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“It is the left republican tradition started by Connolly and continued by Mellows, Gilmore, O’Donnell, the Republican Congress, Clann na Poblachta and even the Workers’ Party to which we belong.” Discuss February 17, 2009

Posted by Garibaldy in Irish Politics.
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The quote in the title comes from Eoin Ó Broin at the launch if his book last night, referred to here, and reported in the Irish Times. Ó Broin is an effective communicator (if I am right he received some training in the US along with many other Irish political representatives during the 1990s), and built a good reputation whilst a councillor in north Belfast, before working in his party’s European department, then becoming his party’s Dun Laoghaire representative. He has been involved in publishing a magazine promoting left policies, and has written another book on the Basque situation. After the very poor general election results in the south, he wrote several articles in An Poblacht advocating a more clearly left position.

I’ll come back to the quote in a minute, but I want to talk briefly about the striking front cover (see the first above link), which has someone looking two ways, at Pearse on the one hand, and at Connolly on the other; the implication being that these represent the two main choices open to those who consider themselves republican: romantic nationalism on the one hand and a socialist republicanism on the other. This dichotomy is one that many have put forward, such as in the debate as to whether – or more often when – Connolly abandoned socialism for nationalism by throwing in his lot with Pearse. And yet it is not a dichotomy that many socialist republicans accept. For Tomás Mac Giolla, for example, Pearse’s final work, The Sovereign People (dated March 31st 1916, just a few weeks before the Rising and in which Pearse declared that he had no more to say on “the Irish definition of freedom”) reflected a conversion of Pearse by Connolly to a socialist understanding of the major issues a new Republic would have to face. And in fact, Pearse does indeed make the case that in the Republic, all property is subject to the nation, which has the right to determine how that property is to be distributed, and countenances the possibility of the nation paying a wage to all, with the surplus going into the national treasury. The work discusses the political thought of major republican figures, including Tone on the men of no property and examines in detail the ideas of James Fintan Lalor, from whom Pearse is clearly developing his final definition of Irish freedom:

“Tone sounded the gallant reveillé of democracy in Ireland. The man who gave it its battle-cries was James Fintan Lalor.”

Towards the end of The Sovereign People, Pearse states the following

And just as all the four have reached, in different terms, the same gospel, making plain in turn different facets of the same truth, so the movements I have indicated are but facets of a whole, different expressions, and each one a necessary expression, of the august, though denied, truth of Irish Nationhood; nationhood in virtue of an old spiritual tradition of nationality, nationhood involving Separation and Sovereignty, nationhood resting on and guaranteeing the freedom of all the men and women of the nation and placing them in effective possession of the physical conditions necessary to the reality and to the perpetuation of their freedom, nationhood declaring and establishing and defending itself by the good smiting sword. I who have been in and of each of these movements make here the necessary synthesis, and in the name of all of them I assert the forgotten truth, and ask all who accept it to testify to it with me, here in our day and, if need be, with our blood.

This notion of the need for battle and blood may well chime with the Pearse we are used to hearing about, but we should not overlook the statement about the nation meeting all the physical needs required by a people to live in freedom. Although Pearse was clearly no Marxist and identified himself primarily as a nationalist, unlike Connolly, perhaps the cover of the book is mistaken, and Arthur Griffith should be facing Connolly.

To return then to the quote from Eoin Ó Broin. I don’t know about everyone else, but I was very surprised when I saw it. I’d have thought that claiming to belong to the same tradition as The Workers’ Party remained strictly verboten. In fact, the angry response over several decades to any comparisons with The WP and the hostility among Provisionals to the joke that did the rounds after the Provisional ceasefire about the difference between the sticks and the provos being 20 years suggests that Ó Broin is very much out of step with mainstream Provisional thinking. And I wonder how far the people he is roping into this tradition would agree with him. I am open to correction here, but I’m fairly sure that Gilmore and O’Donnell, who lived into the 1980s, never regarded Ó Broin’s party as being part of their tradition. Why then is Ó Broin drawing these comparisons? Clearly, like every generation since 1798, he is looking for historical precedents, although I’d have thought that this particular bunch of precedents was unlikely to enamour his argument to too many people within his own party. In fact, I wonder if in drawing on these precedents he is being forced outside of his own party tradition precisely because there is little that he can draw on within it for inspiration. In a world where your party leader is invited to the White House for the inauguration of a president whose main foreign policy objective is to double the number of troops in Afganistan, surely it requires a great deal of mental flexibility if not self-delusion to argue that the party as a whole represents an authentic socialist republicanism? Could it be then that the real target audience is not in fact people within his own party, but the British left? I’m not sure.

What I do know is that The WP response to the 20 years joke was to add “and socialism”, and that that whirring sound people can hear is most likely Joe Cahill spinning in his grave.

ADDS: On a pedantic point that I forgot about in the main text, the left republican tradition, it seems to me, was central to the republican tradition in Ireland from its inception, and can be found right throughout its history, rather than emerging with Connolly. A particularly good example of this is the Fenian Proclamation of the Republic in 1867 available here.

ADDS PART DEUX: It seems possible from Wednesday and Remi in the comments zone that Ó Broin may have been misquoted, and that he referred to Official Sinn Féin as part of the Left Republican tradition, but not The Workers’ Party. Whether this makes the comment and more or less interesting I’ll leave it for others to judge.

Comments»

1. Eamonn - February 17, 2009

The picture on the cover is, I think, of the artist Robert Ballagh who drew it.
As for the contents of the book, we will no doubt be surprised by many of the authors claims, let alone the authors claims that Sinn Fein are in any way a socialist orientated party. Their history , from Arthur Griffith and through the years puts them in the centre right position. Without doubt, many socialists and lefties were part of Sinn Fein and the provos but overall the ideals and aims were strictly centerist. Womens Rights, Divorce, Trade Unionism, Community agitation etc.., were all issues which individual Shinners participated but in which the party stood aloof from. Even now, the policies of Sinn Fein are shallow and populist. Their recent rejection at the last elections and their poor showing in recent polls (even as the tide turns)
leads us to believe that people are not fooled by the apolitical stances. They are, and have probably always been, a poor mans Fianna Fail. The support that sustained them over the past century was the support for the struggle for independence alone. This centuries support is from a different perspective but one that is still centred around the 6 counties. It is not a socialist orientated support but a mixed bag of voters who are drawn to the party for reasons such as ” no alternative, opportunism, activism”.
It is unlikely that the leadership of Sinn Fein at any given period of their history felt alligned to O’Donnell, Mellows, the Republican Congress let alone Republican/socialists in the 70 & 80’s. The moves against the communist orientated prisoners by the leadership is a clear example of this. No, despite the attempt to rewrite history by namechecking socialist republicans of bygone eras, Mr O’Broin will not convince many of Sinn Feins leanings.

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2. Mark P - February 17, 2009

Jesus, I nearly spat my tea on my computer when I read that headline.

O’Broin seems to have a license to be Sinn Fein’s in-house radical. He was involved with the very politically thin Left Republican Review without attracting ire from the powers that be. He also got the chance to complain, to no discernible effect of course, about the rightward tack of the leadership in An Phoblacht. But it was Mary Lou McDonald at the helm of his book launch.

