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“Sinn Féin simply means nothing to the bulk of people in the South.” July 10, 2009

Posted by Garibaldy in Irish Politics, Sinn Féin.
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In this recent post, World By Storm looked at some of the problems facing Provisional Sinn Féin, and discussed Eoin Ó Broin’s analysis of his party’s election results. Ó Broin has on a number of occasions written articles questioning the direction and focus of his party. Now we have another candidate from the recent elections, and a higher profile one, offering her thoughts. Toiréasa Ferris surprised lots of people with how well she did in the EU elections, although she then expressed some doubts about a career in politics. She is exactly the sort of face that is needed if her party are to make the leap forward that they are seeking in the south. So what does she have to say?

Something has been bothering her for some time she says – “As a party, what are we at and where are we going?” She notes that activists

the length and breadth of this country put in Trojan work over the last few months. The anger of ordinary citizens was palpable on every doorstep and the kind of economic policies we have long called for were not just being considered but demanded by the people. This should have been our election but it wasn’t.

Being what those from across the border like to call a nordie, I always blanch when I see the south referred to as the country, and the fact that it could appear in a column in An Phoblacht demonstrates the extent to which an unconscious partitionism is deeply-rooted in the south. I’d be surprised if the paper under Danny Morrison would have published this wording, although someone may come along to correct me. And of course the phrase illustrates the biggest problem that Ferris says her and her colleagues face in the south.

If we are honest with ourselves we will admit that the majority of those who we need to put a 1 or a 2 after our logo on a ballot paper unfortunately see us as a Northern-based party, irrelevant to the everyday concerns of people in the 26 Counties. Voters are unclear about what we stand for, which is not surprising as I’m sure many of us are starting to wonder about this also. We have been trying to appeal to too broad a spectrum of people and as a result have lost touch with our base. For this reason, amongst others, we were seen as neither a credible alternative to the Government nor a party of protest.
After more than a decade working for the party down this end of the country, it hurts to say it but the fact is – Sinn Féin simply means nothing to the bulk of people in the South. We therefore need to stop asking ourselves ‘Why don’t more people vote for us?’ and start asking ‘What must we do to win people’s support?’
This debate needs to take place now. It’s more than four weeks since the election and we, the activists, are waiting. The party is suffering an identity crisis – what are we trying to achieve in the 26 and what do we stand for besides a united Ireland

It is probably never a good sign when a high-profile member who enjoys the clear backing of the leadership says that party activists are unclear as to what their organisation stands for. Her critique bears some similarity to that of Ó Broin. To paraphrase it, it is that in the hunt for more votes, the party has lost what made it distinctive, with the result being that voters who might be expected to look to it have looked elsewhere. Unspoken here too is also the fact that with the peace process having bedded in, the party has lost its Unique Selling Point and also its newsworthiness and some of its dynamism. However, whereas Ó Broin advocates a clear shift to the left, Ferris is offering a different solution that has more in common with Eamonn Gilmore the Leader of the Labour Party than Eamonn Gilmore The Workers’ Party TD.

Abstract talk of ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ is meaningless to ordinary people. We need to translate the broad terms ‘republicanism’ and ‘socialism’ into a more modern language of ‘decency, of looking out for each other, of a sense of community’ – a language ordinary people understand.
Let’s get clear on who our potential supporters are and give them meaningful reasons to vote Sinn Féin.

I’m not sure that when class and political contradictions have been sharpened by the economic crisis and the government spending cuts that ‘Left’ and ‘Right’ are as abstract as Ms. Ferris thinks, but this passage gives an interesting insight into the driving force here. Although she talks about the need to build a party around councillors who are community activists and not politicians, this strikes me as the language of Blairism.

The recent Ard Fheis motion on bloodsports and constant ‘rights talk’ by our national spokespeople show the party to be out of touch with its base. We need to involve councillors and local organisers who have their finger on the pulse of public opinion in the formation of policy and in setting the direction of publicity.
We need to carve out a political space for ourselves that is distinct from that of the other parties – and we need to articulate that politics with confidence and conviction.
If we have learnt anything over the last few months it is that we need to change the way we communicate. People have a short attention span and are not interested in abstract ideas or policy details. We need a simple message communicated in language people understand. I’ve written nearly 1,000 words and I bet some of you remember that I was at the cinema and I’m wondering what we as a party stand for but most won’t remember exactly what suggestions have been put forward. Don’t worry as I’m sure you will after your second read.
Remember the passion, the self-confidence, the enthusiasm there was in Sinn Féin at the time many of us joined? We need to get back that self-belief.

I think there is more than a hint of confusion in this section, and it might shed some light as to why it is that some of the passion and self-confidence seems to have drained over the last decade. Not only is the party caught between two stools, but so is the article. Note the bit about people not being interested in policy details. Yet at the last general election, it is pretty universally believed that Adams’ inability to deliver on policy detail as opposed to rights talk on vital issues like the health service cost his party dear in terms of credibility. She says that there is a need to carve out a distinctive space but at the same time both abstraction and detail must be eschewed.

She says that people are unlikely to remember the proposals put forward. Reading this article, I was struck by the lack of concrete proposals. For example, she says “Let’s get clear on who our potential supporters are and give them meaningful reasons to vote Sinn Féin.” Yet she never mentions who these people might be. She doesn’t identify the areas in which her party has something distinctive to say, nor even say what its distinctive message is. Decency is something used by everyone from Brown to Cameron, Hume to Trimble. It hardly cuts it.

I would though agree with her basic analysis, which is that her party no longer stands out in the public mind in the south as representing anything particularly distinctive. If we look at the successes and failures of equivalent sized parties (at least in terms of the Dáil if not council seats, where PSF has a larger number than these equivalents) the thing that made them stand out was a strong and distinctive message. For The WP of the 1980s, it was class politics; no-one can be in any doubt where the priority of the Greens lie; the Progressive Democrats had a clear thatcherite message, even if it got them rejected and led to their downfall. 10 years ago, perhaps even five, the Provos had a distinctive message – they were the hardline party of a united Ireland, and they looked like serious players, an impression heightened by their being on the TV about the North almost every night, and meeting governments, US Presidents, and people like Mandela. Now, Adams increasingly looks out of touch, in the south, though not the north where he maintains his popular touch. A united Ireland is so far off as to be irrelevant to the party’s popular image. The TDs have not been effective performers. We don’t even need to look back to The WP or the PDs for how small parties can make a bigger splash through effective Dáil performers, we need only look at Joe Higgins. The PSF TDs have had nowhere near the same impact.

I am not saying PSF faces a crisis. I don’t think it does. Its position in the north is assured, it is likely to maintain the rough number of TDs it has (plus or minus one or two), while its local council base seems safe. What is happening here is not a party in crisis but rather the shattering of expectations that had risen way too high. And what that has done is cause some people within the organisation to panic. Especially, might I suggest on the basis of some of the comments quoted above, some of the people who joined more recently expecting to be part of a serious player in politics in the south. With no distinctive economic or environmental ideology, it might be that some of these people prove hard to hold if say Labour grows in strength over the next decade. Then there might really be a crisis.

