for lefties too stubborn to quit
More David Norris headlines in Thursdays Irish Daily Mail regarding a 2010 interview he did with the Jason O’Toole of the Irish Daily Mail.
The Mail front page is here
As with many of O’Tooles interviews it was covered here .
https://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/05/11/the-norris-presidential-campaign-kicks-off/
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The Cedar Lounge Revolution
NORRIS in TOMORROW’s MAIL : Then I also said that there was a distinction between paedophilia and the classical Greek idea of pederasty, where in Plato’s Symposium and these sort of books you’d find that an older man will take a younger man under his wing and introduce him to life.
Well, I said that would be much more preferable to the kind of ignorance
and stupidity and fumbling that I was exposed to.
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NORRIS ON CONSENT:
No, I wouldn’t believe in that.
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Age of consent, rather than “consent”, surely?
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NORRIS ON DRUGS AND ABORTION:
I would be liberal. I think abortion is always a sad thing and I don’t
believe in these later-term abortions and this type of stuff, but I do not believe the fertilised egg in its early stages is a full and complete human being and I never have believed it. I think it’s a potential human being and that is a difference.
Drugs, of course, should be legalised
because the one thing that will stop dealers is to destroy the financial
motivation.
So the thing to do would be to legalise them and make them boring.
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Open letter from David Norris on foot of the above:
Dear Supporter,
Over the last number of days quotes, opinions and beliefs on a range of societal issues have been attributed to me, some correct and others grossly inaccurate.
To combat any further confusion or interpretation of my position on these matters I have personally outlined below my opinions on the subjects raised.
As the longest serving Senator of the State I fight on a daily basis for a better society for all, introducing legislation and structures to support the most vulnerable citizens of our country. My record is testament to my commitment in this area.
With your continued support I will carry on my campaign to become President of Ireland, with even greater and renewed impetus, determination and strength; A President who will represent its people.
Legalising Drugs
Living in inner-city Dublin, I am acutely aware of the harmful affects that the drug culture has had on my community and wider society. The blunt instrument of criminalisation is not working because of the vast profits it generates for organised crime. No country can face this problem on its own. I believe that there needs to be a European led global response. Hard as it is to accept, my view is that the welfare of the community, including the victims of drug abuse may be better served by having access to quality controlled, legally prescribed drugs.
What is your view on prostitution?
My views and opinions on prostitution have always been directed towards the welfare and protection of the women involved and the introduction of whatever means necessary to ensure their safety and well-being.
What is your view on incest?
Incest is morally and medically wrong. It is dangerous and illegal and justifiably so.
What is your view on abortion?
The issue of abortion is always a sensitive, personal and emotive issue in our society. I believe that access to information and education is the true champion of reducing the instance of abortion. My hope is that both sides in this difficult moral debate will respect each other’s differences.
The Catholic Church
I have very many Catholic friends and as a devout Christian, I have the greatest respect for the commitment and faith shown by many people, the length and breath of the country. My criticisms are not aimed at the honest decent men and women of faith, who have played a significant role in the founding and development of our country, but rather with the Vatican as a political entity and nstitution and its interference in matters of state. Also as a gay man, I find the Pope’s teachings on homosexuality negative and ill-informed.
Child Protection
I abhor child abuse in all its forms: psychological, sexual or emotional. I have always campaigned for Children’s rights and was central in introducing the appointment of guardian ad litem (mandatory legal representation for children) to child protection cases in court to ensure that the rights of the child are properly represented. I have also spoken out strongly in the Seanad on the recent Roscommon Child abuse case and on all reports into child abuse. My record in this area speaks for itself.
Cathal O’Searcaigh
I have only met Cathal O’Searcaigh once on Wicklow St. in Dublin, I have no other connection or relationship to him. I am a strong believer in natural justice and if the allegations that were made in the documentary are true this is a matter for the authorities to investigate and if necessary to prosecute if a crime has beendemonstrated. I feel that the trial by media that took place around this issue would have frustrated any proceedings and that a court of law was the place to have these discussions and not on afternoon chat shows.