I suspect that this license is afforded to him primarily because having someone to paint Sinn Fein red for a radical audience is useful. Ogra Sinn Fein’s flirtations with Guevara imagery and the like is another example.

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3. Eamonn - February 17, 2009

I think I should have mentioned that yesterday was the first anniversary of the passing of Bendan Hughes, socialist and soldier. I think Brendan would have been a perfect person to outline the lack of left politics within the Sinn Fein leadership. When last in Dublin, he spoke about the ex-pow’s being employed for the lowest wage on building projects for the leadership.He spoke about the failure of the party to look after those most in need, those who gave everything to the movement. Expendable was the term he used. I think Brendan and the hundreds of others like him would reflect the nearest Sinn Fein will get to the Left. Left behind by a leadership more geared up to photo opportunities with Henry Kissinger and George Bush and happy to accept donations from Corporate America and HM government.

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4. Remi Moses - February 17, 2009

If O Broin had mentioned Connolly, Mellows, the Congress and Clann na Poblachta but not the WP how remarkable would his statement be? The republican movement at its most backward and traditional have always claimed Connolly and Mellows (their martyrdom, if not their ideas, but both men can be read to justify almost anything). An Phoblacht in my distant youth (early 1980s) used to regularly carry stuff about Saor Eire (1931 version), the Congress and O’Donnell/Gilmore. Michael MacDonnacha, a former AP/RN editor, is a big O’Donnellite. (Theres a school of thought that O’Donnell actually wrote Mellow’s Notes from Mountjoy anyway).
With respect Garibaldy, I think you might overestimate how ‘right-wing’ the provos were, especially in the 1980s. O Bradaigh would also certainly claim Mellows, including his counter-revolution ‘stake in the country people’ thesis and the big objection to the Congress would be that they abandoned the true republic.
Clann na Poblachta were not left-wing and MacBride couldn’t kiss enough Bishop’s rings. Clann had a populist tinge and benefitted from disillusion with FF in 1947 by being like the FF of 1926.
O’Donnell was a bit of an old fraud in my view, not withstanding being a great agitator in the 30s and flirted with most sides of the republican equation in the 1970s. Gilmore was if anything pretty close to the CP and would have regarded the WP as too anti-nationalist.
I can see where O Broin is coming from, though I doubt some of his comrades will like the association with the WP. He is speaking in St. Marys in Belfast tmw night.

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5. WorldbyStorm - February 17, 2009

Eamonn, very true that it is the first anniversary. And you’re completely right, that’s Robert Ballagh on the painting, it’s one of his.

Garibaldy, isn’t it an improvement in matters that someone like him would mention the WP in terms that were less antagonistic than the past? I think Remi is right, I have little illusion that SF is a further left party, but it is broadly speaking a party of the centre left. Which in fairness to them gives them a fair bit of space to move around in which doesn’t have to include, say for example, the communist left, while still having socialist aspects. I don’t see a contradiction there.

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6. Seán Ó Tuama - February 17, 2009

For once agree with Garibaldy on the progressive nature of much of Pearse’s thought. On education alone, he was way ahead of his time.
Granted Robert Ballagh’s politics, however, I think it unlikely that the painting was intended to suggest a total contradiction between Pearse and Connolly; more likely different emphases and Ballagh’s doubts as where his own emphasis should lie.

Interestingly, Ballagh was sympathetic to the Young Socialists around 1970/71 and designed a cover for at least one of theie magazines. Wish I still had it: it would be an interesting collector’s item.

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7. Eamonn - February 18, 2009

I just remembered an interesting point regarding Robert Ballagh. During the 75th anniversary of the Easter Rising, we asked him to produce a limited edition print. He duly obliged and a great picture of the leaders it was. However, the primary people in the picture were Connolly and the Countess. No problem for many of us but quite a lot of complaints from other sections on the basis that Pearse etc.., should always be to the fore.

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8. Garibaldy - February 18, 2009

Eamonn,

Thanks for the info on the painting. An interesting picture, and an interesting thing to use.

Mark P,

Glad to see someone was as shocked as me. I agree that Ó Broin is most likely being used as an in-house radical lightning rod, but then again the debate after the last election in the paper was fairly thorough. The question is if he is a tame lefty, is he aware of it, or does he believe what he is saying. I presume he does believe it.

Remi,

The Congress and the Clann I would definitely be surprised at regardless of The WP. And worth drawing attention to in themselves. As to how right-wing or otherwise the Provos were, my attitude is basically that they would say whatever they thought their audience wanted to hear, be it American traditionalists or the British ultra-left. Essentially pragmatic, and therefore without a clear socialist line in my view, despite the attitude of individual members, who sometimes reached positions of prominence. So while they talk socialism in the south, they implement PFI in the north. Not much has changed.

WBS,

The past has in many senses been laid to rest, which is a good thing. Certainly PSF has a centre left line, but the tradition here is significantly to the left of that (minus Clann), and is essentially a revolutionary socialist one, far to the left of what the overwhelming majority of their members, certainly in the north, would ever have felt. To me, that makes it all the more interesting.

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9. Garibaldy - February 18, 2009

Seán,

Perhaps I misinterpreted the painting a bit, but I think the idea the two represent two very different paths is inherent in it.

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10. Pedantic Pat - February 18, 2009

Congress were not revolutionary socialist; they were expressly a popular front of republican and left-wing groups that contained a wide variety of thought. They split exactly over the question of whether to become a socialist party or not. O’Donnell said that his objection to De Valera was not that he wasn’t a socialist, as he never claimed to be one, but that Dev wasn’t a real republican.

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11. Wednesday - February 18, 2009

I wasn’t at the launch but people here were talking about it yesterday and apparently Eoin was misquoted (surprise surprise). What he actually said, apparently, was more along the lines of even Official SF were left republicans, back before they turned into the Workers’ Party.

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12. Dan - February 18, 2009

I would say Pat is spot on; the RC consolidated itself to be most left republican movement, and whilst it remains so to this day, that in truth is a far cry from socialist thought.

Whilst I have some admiration for O’Donnell, he like so many others, couldn’t tear his socialism away from his nationalism. Nor did he have enough conviction to stand by radical beliefs; for instance, when in Spain, he met and stayed with the anarchists fighting in the Civil War for revolution, finding their actions agreeable, yet he still felt that fascism should be fought for a bourgeois democracy victory.

This is what draws the line between socialists and republican socialists, the former never puts anything before the class struggle.

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13. Remi Moses - February 18, 2009

Just flicking through the O Broin book itself this morning and he lists various forms of left-republican formations and distinctly says Official Sinn Fein the 1970s, not the WP thereafter. I presume he will clarify in Belfast tonight.

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14. Garibaldy - February 18, 2009

I’ve updated the post to reflect this possibility, and if anyone sees any reports of the talk tonight, or attends it, please let us know if anything on this issue is said. I assume it will be.