Comments»

1. Wednesday - July 10, 2009

Activists did put in trojan work the length and breadth of this country. There was an election in the north too, remember?

Frankly I’m kind of amazed at the amount of attention this article has received in the 24 hours since it was published. It’s not very different to a number of other opinion pieces that have appeared in the paper since the 2007 election. I guess maybe people were just expecting Toiréasa to be the next leadership mouthpiece, so they’re surprised when she appears not to be.

Mixed feelings about the article itself, which I may return to when I have a bit more time.

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2. Garibaldy - July 10, 2009

Ah but if you look at what follows the reference to the length and breadth of the country it clearly refers to the south. Economics played next to no part in the northern EU election. As usual.

My own interest in it lies in the absence of concrete proposals. And – in a bit of Kremlinology admittedly – it seems to suggest that the leadsership has decided not to go down the more vocally left route, but rather to move more towards the centre. As a leftist btw, it’s interesting that her vision of the party here is very much electorally based as opposed to involvement in trade unions, community groups etc.

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3. Wednesday - July 10, 2009

Ah but if you look at what follows the reference to the length and breadth of the country it clearly refers to the south.

What follows it clearly refers to the south. But that doesn’t mean she meant that it was only activists in the south who did trojan work. If it was a 26 County-only election I very much doubt you would see that terminology used. I’m inclined to think you’re just jumping to conclusions you want to reach here (keeping in mind you did the same not too long ago over the issue of which MEP was elected first).

Although I don’t know her terribly well, from what I do know I would say this piece has her own fingerprints on it rather than those of the leadership. It’s just that she’s not really far removed from them politically.

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4. Garibaldy - July 10, 2009

Perhaps I am an oversensitive nordie. But that is what springs to mind the instant I see that, especially with no reference to the northern election.

I didn’t mean to give the impression that she was a front woman for someone who penned the piece. Just exactly what you say, that she is representative of leadership thinking. That makes it more interesting to me rather than less. That the younger generation coming up is more in line with the thinking of the current leadership than the stuff you see a lot of saying that the leadership is out of touch with the activists. I don’t believe that.

Nor is this intended to bash Ferris or her party, as hopefully the last paragraph shows. I think it is much stronger than even some within it are giving it credit for.

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5. Jim Monaghan - July 10, 2009

To put it bluntly she and others like her want a leftish FF. Avoid anything that alienates people like being against bloodsports.
This rush towards the centre, crowded with Gilmore and co. It must be very crowded. Don’t talk about socialism. FF will tell the small farmers you intend to nationalise the farms without compensation. Don’t talk about abortion FF and COIR will say you want it compulsory and maybe stretched to post natal.Don’t talk about anything controversial and that could be considered controversial you might upset someone or be misunderstood.
Be for good things (undefined) be against bad things (equally undefined).
Long live blairism,
Long live blandness.
Anyone remember the Robert Redford film “the candidate”

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6. WorldbyStorm - July 10, 2009

Can’t say about SF, but in DL the partitionist approach was very strong. The organisation rapidly shifted towards the South – okay, the bulk of the membership in the North remained with the WP after the split, but it was stunning nonetheless to see. And it really begged questions, such as where were leftists and progressives of that ilk meant to go? It was one of the things that contributed to my departure.

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7. Eamonn Dublin - July 10, 2009

The fact is that if you want a softish left-softish republican-middle of the road politics, you have that within sections of FF therefore why would the electorate go to SF when they can get the real thing from FF. SF has reached it political high point, similar to the votes the WP gained and to reach higher, they must follow the path of gilmore etc..,. Abandon the actual politics and play to the crowd. However, SF are weak on politics whereas the WP were very political and its unlikely that SF has the calibre of members to move down that path. In addition, that middle field of populist opportunists is now fully occupied by Labour, Liberal Fine Gaelers, progressive Fianna Failers and Finian McGrath (!!). The future for SF should be between one section, the opportunists joining FF and the leftish republicans joining Labour. Or they could just remain a nordie based party with a few supporters in the 26 counties.

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8. WorldbyStorm - July 10, 2009

That’s a gloomy outlook, isn’t it ED? Although the idea of actual leftish republicans joining Labour and what that might do to that party… hmmm… strokes chin thoughtfully…

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9. steve white - July 10, 2009

i don’t undestand she says sf should be different but then not left

is left not socialism.

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10. The Cappucino Kid - July 10, 2009

Is there really a vast number of people upset by SF calling for an ban on hare coursing?
Is her criticism of ‘rights’ code for – ‘lets go easy on defending immigrants or Travellers, that’s not very popular’?
To be fair to SF they have often been in the forefront of arguing against racism- is Ferris saying ‘that costs us votes’?

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11. WorldbyStorm - July 10, 2009

Yeah, The Cappucino Kid, that struck me too. It’s a pretty damn odd statement to make.

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Leveller on the Liffey - July 11, 2009

I took that reference to mean less abstract talk about rights without defining what it/politics means for Joe & Josephine Public on Hill 16.

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12. Mick Hall - July 10, 2009

Garibaldy, excellent article.

Clearly for many people in the aging leadership of SF, FF looks like an attractive birth. If SF carries on as it is or moves to the left, it will not be in government any time soon. [forget the Northern stitchup, it is not government but a farce] For men like Adams power is all, they have no interest these days in re-building from the base up and they control SF in an iron grip, so people like O’Broin will be given house room and allowed to publish an article or two in Republican News, but they will not be let near the Party’s levers of power.

The SF leadership who have few original ideas of their own, have seen how former Republicans jumped ship successfully from the WP and found a comfy birth in the leadership of the LP, and they may well be maneuvering to make a similar switch.

Some may feel this is far fetched, perhaps, but Adams and co are without principles or scruples, this is why they admired New Labour so much. One only has to listen to the language they use to understand that; but it is more than just that, SF have more to offer FF than the WP crew did the LP. If SF got into bed with FF, it would almost certainly bring the majority of northern nationalism with them, it is hard to see the SDLP staying out, as a merger with FF is already that party’s unspoken aim.

This would mean the ‘pan nationalist front’ instead of being a dead duck, would evolve into a single all Ireland political party. If Adams could pull this off, his reward would be what he has dreamed of to cap his career, the possibility of a share in ‘power’ in both parts of the island and a viable run at the Presidency of the southern state.

But first there must be an ‘open’ debate in the party before it does yet another about face, and we know from history Mr Adams idea of a debate is one he controls and only he gets to put the big idea. As someone has already said Ms Ferris did not put a single proposition forward in her piece, she knows better than to do that.

Just a thought.

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13. splinteredsunrise - July 10, 2009

Most of the discourse in the north is still about the equality agenda, which is at least relevant even if Gerryspeak on that issue does do my head in. But that doesn’t have a massive amount of purchase in the south, the same way as in the north you don’t really need an economic policy. Big-picture talk on rights and equality can’t really transfer southwards as a substitute for having your finger on the pulse.

