or go away.

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Shane Cooper - November 17, 2010

beatyourstick, Mark P last month, in reply to leftatthecross:

“It’s like being lecture on decorum by a man who is masturbating on the street.”

No doubt about Mark P, he likes to argue the toss, that’s for sure.

and my comments were in relation to a political party, NOT individuals.

Mark P made it personal, as he always does.

and I responded in kind.

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LeftAtTheCross - November 17, 2010

Budapestkick,

Here’s a quote directed at myself from last month:

“Mark P – October 13, 2010

It’s like being lecture on decorum by a man who is masturbating on the street.”

https://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/why-austerity-isnt-common-sense-but-is-class-war/

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Shane Cooper - November 17, 2010

beatyourstick writes:

“you’re the only one using alises”

haha! Jesus Christ.

Tell me, is beatyourstick your christian name?

“you’re the only one using aliese”

haha!

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Budapestkick - November 17, 2010

Sockpuppeting then, Sarah Williams / John Dole / Shane Cooper. It’s a sad situation when you’re so pathetic as to feel the need to create a billion alts to agree with you. LATC, have you not been reading this thread? What are you doing defending this guy?

Anyway, Shane of the many names ruined this thread a long time ago and I think it’s best to leve it here with Shane thoroughly exposed and humiliated while the grown-ups talk sensibly elsewhere.

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LeftAtTheCross - November 17, 2010

LATC, have you not been reading this thread? What are you doing defending this guy?

Budapestkick,

I’m not defending what Shane is saying, I’m defending his right to say it without being personally attacked by Mark P or anyone else.

Mark P is simply a bully, that’s the long and short of it.

Neither you nor the SP should be defending his behaviour here in CLR, he does you no favours in terms of PR for your party.

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Mark P - November 17, 2010

LATC:

It’s rather convenient that you’ve left out the context of that admittedly snide remark.

As you know it came in response to a lengthy diatribe from you, which was entirely unprovoked and in which you described me as “a nut”, a hate-filled “bigot” and so on and offered an unasked for and frankly idiotic attempt at amateur psychoanalysis. There’s something faintly ludicrous about your wounded innocent act.

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LeftAtTheCross - November 17, 2010

Bargepole…

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Budapestkick - November 17, 2010

Bargepole? I just looked at the thread LATC. He was responding to a far more insulting post from you.

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LeftAtTheCross - November 17, 2010

Budapestkick,

Yes, I had a go at Mark P that day.

Presumably you ynow the guy in real life, outside of this on-line world, via the SP?

Tell me you think he’s a nice guy, someone well balanced and with a healthy worldview, someone with some love in him for humanity rather than the hate-filled musings we see here on CLR.

I’ve never met him, and of all the contributors here he’s the only one I wouldn’t want to. He’s an asshole. A bully. A knowledgeable and politicised person yes, makes many useful contributions here to discussions yes. A child who failed to mature. Not someone who I would want the future of myself, my kids, my society, to be in the least bit influenced by his warped hate-filled outlook.

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Mark P - November 17, 2010

And yet after another malevolently stupid diatribe like that, LATC will continue to nurse his martyr complex because I said something rude to him once while under some fairly strong provocation.

Hypocrisy, thy name is…

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LeftAtTheCross - November 17, 2010

Get a life for yourself Mark, for all our sakes.

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Mark P - November 17, 2010

“Get a life” says the man posting on the internet political blog to the other man posting on the internet political blog.

Not big on irony in your house, I see.

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LeftAtTheCross - November 17, 2010

Do you have a life Mark, outside the SP I mean? A partner, kids, family, close friends, people you love and who love you? From your writings you come across as a hateful person. Not amateur psychoanalysis, just observation.

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Mark P - November 17, 2010

No LATC, I don’t. In fact I’m a borderline sociopath who passes his time baiting self-regarding waffling fools on the internet.

We all have to have hobbies after all.

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Budapestkick - November 17, 2010

LATC, I don’t think I’ve met Mark P in real life yet though I have no reason to believe he is anything other than a nice person with the occasional tendency to be a bit smug or confrontational (which could describe almost anyone).