On the Congress. From my memory, the split over the term “workers’ republic” did not mean that one side rejected socialism and the other didn’t. It was more a case of getting the republic first, then building socialism, though both together would have been nice. I think that my characterisation of it as revolutionary socialist certainly reflects the intentions of its founders and leading lights, while I will acknowledge the truth in what is being said here by Pedantic Pat and Dan.
Although I am not sure that Dan’s point about fighting fascism for the minimum demand of a bourgeois democratic republic necessarily relates to his point about O’Donnell and nationalism. It seems to me more like it was about what was the most practical in a civil war against a vicious enemy, rightly or wrongly.

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15. ejh - February 18, 2009

Remi Moses, blimey, that takes me back. Mind you I still think of him as a West Brom player.

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16. Mark P - February 18, 2009

The Republican Congress split was essentially over whether to fight for the Republic or the Workers Republic and at the same time over whether to be a popular front or a socialist party.

The Communist Party were the main proponents of the popular front and “the republic” and the main opponents of forming a socialist party and pushing for “the workers republic”. As Garibaldy notes this wasn’t because they were against socialism or “the workers republic” in principle but because they were Stalinists, married to class collaboration, the popular front and stageism.

I’m not surprised to see that O’Broin is disavowing the quote about the Workers Party. That wouldn’t go down well amongst the Provo ranks. It’s important to note that O’Broin, despite his status as licensed radical in Sinn Fein, is not actually all that radical himself as anyone who has heard him debate against socialist organisations can tell you. It’s only by comparison with the rest of the Provos that he looks like a firebrand.

On which subject, I note in response to WorldbyStorm’s description of Sinn Fein as “centre-left” that the term “centre-left” is entirely meaningless in policy terms and generally reflects only the way a party is marketing itself.

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17. Seán Ó Tuama - February 18, 2009

On the question of the Ballagh painting, I have seen copies of it before and have always found it very interesting and intriguing. I may be wandering into WbS territory here, but I think that at the very least, it suggests that the painter is receptive to both messages and that therefore he does not see the traditions as fundamentally contradictory. It is possible that what he is suggesting is that Pearse is appealing to him on a subjective level and Connolly on an intellectual level (although Pearse was by any standards an intellectual and Connolly could be quite subjective on occasion).

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18. Ciarán - February 18, 2009

Quick piece on the Ballagh painting:
Ballagh’s reading of recent Irish history informs much of his. work. The History Lesson, a 1989 triangular-shaped painting, with a brownish palette redolent of a newspaper archival print, shows the artist in informal checked shirt and glasses, portrayed with two heads, each moving with swift alertness towards the nobly static figures of James Connolly and Patrick Pearse, who are seated either side of a table under an interrogative overhanging light. Ballagh says that he is fascinated by the fact that the political rebellion of 1916 was ‘led by poets, actors, writers, musicians, social reformers, Irish language activists – a truly remarkable gathering of people who wanted to break with England and create an independent Ireland.’ The painting was partly created in response to an extreme climate of censorship and historical re-writing that had grown up in Ireland in the 1970s and 80s when, under the shadow of paramilitary violence in Northern Ireland, rebels such as Connolly and Pearse were often dismissed as dangerous subversives, possibly terrorists – an attitude that is no longer widespread since the end of the Troubles.

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19. Ciarán - February 18, 2009

Dan: Whilst I have some admiration for O’Donnell, he like so many others, couldn’t tear his socialism away from his nationalism. Nor did he have enough conviction to stand by radical beliefs; for instance, when in Spain, he met and stayed with the anarchists fighting in the Civil War for revolution, finding their actions agreeable, yet he still felt that fascism should be fought for a bourgeois democracy victory.

This is what draws the line between socialists and republican socialists, the former never puts anything before the class struggle.

Even though the exact same position O’Donnell took on Spain was also taken by socialists and especially communists around the world, and I doubt you could accuse all of them of putting their own national interests above class interests.

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20. Ciarán - February 18, 2009

Garibaldy: What I do know is that The WP response to the 20 years joke was to add “and socialism”, and that that whirring sound people can hear is most likely Joe Cahill spinning in his grave.

Not to mention that they never destroyed their weapons, they just (supposedly) handed a load over to the UVF and (supposedly) kept the rest for their building site scams – though I guess that latter part does (supposedly) make them somewhat similar to the Provies.

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21. Garibaldy - February 18, 2009

Handing stuff over to loyalists is an accusation I don’t recall hearing before. If people wish to believe that, then it’s up to them.

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22. Wednesday - February 18, 2009

Mark P:

I’m not surprised to see that O’Broin is disavowing the quote about the Workers Party.

Where? Do you have a link?

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23. NollaigO - February 18, 2009

On a pedantic point that I forgot about in the main text, the left republican tradition, it seems to me, was central to the republican tradition in Ireland from its inception, and can be found right throughout its history, rather than emerging with Connolly. A particularly good example of this is the Fenian Proclamation of the Republic in 1867 available here..
Agreed.
The book, Ireland and the First International, has much information about the involvement of fenians in the International in Ireland and abroad.
The author of this book, Seán Daly, was a 1950s Curragh internee and involved in the Cork Workers Club in the late 1960s. Ruán O’Donnell, in one of his 50th anniversity talks on the Border campaign described Seán as a leading Column commander.

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24. Mick Hall - February 18, 2009

I’m with WBS on this, and just because someone in the SF leadership may believe they are using O’Broin, does not make him a stooge, now does it.

I will reserve my judgement on the book until I read it, please do not get angry with me, but reading this thread reminded me somewhat of the type of navel gazing some Trotskyist love to engage in. Who said what in the past etc, etc, whilst totally ignoring the fact that the past is another country, as the man said.

If the Republican left keeps humping this baggage around it is not going anywhere. My experience of O’Broin is he is prepared to engage in debate. He remained in SF whilst some of his comrades went on to found éirígí; and think what you will about that organization, the comrades who have emerged out of Dublim SF seem to have no wish to engage in sectarian carping.

Perhaps we all, myself included, need to learn a lesson here and start judging people on what they say and do today.

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25. Garibaldy - February 18, 2009

Nollaig,

Thanks for the info on that book. I’ll certainly try and get hold of it as it is a topic I am interested in.

That’s fair enough Mick, no offence taken. Still, I felt it was such a striking statement that it was worth pointing out, and would be of interest to people here. And in my defence I wasn’t the only one – there was a thread on P.ie about it, and it was quoted in the introductions to at least two posts on sluggerotoole. I’d never seen the painting until WBS had posted the advert for the launch, but didn’t write about it there lest it seem like I was carping, and not engaging with the actual issue. Writing about this reported statement let me do that too. So for a number of different reasons, writing a post on this appealed.

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26. WorldbyStorm - February 18, 2009

Anyway, to echo Mick, for my money the OSF tradition is a left tradition. Aspects of the PSF tradition are largely so (albeit with other ones impacting). The Republican Congress likewise. And so on. I’m certainly not going to get too het up about issue of left and centre left. Or get too involved in programmes that look unlikely to be implemented, however much I respect and admire those who take that route. I think that his statement was in some respects a brave one considering the shared histories so fair dues to him… it’s self-evident too. And let’s be honest, I see no harm in picking out that tradition mentioned above and not being shy about it. It’s Republican Socialist and that its broad enough in some respects is fine.