I think it might be possible to overdo the Kremlinology, especially from a northern perspective where Tyrone republicans need a passport and visa to get into Belfast. It’s not an unreasonable article in the context of the debate, even if bits of it are vaguely phrased. The question for me is whether the debate leads anywhere or whether it’s just going to be yet another exercise in letting the activists blow off steam.

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14. kensei - July 10, 2009

Socialism is a dead end vote for SF and will never lead anywhere. They are a party of government in the North and in government you must be pragmatic. True Believers will never cope with that and it would shred the it Southern vote in any case. That’s aside from the problems with centralising, authoritarian socialism.

They still need to be decisively left, however, and if not left of Labour certainly a different kind of left. I’d prefer to see them go down a more decentralising, grass root democracy line. And more republican: they should be hammering FF on the blasphemy bill. I think Ferris is wrong on policy. Effectively good policy amounts to good ideas, and they need plenty of those. They will not be a big player in the South for a long time. They need to be focused on a few key areas and get some policies that people can associate with them; a vote for SF means more nurses; more police on the streets or more teachers. Ideally more clever but you get the idea. She is right in that they need to move away from talking about “rights” in the abstract to placing them in more practical fashion.

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15. Garibaldy - July 11, 2009

Eamon Dublin and WBS,

I can’t see people leaving for Labour in large numbers any time soon, but I wouldn’t rule it out in future if things do not improve; not though through a split but a drift. I would also say look at what happen every time Labour has swallowed a smaller group. Labour has been unchanged, the smaller group has become normal Labour members. I can’t see how that would change.

Cappucino Kid,

I found that hare coursing thing really weird myself, although the Irish News had a letter about it recently too. I find the argument that a move away from rights to detailed policy makes sense, but I can’t see how an argument that we need to stop avoiding rights talk and policy works myself. The immigrant and traveller thing is an interesting idea, but I’m not sure about it. If this article was written at 1.17 in the morning it might explain some of the contradictions.

Mick,

Thanks for the compliment. I think that the current leadership is far too tied up in its own identity to think of diluting it. It is already well on the way to being effectively the old Nationalist Party except better organised in the north. I think the scenario you outline is more likely to happen with younger than older people. Especially if they join with the expectation of taking council or Dáil seats. If that is your focus, moving to another party is easier I think.

SS,

I agree with much of what you say. I do think that this is an indication that the leadership sees its future closer to the centre left in the south than it stands now. I do think they are much more representative of the membership than some people would like us to believe.

Kensei,

I’d say the leadership shares your views to a great extent. I’m not sure about the decentralising thing you. I wonder to what extent this is in their minds associated with Éire Nua, and thus is bad. I also think that if you are aiming at public sector workers in Dublin, the last thing they want to hear about is moving to Galway. The more nurses thing is something they will probably go for, but in the south the other parties instantly scream tax rises, crazy economic policies etc. And it hurts. Perhaps more of Cameron’s former rhetoric about quality public services and efficiency might be what they go for.

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16. Blissett - July 11, 2009

As regards hare coursing lads, ye have no idea. i foolishly thought at the ard fheis that it was just a fluffy motion that would please a few animal rights folks.
But anyone who was canvassng will tell you this was an issue. I was canvassing in Cork City (city!!!) for sf and it was raised a number of times. The irish field ran a concerted campaign, and anyone in a harrer club or who did coursing, was armed with their facts and ready for us.
So dont underestimate that issue, may have cost a fistful of votes for the sake of nothing.

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17. Garibaldy - July 11, 2009

Thanks for that Blissett. Fascinating. I’d never have believed it would be such a big deal but there you go.

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18. Former sf - July 11, 2009

If ever an issue that is striaght up rift and wrong is a torture of a living animal if SF ain’t on side with that what we got?

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19. Leveller on the Liffey - July 11, 2009

Garibaldy: I always blanch when I see the south referred to as the country, and the fact that it could appear in a column in An Phoblacht demonstrates the extent to which an unconscious partitionism is deeply-rooted in the south. I’d be surprised if the paper under Danny Morrison would have published this wording, although someone may come along to correct me.

As someone who worked with Danny Morrison, may I correct you, Gari? I think Wednesday reads it right in Post 3 and you’re (mis)reading too much into how ‘country’ is used here.

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20. Drithleog - July 11, 2009

One thing I sense in what both Ó Broin and Ferris are saying is that the roadmap as prepared by Adams and Co is out of date and plain wrong and SF need a new roadmap and new navigators to boot. The trouble with that is that the focus shifts on what a party stands for to how it gets into power and in the process the former is forgotten about. This has certainly been the case with SF for some time and, notwithstanding what Ferris and others are saying, is almost certain to continue.

Garibaldy is right in many respects. SF are not in a position right now to compete with the Labour Party, who despite their own problems, outshine the the Provos in most debates and outrank them in numbers giving them more or less guaranteed airtime on every radio and television debate and of course in Dáil and Seanad debates.

Whether they like it or not SF have become a niche party in the Republic and are facing an identity crisis as a result. They are also facing the reality, as Ferris said, that most people in the Republic have a partitionist attitude, not on the question of national unity per se, but on the day to day life of “the country” and politics. It is no longer a case of the downtrodden northern brethern and the fourth green field but a neighbouring state / statelet with its own government, different issues and different priorities and in some cases a competitor for business, jobs, etc.

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21. Mick Hall - July 11, 2009

“It is already well on the way to being effectively the old Nationalist Party”

Garibaldy,

Yes, that is true but that is yesterdays news it does not help SF move forward in the south. [As Adams was certain it would] The problem with moving to a another party as individuals, unless you are a siting TD, you go to the bottom of the queue and what good is that. The thing with SFology is you have to think outside the box. The Boss [what other word can be used] of SF wets himself when he comes near power, witness his behavior with Clinton and Bush, it is all he dreams about, no other small parties members go on about being in government as much as the Shinners, which reflects the language of the boss and his crew.

I would add that this obsession with power in my view is part of the problem for SF, as the electorate spots SF will compromise almost all to get into power, which explains why Higgin’s was elected in the EU elections and MLM was not..

Blissett

That is an excellent comment, but it should not come as to much of a surprise, A family members grandfather help set up a coursing club in Cork at the beginning of the late 19th century and it is still going strong. These roots go deep. With all the shit in the bourgeoise cupboard what were they doing attacking a working mans sport. As reprehensible as I find it, this displays a lack of knowledge about what makes people tick.

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22. Garibaldy - July 11, 2009

Leveller,

that’s fair enough. I’m interested in your point about defining what politics means for those on Hill 16. How do you think that squares with the point about avoiding detail? I am baffled by that, especially when the party put so much store in its very detailed job creation document. Is this perhaps a reaction to the failure of it to attract much attention?

Mick,

I agree that the suspicion that they are desperate to get into government probably cost them votes among more left voters. But as Ferris says herself, the problem is that those looking for an alternative government don’t see them as credible. It’s a hard circle to square, and I don’t think talk about decency will do it.

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23. Mick Hall - July 11, 2009

My last post [no 21] should have read at the end of 19th Century not the beginning.

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24. Jer - July 11, 2009

The elections in the south were one day after those in the north.