Age of consent
In my view, the people best equipped to make these difficult moral and legal decisions are the judiciary. Legislation based on the principle of consent empowers the judiciary.
Consent based on age, has resulted in many instances in the inappropriate criminal prosecution of minors.
This is the approach that I would personally support.
Pederasty
Pederasty is a term describing sexual relations between an older and a younger man in ancient Greece. My experience as a young man in Dublin was that there were no social outlets for gay men. I was left in ignorance by society and didn’t consciously meet another gay male until I was in my 20s. The subject was surrounded by silence and fear. Then I read Plato’s symposium, in which there is a discussion about the nature of love. The greatest philosopher ever argued that physical love was the gateway to spiritual love, very movingly it concludes with the most beautiful young man in Athens, Alcibiades admitting that he has offered himself sexually to Socrates in return for sharing in Socrates’ wisdom. This text was preserved throughout the middle ages. I saw this enlightening approach and experience as a much more interesting and preferable introduction to sexuality than my own experience. That is my own personal opinion.
Spectrum of justice
As a legislator and a citizen, I have always upheld and supported the law. I believe in justice delivered proportionately, across the spectrum of the relevant crime. Sexual abuse is always wrong, but as in all crimes, there is a spectrum and this is appropriately recognised in sentencing policy and throughout Irish law.
Media Reporting of Abuse
My comments relating to the impact of media reporting on the victims of sex abuse being worse than the actual abuse have been misconstrued and have caused hurt, for which I am saddened. I have always spoken out on behalf of the victims of abuse and feel that anyone that has suffered any form of abuse, must report it to the authorities and the perpetrators should face the full rigours of the law. I would like to think that people would judge me on my track record on child protection and my political contribution in this area.
Every candidate in every election has personal opinions, which they must set aside in order to fulfil their public duties and I intend to be no different and to reflect the broad opinions of a proud Irish nation.
Senator David Norris
9th June 2011
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Good Twitter comment this morning from Gavan Titley:
“Why doesn’t the postmodern elasticity largely granted by the Irish media to #Corribcops ‘jokes’ apply to @SenDavidNorris ‘s opinions?”
On the subject of sexual relations across the age divide, I’m trying hard to remember if the same moral outrage really kicked in over Iris Robinson’s affair last year? Same deal, older person taking younger person under the wing sexually. Actual in Iris’ case, hypothetical in Norris’ case. But of course one situation fits nicely with laddish fantasy of MILFs and cougars, whereas the other is just a disgusting perversion of innocent youth, isn’t it?? I tend to see the current Norris debate at its core as being about societal attitudes to homosexuality, rather than any of the other side issues.
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I would guess that mainstream opinion in the South would be wary of criticising anything our DUP cousins do, good or bad.
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The guards comments were very distasteful, no doubt about that. However when people start to express views like Norris has about Paedophilia, and accusing the media who report on it as “gutter press” who dehumanize them as beasts and perverts then they are going to react strongly.
I have no doubt that if Robinson had been having an affair with a 15 yr old rather than a 19 year old, then yes it there would have been as much outrage and hopefully she would have been charged with statutory rape, she was not though. If she said the exact same things as Norris did, then I have no doubt that she would have been as much the centre of a similar outcry.
Norris’s opinions are absolutely shocking, especially given the large scale abuse that has gone on in Ireland or maybe that is Christine Buckley being hysterical?
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I agree with a lot of Norris’ opinions, and am particularly pleased on his brave (but really commonsensical) attitude to ending drug prohibition.
However, I cant see most of his opinions getting much traction in the wider country.
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“However, I cant see most of his opinions getting much traction in the wider country.”