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27. Dan - February 19, 2009

Garibaldy,

My point regarding O’Donnell’s take on Spain mirrors his torment of his socialist nationalism; he, like many others, could not divorce themselves from the party line, and recognise a socialist movement that was right in front of his face. Ciarán is right, neither could others. That failure to do so renders labour to the fringe today.

O’Donnell is the epitome of socialist republicanism; it never dares to challenge. The paradoxical truck with nationalism, albeit a subtler kind, means it’ll be as relevant as Tone and Mitchel are today. Socialists, like those in Spain, want more.

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28. Garibaldy - February 19, 2009

I take his position on Spain to be that faced with the fascist enemy the widest possible alliance was necessary in order to defeat it. And alas, that proved inadequate to the task. I also thought that Ciarán thought that was what O’Donnell was doing, as did the majority of people with his worldview, within Spain and abroad but I’m sure Ciarán will correct me if I am wrong.

Are Tone and Mitchell irrelevant today? I think given the sectarian nature of the north, no. Not at all.

I will however agree that class politics cannot and should not be put off on the basis of the national question in Ireland.

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29. Mark P - February 19, 2009

WbS:

I was going on Wednesday’s report that O’Broin was misquoted. I have no information beyond that.

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30. WorldbyStorm - February 19, 2009

I think you’re responding to Wednesday’s second question Mark P… 🙂

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31. WorldbyStorm - February 19, 2009

Garibaldy, I agree that class politics should not be put off, but I think that in the Irish context national questions clearly cut across class politics in a way that makes it near impossible to implement them (and watching the series of progs about Iran over the last week or two I think something similar is true of there on that front, where national and then religious issues swept class issues aside – perhaps its the intertwining of religion and nationality which is key here).

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32. Dan - February 19, 2009

But his approach, like so many supposed ‘communists’ is the either or; anarchists fought fascism but without willing to compromise their integrity. Frontism, as history has shown time and time again, never works in our favour.

Regardless of the nature, when have bourgeois men ever been relevant?

And yet class struggle has always been put off in Ireland in response to that question, from fighting with the same men that had locked out workers in 1913, by order of the movement’s father might I add, to socialists throwing in their lot with either Stalinist reactionaries, or Catholic madmen. Irish republicanism offers absolutely nothing to socialist, but a march to Bodenstown every year.

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33. Garibaldy - February 19, 2009

Anarchists mightn’t have been endangering their integrity, but that attitude did endanger the republic. Cooperating with progressive parts of other classes is hardly a new idea for socialists. You can find it advocated in Marx where he talks about the importance of political demands for democracy and other reformist demands. It’s just that we can’t be satisfied with those alone. As for frontism, people in, say, Cuba and Vietnam, or more recently Nepal, might argue differently, although they of course might just be Stalinist reactionaries.

WBS,

Certainly the mix of religion and nationality is always posionous, and an impediment to class politics. That’s why socialists must not ally themselves with those who mix the two. In the north, national questions clearly easily outweigh class ones when it comes to elections, and identity. Is the same true in the south? I think not. Nor – as the 11 Plus/”academic” selection issue shows – does the national question mean that class politics does not exist; as I’ve probably said here before, NI has class politics, just that it is the politics of the bourgeoisie. As you know yourself. And so we are back to the long-term struggle to replace one form (or in fact two forms) of self-identification with another.

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34. Dan - February 19, 2009

Socialists don’t concern themselves with governments and their up keeping neither. These are fundamental basics.

Class collaboration was espoused by Marx, for he was a reformist first and foremost. Luckily for us, there was further theorists after him.

Yeah, ‘communist states’ are usually hotbeds for frontist cretinism; you’re not suggesting this is anything desirable to emulate, surely? These have trouble with another fundamental basic, the notion of a stateless society.

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35. Garibaldy - February 19, 2009

Ah, so the nub of the matter is that you regard socialism as anarchism. The state is an instrument of class oppression. Socialists must use it to transform society, before it can disappear. That is a fundamental.

Certainly, in the examples we have seen, security threats both external and internal have necessitated a larger state than most would like. As for frontism. I’ll take something with a history of producing progressive results both within and without Ireland without surrendering my basic principles. It’s a matter of strategy, based on the objective correlation of forces.

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36. Mick Hall - February 19, 2009

I do not believe it is true that what Dan describes as Frontism never works. True it does not lead to automatically to revolution, but if revolution was truly on the cards there would be no need of a PF. I believe it is doubtful whether without a popular front type administration, the Spanish Republic could have held the Fascist back for appox three years. I would have given it a year at most.

What Dan is doing is a mistake often repeated by many on the left, i e if Frontism had been rejected for a full blown revolutionary strategy, then the outcome of a Spanish revolution would have been assured, which with respect is rubbish.

Unfortunately these comrades do not produce a shred of evidence to support this beyond it worked in Russia, never mind that was 20 years before, when Stalinism was only a nightmare awaiting on the horizon.

Myself I feel the Communist Party in Spain took collaborating with the bourgeois parties to far, and could have left the anarchist alone to carry on with there experiments. Which were worthy to say the least.

A popular front is an excellent methodology when the working classes are not strong enough to go it alone. The trouble is some people make a fetishism of supporting it, whilst the others do the same in reverse.

Horse for courses should be the lefts watchword, if a ‘viable’ chance of revolution is on the cards, go for it. When it is not, as it seems to me is with the situation today, we need to unite with all progressives around common ground; and attempt to build a coalition of the like minded.

To return to Spain, it is difficult to see how a Spanish revolution would have succeeded, there were few manufacturing plants within Spain of aircraft, artillery etc, The western democracies would have refused to supply these to a Spanish red army, as to would Stalin as he new a successful revolution in Spain would threaten his regime.

Whereas Germany and Italy would have continued to supply Franco’s forces.

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37. Dan - February 19, 2009

What sort of communism it is, if not without rulers? (Sounds like a joke involving Leninism)

The state apparatus cannot be adapted for a socialist society, it can only be smashed. If not written in countless theory, it’s certainly all to see in empirical evidence; every authoritarian movement has replaced the ruling class with one of its own.

A stateless society means no state whatsoever. Whether it is small or large is irrelevant.

Pray tell, what are these progressive results frontism produced? NuLabour? USSR? Cuba? You’re struggling with that other fundamental of Marxism; didactic materialism. You’re meant to learn from these mistakes, not trumpet them.

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38. Dan - February 19, 2009

Mick, with respect, what are you on about? All this hypothetical talk of popular fronts and revolutions if they occur are fruitless; a revolution was occurring, and the CP opposed it, not only fragmenting the precarious popular front that you bang on about, but quelled the social change. None of that is hypothetical, it’s fact, and simple logic. If the Stalinists spent a little more time worrying about Franco, and less about the POUM and the anarchists, they would have stood a greater change of winning.

I don’t need to provide a shred of evidence, because it’s bloody common sense. Two groups of socialists united are obviously stronger than seperate.

Not supporting class collaboration is not fetishism of any sort; it’s called integrity. It’s evident that’s a foreign concept to you. Socialists are not ideological mercenaries. We stick to our ideals, for better or for worse, because if we do not, we end up with a Stalin, with puppets like you holding him up. Never again!