Sinn Fein ran in both jurisdictions. The country is spread across two jursidictions. All across this country SF activists were busy.

How then was it partitionist to say “length and breadth of this country”.
Your opening gambit was a weak one in my opinion. Outrage for outrage’s sake?

I thought the article was a clear call to establish a coherent political message that will reasonate with a large number of people and will lead, the key part, lead to real political change.

Seing as how the was the message required then it need not be a detailed treatise seting out how that party intends to proceed. Now surely the next step is continuing that debate.

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25. The Cappucino Kid - July 11, 2009

Tony Gregory never had a problem being an outspoken oppoent of blood sports and he was elected in the one of the poorest areas of the country. Not too many coursing clubs in Summerhill. Coursing isn’t exactly hurling or football -it’s a niche market.

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Leveller on the Liffey - July 11, 2009

Er, isn’t that the point? Coursing isn’t part of the fabric of life in downtown Summerhill so no danger of Tony losing votes there over condemning it.

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26. Wednesday - July 11, 2009

It’s not a rich/poor thing, it’s an urban/rural thing. Out in the country they see the campaign against bloodsports as an attack on rural Ireland. There genuinely was a huge outcry about it among that portion of our constituency – although it’s worth pointing out that neither Toiréasa nor any other SF member spoke against the motion at the Ard Fheis, so they really have no one but themselves to blame that it passed.

Of course you’d also have to point out that our election results were better in rural areas (places like Wexford where there were major internal problems excepted), so a bit of scepticism is warranted whether it really made as much of a difference as the hare coursing lobby inside and outside the party have suggested.

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27. Mick Hall - July 11, 2009

Recreational fishing is without doubt a cruel and inhumane sport and I would like to see the back of it, but most political party’s would not risk placing in an election manifesto that they intended to make it illegal.

The way governments in the UK often get round contentious issues like this is to give a private members bill time and support. {does this also happen in the Dail?]

The Cappucino Kid,

You may regard coursing as a niche market, but those who follow it do not; they regard it as much a sport as those who support Football or Hurling. On this issue SF were unusually clumsy and I wonder if this is because of a growing gap between local branches and people, or if not, is the info failing to travel up the SF chain of command.[this is a question not a statement of fact]

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28. The Cappucino Kid - July 11, 2009

Despite my cosmopolitan demeanour and worldy-wise ways I’m a country boy and I can assure you that I know very few people who either attend coursing meets, or who would care if it was banned. Spoilers on souped up boy-racing cars yes; the drink-driving laws and the rural pubs yes; a certain Dublin tendency to assume that ‘muckas’ are still living in the 1950s yes; but coursing, sorry, don’t know too many who care. Maybe there are just more blood-sport advocates in the SF voting base? (Only joking)

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29. Pete - July 11, 2009

Backward gimps commiting cruelty to animals – if that’s irish rural values then I think its time to put them away with Irish catholic values (which includes industrial scale child rape) and Provo values like lining men up and shooting them because of their religion. And don’t start this guff about the hares aren’t hurt – all these dogs that been blooded – just because blood sports are a pleb activity here doesn’t amke them any less of a throwback – some scum dog fight still has to be stopped.

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30. Pete - July 11, 2009

Mick – I personally don’t fish but the line ahs to be drawn somewhere – I draw it at warm blooded animals should not be killed in cruel manners for sport (yes I am saying shooting is not as much of a problem) that is of course if they are not FF/Tory voters.

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Leveller on the Liffey - July 11, 2009

Pete, Do you mean not a problem with shooting FF/Tory voters?

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31. The Cappucino Kid - July 11, 2009

Anyone one know what party that Tyrone footballer who was organising the dog-fighting supports?

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32. Pete - July 11, 2009

Nah, shooting as sport, FF/Tory voters may be hunted with hounds, baited or coursed as your fancy takes you

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33. The Cappucino Kid - July 11, 2009

I’m currently trying to cross a South African Boerboll and a Canadian Timber wolf and I’ve got a scrap of Bertie Ahern’s anorak that I use to bait the pups. Going to let them lose during the Lisbon referendum. You might be interested in taking a few pups off me Pete?

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34. Eamonn Dublin - July 11, 2009

Mick Hall said “With all the shit in the bourgeoise cupboard what were they doing attacking a working mans sport. As reprehensible as I find it, this displays a lack of knowledge about what makes people tick.”
I think you meant ” what makes people THICK”. If tearing apart hares and shooting rabbits is your only outlet well then why not try “jew baiting” a la Borat. Muckers who would call this an issue are not the type of political supporters you would want. If you wanna shoot, use targets not wee anilmals. These banjo playing cretins have no morals let alone politics so why would SF chase their vote. The bottom line is that Ferris is advocating that SF should seek votes from anywhere and to hell with the political principle. Mind you, we all know that the shinners have no principles as can be seen by their upholding of Brithis rule in the 6 counties.

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35. Daniel Sullivan - July 11, 2009

There is a large element of ‘Shure you know yourself’ about some of lack of definition of terms that Toiréasa uses. After all, a word lilke ‘republicanism’ covers all kinds of ground and I wonder sometimes if it’s use is a blanket to cover all kinds of divergent opinion that were it exposed to more scrutiny might not hold together.

The real problem for SF is that much the same discussion was meant to have happened post GE’07 but it evidently either didn’t happen or it lead to no conclusions being drawn.

When Toiréasa talks of ‘rights talk’ what I suspect she means is that rattling off rights without concretely explaining ‘how’ those rights are to be vindicated and delivered is the problem. Repeatedly using phrases like equality doesn’t say to people how that equality would be delivered. It’s a bit like a car salesman telling you the seats of the car are comfortable, the good ones go into exhaustive detail about how the leather is tanned, and the stitching is done by Italian grannies and all the rest. The purpose is to convey that yes this is comfort and this is ‘how’ it came to be comfortable. SF didn’t do that in ’07 and they didn’t do it in ’09 either.

And the ‘how’ of politics is something that a lot of the parties in Ireland find a challenge as it involves ticking some people off.

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36. Daniel Sullivan - July 11, 2009

re: the bloodsports, and in particular coursing it’s a very localised thing that spans an area from north Kerry (her own area) through county Limerick into Tipp and ending up in Waterford. From my own view point you might as well be defending the burning of kittens in sacks for all the sport there is in it.

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Wednesday - July 11, 2009

Not strictly true Dan, they were going mad about it in Cavan and Monaghan too. I’m inclined to agree with Eamonn D’s post above though. As I said to one of our reps from the above-mentioned constituency, if people are really stupid enough to give their votes to Tweedledum or Tweedledee because they’re cheesed off at our hare coursing policy they bloody well deserve to have their public services cut.

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37. Starkadder - July 11, 2009

My stance on bloodsports is basically the “clean plate” one:
do the animals need to be killed? Is there a quick and relatively
painless way to do it? (I remember my late grandfather, a country
fisherman, telling me he used to kill the fish as quickly as
possible). I don’t really think hare coursing fits the “clean plate”
scheme.