Frankly I am shocked by your comments that:

‘He’s an asshole. A bully. A knowledgeable and politicised person yes, makes many useful contributions here to discussions yes. A child who failed to mature. Not someone who I would want the future of myself, my kids, my society, to be in the least bit influenced by his warped hate-filled outlook.’

I’m somewhat confused here. You complain that he is an asshole and a bully but from what I’ve seen your behaviour towards him fits that description far better. I mean, even there you just suggested he was ‘warped’ and ‘hate-filled’ and had yet to mature. I’m just amazed that insults like that can be thrown around so lightly by anyone. I certainly couldn’t imagine you doing that in real life.

You can’t simultaneously accuse Mark P of being a bully while engaging in the sort of behaviour above. Your main complaint so far is that he responded snidely to another stream of insults from you. Looking at some of these comments you seem to have an almost personal grudge against Mark P for reasons that are unclear to me. You can’t insult other contributors and then complain that they are being insulting.

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LeftAtTheCross - November 17, 2010

Budapestkick,

I’m not an antagonistic person usually.

You make some valid criticisms of my contribution to this dialog, yes.

I hope you can be equally critical of your fellow SP member.

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46. Jim Monaghan - November 16, 2010

“Until the Left cops on to itself and starts forming electoral pacts, ”
If you clarified and SF clarified that this is with other left parties and not FF or Fg. I leave out the Progressive Ds who are dead anyway.
The question is the policies that will be carried out not the policies that might get you into power.
I regret to say the next gov. will have to make cuts, unless we breakj with capitalism. But the question is what cuts. I feel that the rich should pay for their crisis. A coalitiuon with FF or FG would be about the poor and middling paying

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47. Eamonn Grimes - November 16, 2010

I don’t care that Gerry was in the IRA. What I care about is that he won’t say he was. As a former Provo says, ‘we’re all known as murderers while he pretends he was fucking hugging trees.’

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Budapestkick - November 16, 2010

My point exactly. Everyone knows so who cares if he comes out and says it.

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Shane Cooper - November 16, 2010

Eamonn, when I say I don’t care what I mean is the issues facing this country today are so huge – national default and all that – that this tabloid obsession with membership is not going to change my mind regarding voting Sinn Fein next tie around – previously I would have voted Socialist Party, but I can’t see them geing much of a force in the next Dail so I’m going with a party which might be able to make a difference.

My Socialist Party vote was a bit of an indulgence when times were ok, but now that times are bad, I want people who will fight my corner, and in numbers.

so, when I say I don’t care, it’s really because of the current economic crisis. It really is a game-changer for me.

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Jolly Red Giant - November 16, 2010

Out of interest Shane – which constituency do you live in?

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48. Donagh - November 16, 2010

I regret to say the next gov. will have to make cuts, unless we breakj with capitalism. But the question is what cuts.

Well, actu……oh never mind.

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49. irishelectionliterature - November 16, 2010

we’re off …. just got an invite to join the “Don’t let Gerry Adams become a TD” Facebook group.

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

I don’t think that fulminating from the usual suspects will do SF’s chances much harm. But there certainly will be a lot of fulminating. Garibaldy is going to have his hands full on Sunday.

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RepublicanSocialist1798 - November 16, 2010

Three members so far, one of whom is a FF living in Desgrange South County Dublin, the other a Blueshirt from South County Dublin, neither of whom live in the constituency of Louth.

Go figure.

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Budapestkick - November 16, 2010

I’m setting up a group called ‘Largely indifferent to Gerry Adams being in the Dáil’

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RepublicanSocialist1798 - November 16, 2010

I’d say that’d get the most members hands down.

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Budapestkick - November 16, 2010

In an ideal world yes, but the Sindo will start whipping up the usual anti-republican hysteria from Sunday onwards with this probably being the focal point until the election. It won’t made a big difference in the long run but they will be trying to mobilise the anti-SF crowd.

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

True, but I genuinely think that a Sindo campaign will have the effect of hardening Adams vote rather than crushing it.