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39. Mark P - February 19, 2009

Dan: Far from refusing to compromise their integrity, the Anarchists actually joined the Popular Front government.

Garibaldy: The idea that the state is an instrument of class oppression is not an anarchist one or at least not only an anarchist one, as a brief perusal of State and Revolution would show you.

As for Cuba and Vietnam, those are indeed Stalinist regimes and no more examples of genuine socialism than they are of David Icke’s lizard people. I notice you didn’t include North Korea in that list of dictatorships that the Workers Party dementedly admires on this occasion.

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40. Seán Ó Tuama - February 19, 2009

I agree with Dan on his criticism of O’ Donnell’s position during the Spanish Civil War. However to blame this on his Republicanism rather than his Stalinism, I think, is really unfair.

I suspect that most (non-stalinised) Irish republicans at the time would have had an instinctive sympathy with Anarchism, apart from religious questions.

I think that probably the major reason that Ireland never had an Anarchist tradition was that people who might in other situations sympathised with Anarchism, became Republicans. There are considerable similarities between the two traditions. An instinctve anti-authoritarianism (which did exist despite the militarist aspects of the tradition), an absolutist approach to political principles, a tendency towards individual terror, a certain emotionalism and political colour and a almost automatic tendency to be “agin the state”.

Even the Irish International Brigaders, mainly Republicans, had considerable dificulties with the English Stalinist leadership they were initially subjected to.

In my teens, in the late sixties, brought up in a Dublin Republican, Trade Unionist and Irish speaking family, I was somewhat surprised to find among my father’s books George Woodcock’s wartime booklet, Anarchy or Chaos.

So, Dan, I think you should re-examine the Republican tradition before you totally reject it. Even the Catalan Anarchists had a nuanced attitude towards self determination for Catalonia.

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41. Mick Hall - February 19, 2009

Dan,

Sorry Dan but you have displayed the over-used bluster of some comrades who claim a revolution in Spain could have been successful. Sadly in 1936, the only revolution that took place in Spain was Franco’s.

What you had in the republican territories was pockets of revolutionary upheaval, but there was no real attempt by the workers of town and country to overthrow the Spanish Republican State.

Comrade, you are like all men of straw, quick to throw rocks at others who differ with your take, but you have made no attempt to engage in real debate by dealing with my main points. With newly equipped Divisions of the Franco army heading their way, who was going to arm the workers to a significant degree that they could make a fight of it?

Back in 1936, comrades had to make a choice in the heat of battle, but for you to simply ape some of those decisions without question, hardly helps us understand how we do not repeat the same mistakes again.

I will ignore your nasty remarks in your last paragraph and put it down to immaturity, rather than see you as someone who becomes emboldened when they sit at the keyboard.

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42. Dan - February 19, 2009

Mark P, the CNT joined the government; I wasn’t aware one sole group represented a whole movement.

Sean, in speaking of the parallels between anarchism and republicanism, you mention individual terror; this is only constant in the individualistic currents of anarchism. Collective anarchists have, on the whole, refrained from such frankly anti-working class action.

That republicanism led potential socialists down the wrong path is precisely why I no longer consider myself one. There has never been a mentionable libertarian socialist current, and so, it offers nothing for me, nor socialism as a vehicle of change.

And Mick, again, you’re not quite sure what you’re on about; the revolution was the first on a country wide scale of collectivisation, where workers utilised soviets and ran the land, with greater production than in capitalist society. It was the state that smashed these, like it does in every instance. Therefore, your belief in frontism is even more ridiculous, given the history.

I’m not sure how rounding up all the anarchists and libertarian communists is a decision made “in the heat of battle”; it was a calculated decision made well in advance by Stalin, and exacted over time. The problem wasn’t the Russians providing the armaments, but the CP drones following the party line. The IBs should have rejected the imposed leadership, like socialists should with any illegitimate authority, and fought for what was right. But then that requires integrity. ’tis a vicious circle.

No one like a revision monger. Please educate yourself regarding Spain before coming out with the same tripe.

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43. Dunne and Crescendo - February 19, 2009

Very helpful tone Dan, just the way to promote a discussion.

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44. WorldbyStorm - February 19, 2009

Dan, take it easy. This is a site for discussion (bar the Curran Aluminium thread which seems to be some sort of therapy for the parties involved), not tossing around cliched terms of abuse. The points you make are interesting. The way you’re making them less so.

I’m particularly unkeen on rerunning the Spanish Civil War here when not one of us AFAIK was or is directly involved or had any hand or part in decisions made. And for the record I have considerable sympathy for both POUM and the anarchists.

Sean, that’s a really striking thought on the parallels between anarchism and republicanism. Not entirely convinced, the rural urban divide throws a bit of a spanner in the works, but its certainly something I’d look at closer having read what you said.

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45. Mick Hall - February 19, 2009

Dan
It is difficult to debate with someone who believes only their ideas have any validity, but I cannot let you get away with what you have said as we have far to many Victor Meldrew’s on the left, who are keen to tell people what they should have done, and where previous generation ‘sold out’. But do not have a word to say about how we move forward today.

You refuse to face the very question that a great many of those who had positions of responsibility in the Spanish republic, including anarchists, spent their days tormented by. How and from whom could the republican army gain its weaponry. Instead you prattle about collectivization in total isolation from the situation on the ground.

Yes, estates were collectivized and brought under the workers control and yes it was a criminal act to de-collectivize them. I have already conceded this in my earlier comments to this thread, when I condemned the stalinist for intervening, which in your eyes makes me a Stalinist lackey, weird.

Pray tell me, without modern weaponry or the means to manufacture it fast, how could what you believe to be an emerging workers republic be defended from the fascist armies that were organizing on its doorstep. You write as if such things come about simply because you, the great anarchist wishes it.

When a comrade raised on this thread the role played by anarchists comrades like Garcia Oliver and Frederica Montseny, you shuffle your feet like a flim flam man crying out, “Not me gov.” You disown these fine comrades and then return to smearing people whose politics, experience and knowledge you have absolutely no knowledge of. Which in my mind makes you a nasty little bully, if not a provocateur?

When I wrote about making decisions in the heat of the battle, as you were well aware, I was not talking about the events in Barcelona but your own inability to look beyond the narrow sectarian confines of your own beliefs.

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46. Mark P - February 19, 2009

Dan:

No, the CNT wasn’t the entire anarchist movement. It was however the only mass anarchist organisation in Spain and it included all but a negligible percentage of organised anarchists there. If you are going to use Spain as an example of how anarchists refuse to abandon their “integrity”, you will continue to run into the problem of the CNT’s actual participation in the Popular Front.

This was a product not of personal betrayal by the CNT leaders and their supporters but the inadequacy of anarchist politics in a revolutionary situation. The bulk of the anarchist movement ended up rejecting their own fundamental ideas about the state, the popular front, class collaboration and the like.

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47. Mick Hall - February 19, 2009

Mark P

I’m glad you said it was not a product of personal betrayal, although these comrades must have gone through hell before they went into the government. I have great respect for Garcia Oliver who briefly became Minister of Justice, some of his statements on Justice and Law when he was a minister are magnificent and have never been bettered.