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38. Garibaldy - July 11, 2009

Jer,

I have alrleady said I am perhaps oversensitive on that issue, but at the same time, the article only spoke about the southern election. Had there been any mention of the northern election, I would not and could not have interpreted it as I did. I yap about this regularly at all sorts of people, and remember an early contribution as a commenter here being on this issue, and I did it over on P.ie a few days ago.

On the substantive point, it was a call to establish coherence. Anyone who lives in the north is in no doubt of the coherence there, even if being in government is causing some problems regarding local representatives lobbying their party’s ministers over decisions they don’t like, but this happens in all governments. To see southern representatives say there is a lack of coherence is very striking. And I don’t think the article itself was at all coherent. As I’ve said, without “abstract” left ideas and without detailed policy what is there?

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39. splinteredsunrise - July 11, 2009

Yes, it’s the detail. It brings me back to GE ’07, when Gerry was great at doing the big-picture statesmanlike thing he likes to do, but didn’t seem to have much of a grasp of the detail of southern politics. Personally, I thought O Caolain would have done better in the TV debate – he’s a bit of a boring speaker, but nobody could accuse him of not knowing the detail.

On the other thing, I used to go ferreting when I was a kid and I still don’t sentimentalise fluffy bunnies. But it’s not something that would swing my vote one way or the other.

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The Cappucino Kid - July 11, 2009

Where the hell did you go ferreting? I’d love to tell you I used to hunt with a Kestrel but that was purely over exposure to Ken Loach’s fim that has had a severe effect on men of a certain age. I think the coursing reference is a bit of a stalking horse (if that’s not a very mixed metaphor) for unpopular policies in other areas- like the ‘foreigners’. Not suggesting for a minute ‘racism’ but a more ‘practical’ policy on immigrants.

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splinteredsunrise - July 11, 2009

It was just coincidental that I had a mate who bred ferrets. Coursing, on the other hand, is not something you come across in the north. Maybe it really is a big deal down in Kerry.

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40. Wednesday - July 11, 2009

I’ve no doubt whatsoever that if Toiréasa had written of activists working “the length and breadth of the State” someone would have come along to accuse her of partitionism for ignoring the work put into the Six County election.

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41. Garibaldy - July 11, 2009

It wouldn’t have been me but Wednesday 🙂

I agree with SS that there is an underuse of people who would be on surer ground than some of the chosen spokespeople.

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42. Pete - July 11, 2009

Cappu Kid certainly take a few of those pooches off yer hands, also might take a bag of those ferrets Splintered I think of a certain Limerick TD they can be trained to take care of

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43. Pete - July 11, 2009

Cappu Kid certainly take a few of those pooches off yer hands, also might take a bag of those ferrets Splintered I can think of a certain Limerick TD they can be trained to take care of

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44. Maddog Wilson - July 11, 2009

splinteredsunrise

Re Post 39

You have never read Watership Down? Whats wrong with Fluffy Bunnies?

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45. Mick Hall - July 12, 2009

Just to be clear I oppose all blood-sports, including fishing and I am a vegetarian, although that does not say much as so was Hitler.

What I am not is a politician looking for votes. It matters not a jot that tens of thousands of people are not out every day coursing, [although I am sure the hares are pleased]

When a political party starts talking about such a ban, all those people who fish with line and rod, shoot, keep ferrets and god knows what other acts of torture of animals they do to get their fun, they start worrying their grubby little ‘sport’ will be next on the list to be banned.

The fact we are on post 45 and no one has mentioned this tells me it is hardly surprising the left still meets in a phone box and SF’s vote stalled. [Just having some sport;)

Now some will say so what, these people need facing down, but political parties have to act astutely if they are to gather in votes, if they are likely to be elected to office they have a responsibility to say in a manifesto what they would do if and when they gain power.

But this did not apply to SF so I am still puzzled why they went out of their way to piss off a sizable section of the electorate.

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Wednesday - July 12, 2009

The hare coursing thing wasn’t in a manifesto. It was a vote taken on two motions at an Ard Fheis. The anti-hare coursing motion got more support than the pro-hare coursing motion, that’s all. And as I said none of the pro side got up and argued their case so it’s hardly surprising the anti side won. I expect you’ll see a revisitation of the issue at the next Ard Fheis.

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46. sonofstan - July 12, 2009

She has a point.

Many SF supporters are leftish in so far as they would tend to fairly unreservedly support a free health service, decent social welfare payments, free and equal access to education – some more right wing commentators might suggest that this is because they are the people who depend on these things the most.

Where SF supporters and activists may differ from Labour voters and other leftists is that they will not automatically be liberals as well. Since the late 60s, it has been more or less taken for granted within the Labour party that, to be a socialist/ social democrat, you must also be liberal and secularist on what, in Ireland, gets called social or moral issues. Shinners, by and large, don’t see it like that.

Now I’d be as supportive of the ‘liberal agenda’ as anyone, and would argue, and campaign for civil partnership and legal abortion in this country, but, it must be said, these are not core – or exclusively socialist issues – it is possible to imagine erstwhile PDs who would share my view on these matters, for example.

I’m not really drawing any conclusions from this: merely that I think there is a distinct SF constituency in both polities that might be forever resistant to Labour, and for reasons, not confined to hare-coursing, but which might stand well enough for the kind of metropolitan values that alienate a lot of people that might is every other respect be left leaning.

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Wednesday - July 12, 2009

The ironic thing though is that there are plenty of Labour members and supporters who are not particularly liberal on social issues. Their party policies on abortion and same sex marriage are actually less progressive than SF’s. The difference is that they don’t impose a party whip on their elected reps in speaking on these issues, so when you have someone like Proinsias de Rossa who is strongly pro-choice he can make his personal views known and people assume them to be party policy. The anti-choice ones like Upton and Shortall tend to be quieter about their views, but it’s clear from the Labour policy that those views are more widespread among the party and its supporters than many people realise.

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47. shea - July 12, 2009

agree with son of stan.

for the last decade there has been a left right(centre) tit for tat debate in and around SF the eirigi split the 2007 election now. feris is right it is mostly abstract talk.

one of the strenths of ferris in terms of media in the recent election is that she is not the type of person to call a long handled digging instrument a spade. but see still articulated basic idea’s in a simple way.

think her opinion piece is more a presentation argument than an ideological one imo. In terms of presentation in the media SF is stiffled uncarismatic etc. trying to appeal to everybody and appealing to nobody.

on mick talking about adams going wet for power. bit of context. the GFA if you believe it’s a vechichle to a UI has the potentiial through strand 3, the north south mechanisms to evolve over time with the concent and agreement of the govenment and executive in the 26 and 6 counties. the idea of the back of that is that if SF are in government north and south that they are in a better position to nuture the process along and that SF should aim to do it because no one else will. now you may say load of bollox won’t work but on pradicting if something will or will not work doesn’t take away from the entent.

people on this board and your self mick are probably more interested in the consequences of the intent to get into government i.e dift to the centre etc the arguments to go left, but if you want to understand the debates need to look at them in there wider context and why the motivation to get in to government.

the left argument and theres merit to some of it need to argue if they want to win how taking a left direction will lead to the republic, because that was my motivation when i join up, i’ve left but i’d still be supportive on that basis. the whole mick o reilly theory is a good one, adams seems to have bought into it because it,s doable, agueing about right and wrong should and shouldn’t when it’s not an option is abstract.