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Budapestkick - November 16, 2010

Agreed. Actually in many ways this might do SF good in terms of the publicity it will create, inadvertently assisted by the Sindo

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irishelectionliterature - November 16, 2010

It might harden the vote in Louth, but soften it elsewhere.

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WorldbyStorm - November 16, 2010

Not sure about that.

The conflict in the North is now becoming historically remote. If one was 19 in 1994 one would be 35 today. A 25 year old would have been 10 or so. In the intervening 16 years Adams et al have had, broadly speaking, a much better press than they did prior to that (exceptions excepted).

Hard to see that having a massively negative effect on those who voted SF in the past, and I suspect that there’s a bit of a halo effect on SF’s Dáil leftism over the past two years or so where some who’d once have been viscerally antagonistic might just offer a lower preference. The Phoenix’s latest issue had something about this as well in relation to how SF had made a lot of the running recently in terms of economic policy as against the Labour Party.

All that said I still think SF will be very lucky to come out with more than five or six TDs.

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Mark P - November 16, 2010

Well yes, but given that Phoenix’s coverage of SF, Labour and the socialist left is extremely heavily biased in favour of SF, you have to take its coverage of SF with even more of a pinch of salt than its coverage of other matters.

I do not believe that there is a vote migration from Labour to SF of any great significance.

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WorldbyStorm - November 17, 2010

Never said there was, but the pointbis whether in 2010/2011 SF is less transfer friendly than 2007 and I don’t see any evidence that it is.

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50. WorldbyStorm - November 16, 2010

I arrive back after computer problems to find what? Sockpuppeting. That’s verboten Shane Cooper and entirely unnecessary. It doesn’t add to an argument, indeed quite the opposite.

It will be shut down if it continues.

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Shane Cooper - November 17, 2010

I have to say this. Mark P brought up masturbation, not me. and it is not the first time he has used masturbation to attack commentators here – attacks which you allow.

How many times now has Mark P tried to shut down a comentator by talking about their sexual preferences? Three, four, ten?

All I did – and the evidence is above me – is run with the standard Mark P set.

It is very clear from reading above that I did not say or do ANYTHING until Mark P came along and talked about how I rub myself against a couch while dreaming of Austen virgins.

I ran with that, it is true, but your good friend Mark P set the tone.

you have got to ask yourself, WBS, whether you are happy with someone like Mark P coming on and shutting down alternative voices, and using crotch rubbing to do it.

Actually, you HAVE thought about it and you ARE happy with it. Well, good for you.

It is also nice to know that if someone comes on and criticises the Socialist Party for their lack of economic acumen that they can be attacked with sarcasm and jokes about masturbation and the moderators are not only fine with that, but will actually criticise the original commentator for having the sheer audacity to fight fire with fire.

Good for you, WBS, good. for. you.

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LeftAtTheCross - November 17, 2010

Shane, just ignore Mark P. He has issues. His contributions here often contain useful material, there’s no question about the content, but his personality is somehere between smug and unhinged.

The irony is that because of him there is more than one person here who like myself wouldn’t go near the SP with a bargepole due to his involvement, so any progaganda or recruitment benefit that might arise out of his contributions gets wiped out because of his personality.

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Worldbystorm - November 17, 2010

Shane to be frank I find the whole masturbation angle on these discussions from whatever source a complete pain, I’m far from prudish about sex but it all smacks of teenage boys trying to rhetorically out doneach other. I also would be concerned about how this plays with a broader audience of either sex, so in that respect I have some sympathy with that point. But I’m leery about over moderation, I tend also to the view that people hang themselves online far more effectively by what they say than by me or Garibaldy or whoever trying to stop them saying it. As it happens while having some considerable respect for the SP and those in it I thought some of the initial parts of your critique were more than fair enough. But what point is served by sock puppeting or going off on a baroque one? It just increases noise to signal.

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Worldbystorm - November 17, 2010

By the way my original point made to you was sock puppeting. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on viewpoint none of the SPers are sock puppeting so that’d not really be fire with fire to use it. Truth is I suspect most people aren’t that pushed about SP economic policy such as it is. I certainly think that’s an enormous problem with their programme and makes aspects of their critiques of others sometimes difficult to take seriously but given that I’m not an SP member I’m not hugely exercised by it one way of another.