That was a comment echoed on VB’s Tonight show lat night by a Labour muppet on the panel. his comment was that while he personally agreed with many of Norris’ positions that he couldn’t see the rural population (he quickly retracted the rural qualifier) going along with it. So much for brave and inspirational leadership from our established political class, yet again, long live the focus group. Whereas Boyd Barrett was (yet again) the polished voice of reason, unafraid to lead.
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Was the Labour muppet Colm Keaveney? He seems to be a firm believer in a strict urban/rural divide on social issues.
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CMK, it was his Galway West counterpart Derek Nolan.
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LATC I was trying to avoid making out that I was an enlightened intellectual and that most of the country were reactionary uneducated savages.
However, I think its fair to say in what is a fairly conservative country some of his views (especially how they could be spun by opponents or opposed media outlets) wont go down too well.
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Ramzi, sure we’re all products of the enlightenment here on CLR 🙂 Your observation is correct of course. It’s just a hobby horse of mine, expecting politicians to provide leadership rather than pandering to lowest common denominator sentiment.
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Agreed.
I’ve got particularly frustrated at that in the context of the shameful abandonment of public sector workers to the hounds of the Sindo in Ireland or right-wing press in general in the UK.
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This is completely anecdotal and unscientific but I live in a pretty conservative rural constituency and the general opinion among people I’ve spoken to about it seems to be that Norris is being blackguarded, I haven’t met anyone who seriously thinks he’s a supporter of paedophilia. I think this whole smear campaign might backfire in the long run though I suppose the problem is that it will give County Councils an excuse not to support him. I think he’s conducted himself very well in the face of all this nonsense.
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Can I, not for the first time, object to the use of the term “muppet” to denote somebody uninspiring are dull? Real Muppets aren’t like that at all.
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Waters has another piece on the coverage of Norris in todays Irish Times..
Norris’s fans in the media keep public in the dark
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0610/1224298690294.html
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He really is a hoor for the completely off the wall comparison. I remember his defence of lovable shotgun wielding Padraig Nally pointing out that if Nally had been a homosexual all the trendy liberals would have defended his right to shoot someone to death in his yard. Why but of course.
There’s also something slightly sickening about seeing someone who’s been going on and on about how the liberal media are engaged in a conspiracy against the catholic church by highlighting its role in covering up paedophilia trying to put the boot into someone whose offence in this matter is purely verbal.
Norris is not a public moralist. The likes of Sean Brady who have been proved to have intervened in preventing the victims of paedophiles seeking the recourse of the law and other senior churchmen who aided paedophiles by moving them from one parish to another remain in public life and regularly hold forth on how other people should conduct their private lives.
Woeful hateful nonsense. He sounds a bit like Paddy Hillery at the FF Ard Fheis, “Ye can have Christine Buckley, but ye can’t have David Norris as well.” And I don’t feel his article is exactly brimming with respect for Christine Buckley either.
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I agree that David Norris has been blackguarded – and he has faced this attack honestly and head on. However his idealised interpretation of Ancient Greek pederasty (at least what we know it it) seems to me to be way off the mark.
The whole literature around the practice including Plato (and even Foucault recognised it as ‘problematised’ within that literature itself) smells to me like a systematic cultural reinforcement and idealisation of a power relation. Isn’t it more likely that in a slave owning society, where women where considered for the most part sub-human, that older aristocratic males should seek to intellectually and bodily enforce domination of the younger men of their class, and that this practice should be reproduced from generation to generation?
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I tend to agree. I think he’s got far too idealistic a view of it. That said I don’t think that that reflects poorly on him per se. I think that we find that much much more broadly a characteristic of the totem like function of the ‘classical’ as a cultural glue in Western societies – even if the actual details are often glossed over.
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And of course the classical Greek, especially the Platonic, has been constructed as a foreshadowing of an essentially ‘Christian’ Europe going all the way back to the Renaissance, just as the Persian tyrants are constructed implicitly as foreshadowing the Muslim tendency towards despotism.
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