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48. Mick Hall - July 12, 2009

Shea

You make a fair point about the potential of strand 3 etc, although it is not one I subscribe to and I would suggest is it an argument that would not be to the fore of most peoples minds when they vote in the South, however this does not make it any less true.

This raises all sorts of issues about what type of party SF is? Is it a centre left reformist party which gives equal weight to social issues like health care, decent benefits, working conditions, equality etc, or in reality is this all window dressing designed to hoodwink the voters as its own sole aim is to get into government and push to make re-unification a reality.

If it is the latter it would explain why the SF leadership appears to some of us only to willing to get into bed with just about anyone when it comes to forming a government, whether they be FG, SF or LP. I think the progressive section of the electorate in the South have sensed this; and understand only to well to enter a coalition as a minor party SF would have to dump much of its election manifesto commitments. Perhaps they have concluded this being the case there is little point in voting for SF, after all some Irish progressives have already burnt their fingers once after voting for the Greens.

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49. shea - July 12, 2009

yeah thats probably it. mick. adams gets no prestige by Sf going into government in the south so again have to bring up what you said earlier bit petty but it’s sunday and dublin are looseing to kildare at the moment lol . adams may even be a bit of a third weel in the north not being on the exectutive. don’t buy the line that adams wants power for power sake. its about reunification.
but the leadership not just him did buy into a sypmlistic arument about getting power down here, i.e go in with FF FG and in fairness this is after watching the PD’s tail wagging the dog senario with FF for the best part of the last decade, so there was some idea however nieve that SF in government could hold onto its self giving a government a left tinge but ultimatly they the PD’s went to the wall and the same process appears to be happening to the greens. so your right.

but all this being said, historicly this has been the case for the last 50 years of coalitions in the 26 counties anyway and whats the point of groups of like minded people assembleing, working there bollox of etc if there not going to try implement there ideas.

maybe theres an honour in isolation and maybe it’s a stategic error in that your allowing your self to be contained. at some point and it’s been shown, that people across the specrum at some point will be tempted to roll the dice if there faced with a choice. and any gambler knows loosing is always a posibility. so what but.

again the way around it is for people who advocate a left direction, don’t just say it for the sake of saying it. consotrate on the how and the why. and that did happen with the mick o reilly theory in the party. but add to it as well.

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50. EamonnCork - July 15, 2009

I’m kind of loath to say this but I don’t have any problem with coursing, in fact I’ve been to the national meeting in Clonmel quite a few times. I think the loathing it inspires has an element of cultural disdain about it, (I recently came across an anti-coursing letter of the week in an eighties Hot Press, the last line of which was, “a red-faced farmer ejaculates in his trousers.”). Few hares are killed these days since muzzling was brought in. There is the argument that the hares are traumatised by being chased by dogs. They undoubtedly are but, having said that, the life of a hare in the wild is not solely a matter of putting the feet up, enjoying a glass of wine and watching BBC4. That’s my opinion, whether it marks me out as a club-footed rural gobdaw is up to the other posters. I’d say the ban cost Toireasa Ferris some votes, not a significant amount, but I’d say that she is using it as an example of a disconnect with the potential base which SF suffer from. There is a populist element to potential support, people who would be very proud of their county’s republican heritage, admiring of the hunger-strikers etc., which would be turned off by a motion like this, even if they were never at a coursing meeting in their lives.
I’m not particularly sure that opposition to coursing is per se a left-wing position. It strikes me as a kind of Green Party issue, a sport which can be comfortably condemned by people who don’t really care if builders have to take a ten per cent wage cut or if cancer services are senselessly centralised. (I’m not casting aspersions on anyone on this site, by the way, I’m well aware it’s full of people who’ve done practical work to try and make society better.)
Anyway, I better take up my slash hook, my wife, who’s also my cousin and my aunt, tells me there’s some kittens need killing.

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Leveller on the Liffey - July 15, 2009

🙂 Nicely summed up, Eamonn, and I say that as a city boy whose rural relations can’t see the problem with ‘field sports’ when many critics don’t blink an eye at angling or stuffing their faces with butchered animal meat at barbecues for pleasure rather than out of necessity.

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51. Mick Hall - July 15, 2009

Well said EamonnCork, as you write animal rights is not a left-right issue, I know right-wing Tories who argue in favor of ending blood sports and leftists who go out shooting and fishing. As I posted above Hitler was a veggie and I might add Trotsky loved a good day out shooting birds and wild animals.

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52. Eamonn Dublin - July 15, 2009

Hitler, Trotsky and incestious culchies. This debate is getting better and better. The only sad thing is that most badger baiting-hare shredding-sheep shaggers can’t read so they won’t understand our arguments for a civilised approach to animal welfare

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53. EamonnCork - July 15, 2009

They mightn’t be able to read. But some of them can spell. “Incestious”?

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54. Jim Monaghan - July 15, 2009

I am not terribly concerned about the blood sport issue, I am opposed but do not see it as critical. The point is the pandering to populism. Another issue I raised with a friend in Leitrim SF was using the old railway lines as walkways. Big for tourism etc.
He told me that it could not be done with SF because the farmers had used the line for buildings (there is a foundation) many times without planning permission and besides they would not like tourists wandering around.
Ferris was effectively blaming the Dublin lefties for an alleged loss of votes. The same thing used to happen with the LP, probably still does.
You could say Ahernism was to dodge decisions about everything in case you upset ant group of voters. A receipe for paralysis.
The crowded centre where all the politicians are nice and the baddies are civil servants or Brussels or whatever.

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55. Niall - July 15, 2009

I’m not a fan of bloodsports but I’ve known people who hunted foxes and hairs and they didn’t seem like the sadistic perverts some would make them out to be. Weirdly, one chap who liked to ride his horse alongside a pack of dogs as they chased a fox with a view to ripping it to shreads happened to be a vegetarian and environmentalist and another guy who had on occassion taken a shotgun out to shoot foxes once ‘adopted’ a pack of young foxes whose mother had been killed by a car.

Anyway, while I don’t like the ‘sport’, I don’t feel that the state has any business banning an activity that doesn’t threaten our population of foxes and which isn’t particularly cruel or unusual given the standards of the wild. More foxes and hares die naturally or as the result of car accidents than do as a result of hunting.

In any case, I can’t take Sinn Fein seriously on human or animal rights given some of their past actions.

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Leveller on the Liffey - July 15, 2009

Nor, I take it, the ANC, PLO, any Western government, any Eastern government, any left-leaning Latin/South American government, the British armed forces/governments, the ‘Old IRA’… anyone who takes up arms?

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Niall - July 16, 2009

Well did you ever take someone like George Bush or Ronald Regan seriously when it came to human rights? Did anyone really think that a man who encouraged torture was invading Iraq for the sake of Iraqi human rights?

My major problem isn’t with what Sinn Fein did in the past, but in their attitide to it now. They refuse to acknowledge that some of the things they did were just plain wrong.