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Shane Cooper - November 17, 2010

Well, as I comppletely disregarded my first name, and didn’t attempt to hide in any fashion that it was one and the same, it’s hardly sock puppeting, is it?

If I had said that the first name made a good point, blah, blah, blah, then yeah. But I just continued as if they were one and the same. I don’t know who that Sarah person is, that’s being honest.

But, can I point something out to you WBS?

Have you ever counted the number of regular commentators you have here? what is it? six? ten?

Ever wonder why?

any time someone new shows up you get Mark P or beatyourstick going rabid on them calling them wankers, idiots, fornicators, etc, etc, etc, and so on, and not surprisingly that new person goes “fuck this” and stops leaving comments.

The discussions on cedarlounge are now completely insular, and anytime someone tries to jump in they get the socialist Party minions attacking them.

Now, WBS, that’s on you. I’m sorry, but it is.

And you seem to be completely happy with that.

My original point – with creative imagery – was that Sinn Fein are bringing a depth of analysis to the South that the established Left parties are completely lacking. These are changing times, but the Socialist Party is stuck in 1917, eaiting for the counter-revolution so it can get to shooting all the people it does not like.

I make those points, and I get called, as usual, a wanker.

That’s cedarlounge these days.

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Mark P - November 17, 2010

Shane,

Your self-pitying contributions here are hugely entertaining but more than a little silly.

You launched yourself into the comments section here with a bizarre and creepy post about virgins, Jane Austen and sluts and followed that up by using three sockpuppet names in the same discussion. Then you got caught and your response to is to first claim that everyone else is doing it and then when you are told that isn’t true to start whining to teacher about how other people are getting away with being bold boys.

You’ve shown no evidence at all that you were interested in a serious discussion of any kind, you are still yet to post in any discussion other than this one (at least under any of the names you’ve been using here), and because of your use of sockpuppets nobody can assume any level of honesty in the content of your posts. People posting here for the first time do not usually get the response you earned yourself.

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Shane Cooper - November 17, 2010

you’re a bully and a coward, Mark P. Nothing more, nothing less.

you sidestepped my valid criticisms of the Socialist Party by attacking the analogy, not the substance. not only that, while my criticisms were of the Party, your attack was of me.

I said that the Socialist Party has a bit to fear with the Adams move south.

you responded that I probably spend my time rubbing my private parts against a couch.

you sidestepped my points about the Socialist Party by making your now typical analogy to masturbation. When I responded in kind, like all bullies, you ran away.

Now you’re back trying to claim some high moral ground.

I’m sure you’ll be allowed to do so. as I said, that’s cedarlounge these days. Mark P can slag off anyone, make all the perosnal attacks he wants, and he is indulged, as bullies usually are.

That’s a bit of a shame really.

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Mark P - November 17, 2010

I can almost taste the sweet, sweet, self-pitying tears. Lean a bit closer to your monitor so I can lick them from your cheek.

Here’s a hint for you Shane, if you’ve got over your bout of snivelling. In the unlikely event that you ever really do want a serious discussion about something, don’t start the discussion with obvious sockpuppets and bizarre creepy fantasies about Jane Austen, virgins and sluts. For some reason that sort of behaviour tends to convince nasty cynical people that you are a troll and then you get responses appropriate for a troll.

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WorldbyStorm - November 17, 2010

Where to begin Shane Cooper. You sock puppeted. You used two different identities and whether you admit after the fact you made a conscious decision to do so.

Re the rest of your stuff.

We have many many more than six commentators on any thread you care to look at this week. And the absurdity of this is that as recently as the weekend before last Mark P and I were having a fairly emphastic disagreement on various issues. You think three commentators from the SP keeps the site afloat, or that we live in fear of them?

As for Mark P? Indulging him? Well, look you get what you pay for with him as with anyone else. Yeah, he’s got his own inimitable style and he’s crossed the line before now, but for God’s sake, you can choose to engage or not. No one forces you. A lot of the time I don’t bother, but in fairness a lot of stuff he doesn’t comment on either.