For all the flaws in their political philosophy, the Spanish anarchist make the heart sing. The confidence they had in working class people should be an example to us all. Funny enough I have just read a detective novel based on the death of the great anarchist solder Buenaventura Durruti, it is a very good book.

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48. Dan - February 19, 2009

I’m just responding in kind to Mick’s comradely behaviour. And you know what they say about something clichéd ringing true.

Mick, I responded to your question of arms, quite clearly, although you evidently didn’t read it; the IBs should have turned their guns on their superiors, and joined the revolution.

The anarchists meanwhile, would have done well to shun frontism, and procure the government’s gold, instead of having them hand it over to Stalin. These funds would have got armaments no bother.

We “prattle on about collectivisation” because radical social change occurred in tandem with a fierce fascist war, on a scale we’ve never seen prior, or yet to see. It is the best socialist triumph yet. We’re quite fond of something like that.

Again, the CNT did not solely represent the anarchist movement (nor were they the only organisation as Mark suggests, there was the FAI). I disown them because of their shit politics, with my legs completely still. No anarchist joins government.

I’ve spoken out about the inability from CP supporters to support a fully fledged socialist movement; you can only be responding to their antagonism to their fellow compatriots.

“the confidence they had in working class people should be an example to us all” – it’s usually a prerequisite to being a socialist, that you believe in your fellow class, snobbery aside. How you’ve the cheek to mention the current day struggle, when you’re living in past parroting the grand way forward as joining with progressives, it’s beggars belief.

Mark, your claim that it was anarchist politics at fault, and not the CNT’s betrayal is wrong, especially when it was members of the group responsible for the collectivisation, and the CNT colluding with the state to remove councils. Whilst the leadership is always prone to trading their dignity, this doesn’t automatically suggest the rank and file are.

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49. WorldbyStorm - February 19, 2009

That’s an awful lot of certainty. I don’t know that at this remove we can be absolutely definite about the correctness or otherwise of many aspects of the behaviour of players in the civil war. After all the same applies to our own one as well. Nor do I think it’s useful to posit this as anarchists right, everyone else wrong anymore than the opposite. All groups made grievous errors. Retrofitting the past in this way is ahistorical and hardly useful in sorting out contemporary or future approaches.

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50. Mick Hall - February 19, 2009

Dan,

Let me get this right, your big idea is shooting a few Stalinist Commissars and then turning the pistols with which you topped them on Franco’s tanks and the Luftwaffe Condor Legion? I admit it is an original and cunning plan, but whether it would have gone down well with those at the front, I’m not so sure.

I see a bit of a problem developing on your horizon, according to you the CNT was wrong, the FAI was wrong, the anarchist who joined the republican government were wrong, the socialist parties were all wrong, it goes without saying [im sure] the communist parties were wrong, i’m wrong, Marks wrong, need I go on, forgive me but space and time.

Heres your problem, if you keep on like this there will be no one left to blame, and where will that leave you.

What you need is another cunning plan. Comrade

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51. Eamonn - February 19, 2009

The Spanish Civil War??…..And to think we were discussing Sinn Fein and its political doctrine before someone lost track. Anyhow, just to lower the tone, today the shinners paid 15,000 pounds to ex employee Dodie McGuinness over the sexist and ageist action in sacking her in a case she brought to the equality agency. Oh…and as for the other debate…No Pasaran!!

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52. Mark P - February 19, 2009

Dan:

The FAI was much smaller than the CNT and it heavily overlapped with the larger organisation. If I recall correctly at least one anarchist minister was an FAI member as well as a CNT member and the FAI did not oppose anarchist participation in the popular front.

I don’t think that the political shift was down to personal betrayal. I think it was down to the impasse which anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism faced when confronted with an actual social revolution. They had no plan, no strategy, no understanding of how a revolution could actually proceed. In those circumstances, the slide into the popular front was always likely.

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53. Garibaldy - February 19, 2009

Mark,

I’m not really sure how I came across as presenting the Marxist version of the state as an anarchist idea. And I have read State and Revolution, thank you, although I’m fairly sure it’s an idea you can find in Marx and Engels as well.

Eamonn,

Hadn’t heard that. Fascinating to see that story about Dodie McGuinnes, and especially her decision to go to the equality agency.

Has anyone seen any reports or heard anything about last night’s Belafst book launch? I noted a report on Mick Hall’s blog that said the book did address The WP and DL as part of the tradition referred to, which might suggest the quote in the post title is indeed genuine, although we are far from certain.

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54. yourcousin - February 20, 2009

And Jesus wept when he saw that still one more leftist thread descended into recriminations over the Spanish Civil War. Anarchism is dead and Socialism and Communism still continue to produce demagogues apace. I regret the former and simply shake my head at the latter.

But since we’re digging up historical bones. Eventually the CNT compromised and sent two ministers into government. And on a side note of that, at one point when Madrid was threatened early on the government all fled except for those anarchist ministers who stayed and fought on. The FAI was historically “pure” anarchists who believed in small actions by committed groups of revolutionaries to inspire the masses onto social revolution. The CNT was the anarcho-syndicalist union. The FAI was set up by devout anarchists when they became concerned about what they saw as reformist elements in the CNT. This led to a situation that to hold a trusted position within the CNT, one had to belong to the FAI. Something along the lines of the Volunteers and the IRB. But the control wasn’t complete or entirely coercive as individuals might vote for a rising as an individual FAI man and vote against the same rising as a representative of the his syndicate within the CNT.

The anarchists had compromised before and let their members vote in the election in ’36 mainly to secure the release of the prisoners from the rising in ’34 and other actions. When the Anarchists had waged an abstentionist campaign previously the Right had rode to victory. As for Dan’s assertions,

Again, the CNT did not solely represent the anarchist movement (nor were they the only organisation as Mark suggests, there was the FAI). I disown them because of their shit politics, with my legs completely still. No anarchist joins government

I would say that those individuals probably did more for their class and their cause than all of us on this stupid web site (no offense meant WBS, just rhetorical flourish) all put together. As for Mark P,

I don’t think that the political shift was down to personal betrayal. I think it was down to the impasse which anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism faced when confronted with an actual social revolution. They had no plan, no strategy, no understanding of how a revolution could actually proceed. In those circumstances, the slide into the popular front was always likely.

Let me be quite clear in this point. The Anarchists were the only ones attempting to create a social revolution. The only collectives run by the UGT were ones set up before the war. In estates where there were landowners the labourers were simply paid the same rate as before the war, but this came from the local committees (later replaced by the Communists). The CNT set collectives in Barcelona which ran somewhat well until the Communists natinalized them later in the war. I believe Sam Dolgoff wrote a book on it, The Anarchist Collectives: Workers’ Self-Management in the Spanish Revolution, 1936-1939 . They knew all too well how the revolution would proceed and they also knew what would happen to them if the Republic as a bourgeois democracy triumphed. They did not differentiate between the two (Franco vs. Republicans) though as we’ve noted they did compromise. For them it was social revolution or nothing.

We should note and always remember that the Socialists had cooperated with the Primo dictatorship and been a government partner in the First Republic. during these times they had no qualms about sending troops against insurgent workers and peasants. So there was a good deal of mistrust there as the socialists only came to extra parliamentary actions in the uprising of ’34.