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Leveller on the Liffey - July 16, 2009

Right or wrong is a matter of political judgment or perspective (as it was in 1916/Civil War/Orange state) but I think you’ll find that the IRA and Sinn Féin have both acknowledged the very real hurt that was caused by republicans’ actions, which is more than can be said of the unionists, the British or fence-sitting parties and other nay-sayers in the 26 Counties during the conflict.

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Niall - July 16, 2009

If Sinn Fein judge themselves by the standards of the Unionist parties, then they can forget about ever getting a vote from me.

The major difference between other Irish political parties and Sinn Fein on human rights is that while Sinn Fein will be the first and loudest to (rightly) condemn American or British military wrongs, they’re also the worse offender of human rights in the Republic over the past 40 years. And while they may acknowledge the ‘hurt’ they’ve caused, they speak as though it was simply unfortunate that these things had to occur, rather than admit that some of what they did was morally wrong and constituted a violation of human rights. In many cases, right or wrong are not simply political judgements. Even in wars, there are standards. Sinn Fein have failed to meet those standards in the past.

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56. Mick Hall - July 15, 2009

Is there not an argument that blood sports, boxing, (which I like) and these type of ‘sports brutalize society as a whole. If you have ever been at a junior amateur boxing match and watched grown men and women, often the parents, screaming at one of the youngsters in the ring to knock the other lads fucking head off, it does make one wonder if such a ‘sport’ should be made illegal or at the very least discouraged.

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Leveller on the Liffey - July 16, 2009

Fair point, Mick.

We (and the Evening Herald) do exalt ‘our’ boxers at the Olympics while tut-tutting and arresting young bucks for punching the heads off each other in O’Connell Street on a Saturday night.

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57. WorldbyStorm - July 15, 2009

I went hare coursing many many years ago… or more accurately I was brought due to my age. I thought it was pretty boring TBH and have never had occasion to change my mind since. A lot of this sort of stuff is pastime, which is fine…but…

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58. Mark P - July 18, 2009

I see that another Dublin SF Councillor has resigned. This time it’s Louise Minihan in Ballyfermot. And like John Dwyer (but unlike Christy Burke) she makes her reasons very clear in her resignation statement:

“Sinn Féin has, over the course of the last twelve years, moved steadily away from the core values of Irish socialist republicanism and is no longer willing, or able, to challenge the British occupation of the Six Counties or the rotten capitalist system which is causing so much hardship to working families across Ireland today.

Sinn Féin is taking the wrong position on a whole range of national, social and economic issues, resulting in that party becoming largely irrelevant to working people.”

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/93210&comment_limit=0&condense_comments=false#comment256150

Not mincing her words I think it’s fair to say. How many is that since the election? Three in the South and two in the North?

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Leveller on the Liffey - July 18, 2009

I know and like all three ex-councillors in the South who have resigned. That said, I think there is a big question mark over people who freely stand for election under a party’s banner and then, within days if not a few weeks, announce they’ve had problems with that party for a long time. Their ‘problems’ didn’t stop them putting on a front at election time not just to voters but to their comrades and party workers.

Mark P – Re Louise “not mincing her words”: If she thinks SF has been moving away from its core values “over the past 12 years” why did she proudly take up a co-option in recent years and stand for election under Sinn Féin’s name only last month? Why did it take her 12 years to ‘unmince’ her words.

If people believe they would have been elected on their own record and merit anyway and they had long-standing problems with Sinn Féin policies or direction, they should have the integrity and shown some honesty to their comrades by declining to stand for Sinn Féin (others undoubtedly have).

I have no problem with people saying SF have got it wrong but I do have a really big problem with them hiding it until they’ve got their bums on council seats.

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59. Mark P - July 18, 2009

Leveller:

On the issue of whether Minihan should have done x,y or z… well, I don’t have a dog in that race and don’t much care. I do broadly agree with you that it leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth when someone stands for election for a party and then resigns within a few weeks – presumably her problems with SF were just as real when she agreed to stand. Unless circumstances really have changed in that short space of time, I suppose.

My interest in the story is mostly about what it reveals about the state of SF in the South and in Dublin in particular and it isn’t pretty. Like Dwyer (and unlike Burke) this is someone who is making it pretty clear that they are leaving because they think that SF has moved too far to the right. It will be interesting to see how many people she brings with her from the already depleted Dublin activist base.

I don’t think this does O’Snodaigh any favours and he may be under some serious pressure come the next election. FG and Lab will be on the up and if PBP can get their act together and focus on one candidate they will take a lot of votes from him too.

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60. Big Yellow Taxi - July 18, 2009

For some reason people like to claim that Hitler was a vegetarian, seemingly in the hope of casting doubt on the ethical basis of that diet. However, at best it’s empty-headed reasoning, since Adolf Hitler drank water, had a mustache, wore shoes, read newspapers, kept a pet dog, liked the cinema, and a did a whole host of other ordinary things. So what if he also refused to eat meat?
It’s meaningless.

But, strangely enough, he didn’t.

Hitler was not a vegetarian. His favourite meal was something called stuffed squab, whcih appears to be a wild bird cooked and eaten in such a way as to leave a plate of bones in front of the diner.

He is also said to have been fond of sausages and cavier.

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61. shea - July 18, 2009

well he banned smoking in public places, like the fascists of this era lol

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62. Mick Hall - July 20, 2009

“For some reason people like to claim that Hitler was a vegetarian, seemingly in the hope of casting doubt on the ethical basis of that diet.”
———————-

I despair sometimes, it was a joke aimed at myself, for I am a vegetarian, although it seems unlike BYT I see nothing noble or extraordinary about being a veggie, beyond I do not like eating dead flesh. By the way I doubt it will come as a surprise to readers of CLR that Hitler said one thing and then did another.

On the resignation of Clr Minihan, she is a ballsy young woman, I thought the statement on the indie list is one of the best resignations I have read. No crap about wanting to spend more time with her family, she is blunt and straight to the point, the Adams leadership has sold out the Republican struggle in the north and the working classes in the south; and who am I to argue against that.

As to sticking to the seat, Billy Leonard always comes to my mind when Shinners complain about that. If the SF leaders who were responsible for candidate selection were to dim to see she may up and walk, then the party should be on at them, but hey they will not as they have been anointed by Gerry.

Who can argue against the following statement by Ms Mimihan, even if she may have had her fingers crossed when making it.

“It would be hypocritical of me to hand over my seat to a party I no longer support or believe in.”

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63. Leveller on the Liffey - July 20, 2009

Interesting take here on Louise leaving SF.

http://mattcarthy.blogspot.com

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64. Mick Hall - July 20, 2009

Leveller

Matt Carty makes his point well, I did wonder about a pre election pledge, if there were one it should not be taken lightly, although in fairness to the woman, SF leaders have hardly set an example for telling the truth.