Your approach was utterly flawed from the off. And it seemed to be honest to be troll like. So why on earth would anyone rally to that? Then you use sockpuppets. Big no no, particularly since a disgusting example attacking alastair last year.

I suspect though that you don’t visit here very often if you think that Mark P or Budapestkick are the only response to someone new.
We hve valued commentators of left and right, such as Eagle and Tim and more recently Bartley in the latter case, and very welcome they are particualrly because they diverge from the overall tone of the site and in their own way keep us honest. Other sites on the internet, say Dublin Opinion for the sake of example take a different line which is entirely their choice and works for them. In other words you don’t like us, you want to shake your head and tut tut and bemoan the loss of some golden age when you don’t appear to have y’know, actually commented yourself… give me a break.

Indeed the real absurdity of this is that, as is well known if you read my own contributions on the site I’m a Republican socialist whose politics are best defined within the overlap between SF, the WP and the brand of politics exemplified by Tony Gregory. So the idea that I’m a partisan of the SP, however much I respect those within it or some of the work it does, is ridiculous. Garibaldy’s politics is equally obvious. That of Tomboktu less so but not entirely relevant to this discussion.

Insular discussions? What a load of cobblers and continue in that line and I’ll start to think it’s the CLR you’ve a problem with rather than Mark P.

You’re the only person who has made this complaint. And our numbers of hits which have consistently increased over the past four years, year on year, belie what you say. If people are being put off the site then they’re showing an odd way of doing it. Indeed truth to tell at points like this, and mine and Mark P’s discussion a week or so ago up go the stats. That’s not something I’m hugely comfortable with, but it’s the truth.

As for your broader point, well of course SF is doing economics in depth. My God, I could be hardly more complimentary to them about that in general and specific terms if I wrote for An Phoblacht. And of course that’s gong to be more in depth than the SP and SWP, but the functions of all those entities and formations is quite different from one another. I’ve already pointed out that I consider the economic analysis of much of the further left to be pretty grim to put it mildly, but I’m not here to diss one group over another.

And you’re no fool. You know the SP has fielded this question many times and you know more or less what the response will be, either stonewalling or something a bit more complex which we can choose to agree or disagree with. So why profess surprise at the outcome, particularly when you gave so many hostages to fortune, not least by using sexualised terminology from the off.

To complain to me because you chose to contribute here in the way that you did provoking a response that you could with a seconds thought have anticipated is unreasonable. As you know it’s all light touch moderation around here, but for if you’re going to take on a fairly self-referential ideological approach such as that exemplified by some parts of the further left you’ve got to be prepared for a negative response from its proponents. And to be honest you’ve also got to be prepared to general indifference from those of us who might even agree with you at least in part, when your own argument is so poorly made, seemingly troll-like and so open to counter-attack from the word go.

So all this woe is me ‘the cedarlounge these days’ stuff doesn’t cut much ice with me.

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51. Pope Epopt - November 16, 2010

Meanwhile, in the big wide world out there, Lenny has announced that he doesn’t have the mandate to negotiate a bailout with the EU.

Does this indicate that the wizard scheme to make sure that FG/Lab go to the evil Eurocrats with begging bowl and ‘surrender our sovereignty’ has been brought forward?

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coc - November 17, 2010

Whoaah there!

What was that you just typed there?

Linky?

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52. Donagh - November 17, 2010

I realise this is slightly off-topic, considering the subject that this thread started out with is very different where it has ended up, but I thought that my podcast interview with Joanne Spain, economic advisor and strategy manager for Sinn Fein, might be of interest.

She talks about some of the stuff discussed above (I mean, way up).

http://www.irishleftreview.org/2010/11/17/interview-joanne-spain-economic-advisor-sinn-fin/

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53. neilcaff - November 17, 2010

This thread is spiralling downwards rapidly and old arguments from previous threads are flaring up again.

Perhaps in the proud tradition of generations of Irish men and women we should simply bury all the bad feeling deep down inside and never speak of it again? (Unless it’s to a psychiatrist or bar man, who are paid to deal with such things)

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Budapestkick - November 17, 2010

Indeed. I think everyone’s done with this thread.

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WorldbyStorm - November 17, 2010

+1

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