As for the Communists. They had a paltry following until the lower middles classes scared stiff of Anarchist terrors in the early days of the war (that whole social revolution thing) thronged to it and Stalin started supplying arms and advice to the Republican cause. Also the fact that they took orders from Moscow and until late in the game (until Russia and France became allies they thoroughly derided the Popular Front notion). They soon came to control a majority of the socialist camp though there were some hold outs. And while the International brigades, air and armor provided by Russia were essential to holding out they also quashed every dissenting thought that they could and that they only viewed a military victory as running parallel to a total victory for the Comunist party. I would differentiate this from the earlier Anarchist terrors as one was the acts of the masses while the other was a methodical attack against internal enemies in the Republican camp with no other goal than to tighten Communist control. There seems to be the myth that the Communists once the fight against Franco was won would proceed with social revolution in due order. That is not the case. They articulated that they were fighting solely for a bourgeois parliamentary democracy, were against further collectivizations, actually privatized bread distribution in Catalonia and attempted to wipe out all forms of political thought which they couldn’t control. And that’s their business to do so, I mean they’re Communists that’s what they do.

I mean if we’re going to go down this road, could we please simply get our facts straight regardless of which side one comes down on?

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55. Mark P - February 20, 2009

Youcousin:

You say little that I actually disagree with. The CNT was the only mass organisation attempting to make a revolution on the ground. That’s undeniable. My point was that, while entirely sincere in that attempt and while their rank and file militants did heroic work on the ground, they had no strategy which could have carried through a successful revolution.

At root the issue is that they rejected the idea of taking state power, of creating a working class state in opposition to the bourgeois state apparatus. Instead they tried to coexist with it, to ignore it, to work around it, and this impasse rather than some subjective betrayal by its leading elements pushed them into supporting and then joining the popular front government.

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56. yourcousin - February 20, 2009

Mark P,
Well we’re in agreement on this, but your last post is different than #52. And also I would argue that their collectivization of industry and agriculture had the makings of a successful revolution in it (ie a Spanish Soviet system). Due to circumstances, it didn’t work. Mores the pity…

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57. Mick Hall - February 20, 2009

Your cousin and others

Apologies for helping to divert this thread, I suppose Dan’s absolute certainty reminded me far to much of myself as a young man and I did not like what I saw reflected back.

I basically agree with posts 54 and 55, I feel this[below] from Mark P is a pretty astute analysis of the overall anarchist position back then.

“At root the issue is that they rejected the idea of taking state power, of creating a working class state in opposition to the bourgeois state apparatus. Instead they tried to coexist with it, to ignore it, to work around it, and this impasse rather than some subjective betrayal by it’s leading elements pushed them into supporting and then joining the popular front government.”

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58. Dan - February 23, 2009

Mick, what a **** you are.

Queer that criticising Stalinist actions in the Revolution would cause such umbrage; do you look fondly on a time when your politics weren’t in the dustbin?

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59. Garibaldy - February 23, 2009

Dan,

Please keep things fraternal. Argument is more than welcome. Childish insults aren’t. As for Mick’s politics, if you had read him in this thread, never mind elsewhere over several years, you would know he is not what you would call a Stalinist.

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60. Dan - February 23, 2009

A prerequisite for fraternalism is comradeship; I see no comrades here.

And claiming anarchism’s downfall was its own, is revisionism at its best. Someone that tows the party line, decades on, despite history showing that to be a farce, rings my Bolshevik alarm.

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61. Garibaldy - February 23, 2009

Ok, well try and be civil at least then.

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62. ejh - February 23, 2009

And claiming anarchism’s downfall was its own, is revisionism at its best.

Well, not entirely. There were many weaknesses in Spanish anarchism and not all were those involving a lack of political purity. They were good streetfighters but not, in the main, good soldiers. They were certainly persecuted by the Communists but they themselves were guilty of an awful lot of killings. There’s an anarchist view of the world which onvolves the anarchists always being oppressed by everybody else: it tends to ignore the extent to which anarchist actions affect people other than themelves.

the revolution was the first on a country wide scale of collectivisation, where workers utilised soviets and ran the land, with greater production than in capitalist society

I wouldn’t accept that claim without reliable figures.

We “prattle on about collectivisation” because radical social change occurred in tandem with a fierce fascist war

Well, up to a point. It occurred, to a degree, behind the lines in the immediate aftermath of the point at which the fascist advances were stopped (the Barcelona uprising, the advance across Aragón). Much of what happened in that brief period was exciting: much was also indefensible (a large proportion of the killing of political enemies took place very early in the war).

We don’t really know how the collectives, which didn’t necessarily always work so well, would have managed in the long run. My guess is that their degree of productivity compared to Western large-scale capitalist farming would have been poor. You’ll not get many takers for collectivisation among Aragonese farmers nowadays. The factories might have done better.

I can’t stress enough about anarchists and anarchism, they’re not so much without law as a law unto themselvs. To themselves, this may sem like freedo, but to the other people with whom they share the land and the towns, it can mean an imposition and a liability.

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63. Dan - February 23, 2009

No socialist should be a good “soldier”; to reject illegitimate authority is what makes us what we are. How can ill equipped and undertrained militias be compared? They fared worse than organised military, but only because of the limitation applied upon them.

Won’t accept my statement regarding better production in collectivisation, but will peddle baseless apologism for Stalinist murder like “anarchists killed a lot of people”; a bit of consistency is necessary.

“There’s an anarchist view of the world which onvolves the anarchists always being oppressed by everybody else”; what? Where on earth do you get this rubbish? The anarchist view of the world is that self imposed power is inheritantly wrong, whether a bourgeois democracy or a fascist dictatorship. Communists share these ideals aswell. It’s only the 57 varieties of state capitalism that has distorted this view.

More vague declarations of ‘facts’; who were these political enemies that were killed? And how is that relevant to later events? You believe that a surplus production would be more productive, than a based on needs production, and you are a communist? If you are, based on your logic, because communism doesn’t exist in the world, are you yourself redundant by the fact, right now, no one wants that? Or in retrospect, is it a ridiculous attempt at making a point?

Anarchists are without law, law being authoritative rule set by an the state; do you have any clue what anarchism is? You evidently don’t, if you believe we wish to make imposition and liability amongst people.

Are you a wind up merchant?

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64. Mark P - February 23, 2009

Dan:

Perhaps you could do with having a bit of a lie down? Or at the very least taking a deep breath and getting your self-righteousness under control?

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65. ejh - February 23, 2009

will peddle baseless apologism for Stalinist murder like “anarchists killed a lot of people”

Can anybody understand this?

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66. WorldbyStorm - February 23, 2009

Dan, seriously, I’ve asked you once and you keep upping the ante… this is meant to be somewhere people from different viewpoints can engage not insult… there’s no one here who is an apologist for Stalin, least of all Mick. Quite the opposite… I’d ask you to apologies, but somehow I don’t think you will, so in the meantime I’ll refer you to our moderation policy at the top of the page and should you feel unable to adhere to it I’d ask you to leave…

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67. yourcousin - February 24, 2009

ejh,
There were many problems with the entire Spanish left, let alone any numbers any particular “ism” and that’s leaving out the “ists” all together.