Interesting about éirígí

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65. EamonnCork - July 20, 2009

Without getting into the merits of Sinn Fein, Louise Minihan or Eirigi, it it is the case that SF local election candidates signed a pledge saying they’d give the seats back to the party if they resigned from SF, isn’t this about keeping your word. Christy Burke and John Dwyer were fine public representatives, I don’t know very much about Louise Minihan, but it does seem unfair of them to go back on a pledge given just a few weeks ago. If they had a problem, perhaps they should have raised it then. It’s not as if SF have made any great political U-turn which would have invalidated the pledge since the elections. Unless you could make the case that the candidates were advised to stomach policies they found uncongenial on the grounds of electoral pragmatism and the underwhelming result persuaded them of the folly of this course. You could make the case too that Burke and Dwyer have individual followings yet even then people would have worked hard for them because of the party.
Matt Carthy does make his point well, in fact he writes unusually well and succinctly for a politician. There’s obviously a personal hurt involved too given that Minihan is obviously not only a friend of his but the godmother of his daughter. His reward, I notice, is to get called an RUC supporter. All blogs are not as civilised as CLR.
And, though I’m loath to argue with Mick who’s a rock of sense, I think that statement about not handing the seat over to a party she no longer supports or believes doesn’t make a lot of sense. Surely the hypocritical thing was to run in the colours of that party. I’d agree, however, that her statement is impressive. She may well become a kind of public face for Eirigi. Good luck to her but I would have some sympathy with SF on this one. These things often take on a momentum of their own and you’d wonder if there are more resignations to come. I still think the party should ride out the storm until they are gifted pre-eminence on the left by Labour’s inevitable coalition with Fine Gael.

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66. EamonnCork - July 20, 2009

I also notice that Matt Carthy has Toireasa Ferris’s statement up on his blog. Thinking about this over the weekend, I came to the conclusion that it’s probably wrong headed. Because of the strange situation which pertains in the North, SF have become a kind of catchall party, almost in the mould of FF up there. But if they become a version of FF in the Republic, there’s no reason for anyone to vote for them when they have traditional centrist parties to vote for already. So I don’t think a move to the right would work for SF. Perhaps the difference between the relative positions of Ferris and Minihan says something about the different make-up of the core SF support in the cities and in the countryside.

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67. sonofstan - July 20, 2009

The resignation in the republic are all, broadly speaking for leftists reasons aren’t they?

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Leveller on the Liffey - July 20, 2009

I could find that more credible if the councillors had left before they stood for Sinn Féin in the elections rather than after they won their seats on a Sinn Féin ticket.

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Blissett - July 21, 2009

Dunno about dwyer, but not burke.

One of his main difficulties with the party was his desire to vote for the estimates in the last council, so hardly leftist reasons. Mostly personal i’d imagine really.

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68. Garibaldy - July 20, 2009

SoS,

The Provos were suggesting that Burke’s was because he wanted to vote for the estimates, so I guess that would be a push to the right.

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69. WorldbyStorm - July 20, 2009

On indymedia someone said that Burke vote with FG and Labour on estimates since the election. Anyone know is there any truth to that? Certainly on the radio that was one of his major complaints about SF that he couldn’t do so. So, as you say Garibaldy, that wouldn’t seem to be a leftist reason.

I agree with Leveller. They signed declarations, got elected through the push of the party machine and members. It seems a bit much to suddenly turn around and say that it was all their own doing… I can’t help but feel cynical about that. And I would whatever party they belonged to.

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sonofstan - July 21, 2009

Maybe the individuals are culpable, perhaps dishonorable here: but a spate of resignation from a party that, although it did less well than last time in the election, didn’t suffer a catastrophe such as the Greens underwent this time, or the PDs suffered in the GE, would surely indicate that there is something wrong within the party? Even the PDs were less liable to jump, and they positively espoused self-interest.

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70. Wednesday - July 21, 2009

I’ll give you any money that “impressive” statement was actually written by Éirígí. And in short order we’ll have another “impressive” statement saying “after giving careful consideration to my options I have come to the conclusion that Éirígí are the organisation that best represent the core values of Irish socialist republicanism to challenge the British occupation of the Six Counties and the rotten capitalist system”. Also written by Éirígí.

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71. Joe - July 21, 2009

Much talk about people leaving SF for ideological reasons.

Yet it took 4 days for Éirígí to write a response to the McCarthy report.

4 days to respond to a document that promises pain not felt since Charlie asked us to tighten our belts.

Most blog sites has responses within an hour. Most blogs are one man/woman efforts.

Talk about being a democratic socialist republicans while being over wordy is also plain useless if it comes late. Éirígí may be sound ideologically etc. but is that any use to ordinary people who want to hear dissenting voices shouting out against the media consensus of cut the minimum wage, cut the dole etc.

Still 4 days late is better than no response at all all.

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72. Eamonn Dublin - July 21, 2009

Perhaps eirigi took time to consider the issues rather than indulge in a first past the post agenda. anybody can write any ould shite and judging by some of the responces, they have. Also, Burke engaged is a voting pact with Fine Gael and Labour against the other independents so as to get a position on a council board. Typical me feiner.

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73. WorldbyStorm - July 21, 2009

Problem is that Éirígí aren’t really, even (or is it particularly) if they do wind up with one councillor, in any position to come through on that proposition. Yet more fragmentation, and meanwhile we have McCarthy, etc, etc.

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74. Joe - July 21, 2009

Eamonn, Maybe that was it. Charitable as that would be.

WBS, indeed thats the case. While folks shift between calling spades shovels and shovels spades in an ideological Quesft for the holy grail back in the real world ordinary pat and mary are about to get trashing.

Losing direction is what happens when people start focusing on what ideology best represents working people at a time when working class people are on the racks.

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75. WorldbyStorm - July 21, 2009

What’s fascinating is that Sinn Féin in its flawed fashion is the only formation in the Dáil that is identifiably of the left of Labour persuasion. Whether that’s cause for hope or pessimism is open to question, but… it does make this dancing around on the fringes a bit hard to take. Yes, when they sell out in the South I’ll be happy to excoriate them, but until that point seeing splinters to smaller and smaller fractions doesn’t strike me as of any use at all, as you say Joe, to working class people.

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76. Mick Hall - July 21, 2009

WBS

Whilst I agree with what you write about the negativity of smaller and smaller left groups, SF also have a responsibility to make a move towards left activists and the working class electorate.

Not once have SF turned around to comrade Minihan and argued against her resignation from a socialist perspective. Nor told her electorate she was mistaken because SF has socialist policies. They have attacked her not on her politics or her claim that SF is no longer a socialist republican party, but on what they regard as her personal weaknesses, i e she should resign her seat as she signed a pledge.

Pray tell how is that helping working class people?

Indeed I cannot remember a single occasion in recent years when a Councillor has resigned from the party and SF has challenged them politically, it is all personal.

Which in truth goes down like a lead ballon with workers as there is nothing in this for them, Just once I wish they would challenged those who resign from the party on the issues they claim to have resigned over.

It is true SF is the most progressive party in the Dail, but increasingly they are being seen as opportunist, what other conclusion can one draw from Ms Ferris statement. Thus SF need to draw up a left republican platform and stick to it, both north and south. For what it is worth I feel this is the only way they will regain lost ground and go forward in the south.

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