As for comparing the early Anarchist terrors with later Communist repression. I feel that neither one should be defended but that they are inherently different and should be recognized as such. The Anarchists, especially the rural ones were always fairly millenial in their approach to things so that there was very little grey area in things. So that when it came time to pronounce the libretarian communist utopia they lined up the reactionary elements (plus a few others) and shot them. Not good, but certainly this kind of approach should be differentiated from the Communist persecutions where Republicans denounced one another to secret courts and men just back from the front were arrested and shot for political reasons that were not reasons at all, just potential obstacles to total Communist control of a losing side.

As for whether or not the collectives would’ve worked long term, we’ll never know so it hardly benefits anyone to speculate. And I would guess that anyone’s collective farming attempts from that era in contrast to “Western large scale capitalist farming” would’ve been poor. That’s not a strictly Anarchist problem.

As for the spanish Anarchists being a law unto themselves (And I say this doubting whether I could’ve have made peace with the them). Better to be a law unto ones self than to be servants of dictatorships both in Spain and abroad.

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68. Dan - February 24, 2009

ejh, your response to Stalin’s quelling is “anarchists killed people aswell”; can you not see how ridiculous a retort that is?

There is a time for civility, but not amongst ideological fruitloops. There’s an awful lot of people struggling with basic socialist fundamentals (‘communists’ don’t want to live in anarchy? Really?), and in this day and age, that’s simply not on. Afraid the paradox of authoritarian communism has finally imploded, and the remnants are firmly in the bin.

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69. ejh - February 24, 2009

I can hear the whirring from here.

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70. Mark P - February 24, 2009

Dan:

Given that you are an advocate for a movement of perhaps 40 activists in this country, you’ll find that quite a lot of people probably don’t agree with what you assume to be “basic socialist fundamentals”. You might even find that quite a few people regard anarchists as “ideological fruitloops”. I would not suggest however that this means that everyone else should be less than civil when dealing with you.

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71. Dan - February 24, 2009

Oh dear, the numbers game. ’cause the untold numerical strength of the republican movement really made that successful eh?

I don’t expect Trots, Leninist, Stalinist or social democratic goons to understand socialist fundamentals; you need to be a socialist for that.

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72. ejh - February 24, 2009

That’s somebody told.

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73. Mark P - February 24, 2009

Dan:

I am not playing “the numbers game” in the sense of arguing that anarchists are tiny and are therefore wrong. That would be unreasonable.

I am making reference to the tiny number of people who share your views about “basic socialist fundamentals” in response to a typically intemperate and arrogant post from you arguing that you don’t need to be civil to “ideological fruitloops” who don’t agree with you about those “basic socialist fundamentals”. On that issue the tiny and marginal nature of the anarchist movement is actually relevant because it means that your post is an argument that you need not be civil to or actually engage with the arguments of anyone but a few dozen co-thinkers.

That’s your right of course, but let me suggest that taking such an approach won’t do much to rectify the isolation and weakness of the anarchist movement. It also helps explains why you are so ready to use argument by amalgam, assuming that everyone who disagrees with you here agrees with each other and has some kind of desire to produce apologetics for Stalinism.

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74. Dan - February 24, 2009

Mark, do you like irony?

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75. Mick Hall - February 24, 2009

Dan

Speaking as more off an ‘Old English Spangles’ than a fruitloop, I would be interested to know why you are so certain that you are correct and the rest of us are so beyond the pale. This is a serious question not a piss take.

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76. Dan - February 24, 2009

Because all forms of representative democracy have been utter failures, even more so in the case of Bolshevism. It doesn’t work.

In contrast, risings where workers have procured their complete freedom have been libertarian communist in nature.

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77. WorldbyStorm - February 24, 2009

Hmmm… seems to me that the history is a little patchy on successful long lasting instances of workers achieving ‘their complete freedom’ and perhaps not quite long enough in terms of elapsed time to make such absolute determinations, and I say that as a convinced anti-Stalinist. BTW I’d strongly disagree that all forms of representative democracy have been utter failures. They tend to be a bit of an improvement on other government/regime/state types. So, perhaps flawed, perhaps failing, indeed, but ‘utter failure’? Nah. Don’t buy it.

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78. Mick Hall - February 24, 2009

Dan

I was once chatting to a baggage handler in a bar near a big north american airport; and he said to me the best you can hope from a politician is when they leave office; the country, city/whatever is no worse off than when they entered office.

A bit defeatist perhaps, but all the same to my mind a pretty intelligent judgment, so I am not completely hostile to what you write in your first paragraph.

However your second paragraph is for me far to sweeping, not least because workers have never procured there ‘complete freedom’; and even if one concedes there were times when they came close, these experiments never lasted long enough to make any sound ultimate judgment on.

Unlike for example the Bolshevik experiment which lasted decades, long enough for socialist like myself to conclude that it ended in failure and nothing can be gained by repeating it. Indeed I would go further and claim that it was Lenin’s insistence on the methodology of democratic centralism that was at the heart of this failure.

Surly among the many reasons why the anarchist experience in Spain is important for us to understand, is in the end, like the left as a whole the anarchists also failed to find away to over come their political differences without a split or lessening their core beliefs.

Just some thoughts, you probably think I’m all over the place but there you go.

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79. WorldbyStorm - February 24, 2009

I’d broadly echo what Mick says, particularly about democratic centralism.

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80. Dan - February 24, 2009

From an theoretical basis, libertarian communism allows for worker conduits that means they can exact control over their immediate surroundings; workers’ councils, communes, direct democracy. This has translated to complete freedom as far as what that phrase entails; free from the bonds that are endured under capitalism, both economically and socially. I speak of the Paris Commune, soviets that have been declared across the world, including ol’ Munster, collectivised Spain, and so on.

The bastardisation of Marxist thought (authoritarianism, whether by Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin or Mao) is bourgeois, and acts accordingly; representative democracy, with the ruling class being replaced by a vanguard, your self appointed intelligentsia of ‘workers’, who arrogantly believe they are fit for the task of rule. Likewise, this translated accordingly in reality; a dictatorship over the proletariat of the fiercest kind, subjecting workers to possibly the worst conditions seen in the 20th century, certainly rivalling Hitler’s regime.

In the same time “experiments” didn’t have the courtesy to fail, Bolshevism and all its offshoots were proven to be bogus.

That anarchists never betrayed their principals is precisely why it remains the only way forward for workers, for it will never compromise on their utter control.

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81. Mark P - February 24, 2009

Dan (post 74):

Only when it’s use is accompanied by a modicum of wit.

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82. Mark P - February 24, 2009

As for “the anarchists never betrayed their principals”, that’s a statement which can only be made believable by defining all those who did betray their principles (like the CNT) out of anarchism. See under “no true Scotsman…”

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83. Dan - February 24, 2009

“Only when it’s use is accompanied by a modicum of wit.”

That absence explains why you didn’t find the irony in the comparing of one insignificant sect against another, then.

The rank and file by and large, did reject it. They, having seen the effects of frontism after a period of time, came to realise the futility of class collaboration. The key is when mistakes have been made, much has been taken from that so as to not repeat. Others however, never learn.

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