Grenfell tower June 15, 2017
Posted by WorldbyStorm in Uncategorized.trackback
This piece by Phil really gets to the heart of the issue for me.
It comes in the context of a government utterly beholden to the ridiculous view that regulation, and particularly health and safety regulations, are so much red tape. This was taken to its extreme by the Tories who ran on a platform pledging to scrap two regulations for every one introduced: an intellectually bankrupt and profoundly stupid approach that risks lives for the sake of core vote grubbing.
The absurd naivety of any other view of these matters – that somehow regulation isn’t necessary, or can be minimised, is disproven time and again. It’s of a piece with ‘no company wants to injure (or worse) its customers’. We’ve seen companies that were run as near enough criminal enterprises with the immediate short term the only time span that mattered.
The Cedar Lounge Revolution 
It does look as though as it going to be the 21st century’s Aberfan, in terms of the way people have been killed by the contempt of their betters. Despite the similarity in the way an emergency service was cut, this is not like the two terrorist attacks during the election campaign.
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You’re not kidding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberfan_disaster#Aftermath
God almighty, would Sinn Fein get off their fucking high-horse and take their seats already, and bring this bastard government closer to collapse?
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They could even say “We’re taking our seats PROVISIONALLY to bring down the government, then feck off back to NI when they’re no longer needed.
Or, they could just kick the sparkle ball to the bloody DUP/tories.
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Or as Akala said: ‘these people died because they were poor’
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Yep. I was thinking last night about all the people, all the children, going to bed last night in similar blocks around the UK and what it must be like for them wondering whether their home could go up. There’s something merciless about all this – just the way in which safety isn’t seemingly a consideration and how that affects so many potentially.
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All will be well once Brexit releases British builders from red tape: http://m.bdonline.co.uk/5087364.article?mobilesite=enabled
bjg
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This line says it all:
“He said the initiative would provide recommendations to government, and it would then be up to ministers to decide how to proceed, but that the expectation would be that any regulation changes would relate to domestic industry and not impact on Brexit negotiations.”
So a worse regulatory environment would ensue. It’s beyond sick. Thanks for the link bjg.
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Firstly dermot,the numbers are not there for SF to bring any government down.If they swore alliegance to the queen tomorrow it could take months or years to reach a situation where the govern ment could be brought down.Secondly Jeremy Corbyn has stated he understands SF’s position perfectly and thats good enough for me.Thirdly we don’t call the occupied area “NI” and fourthly its very bad form to drag a party you obviously oppose into a tragedy not of their making.
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No, but they reduce the maj. to 2, which is a hell of a lot closer a govt. collapse than the 5 or 6 as of now. A maj of 2 is one by-election away from falling (if a tory is replaced by a Lab or Lib). Certainly two byes, which isn’t a long shot.
A govt. with a maj. of 5 or 6 could go at any time of course, but it could also last on life support for longer than necessary, and a lot longer than most of us would like.
Brits have anything from 5 to 8 byes a year, but we can’t expect all of them to switch Con/Lab or Con/Lib, though at the current rate the tories are rotting, you never now.
Anyway, I’d rather that DUP/Con maj = 2 than 6.
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SF have said they will oppose any deal between Conservatives and the DUP that harms the Belfast Agreement.
I am unsure how they plan to do this. Magic spells? Downvotes on Reddit?
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Lily Allen, who is local, apparently suggested on C4 that the police and authorities were drip feeding the death toll to defuse anger and grief and that it’s much higher than they’ve been suggesting.
Momentum are planning a march on Whitehall on Sat. calling on May to go.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/grenfell-tower-police-fear-they-will-not-be-able-to-identify-all-the-dead#img-1
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I thought that was a crucial point she made: that she had never seen a disaster covered like this one, with the media – the normally sensationalist, numbers-inflating media – actually consistently downplaying the death toll.
I very much doubt the Sun or the Express have suddenly developed a sense of morality or decency: it’s clear that the British establishment have a clear instinct for the meaning of this event and its radical implications.
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+1 Lamentreat. It’s bizarre to see this downplaying. Compare and contrast with the coverage of the attacks only a week or two back.
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I have always had an open mind with regard to abstentionism.My family sent Bernadette to Westminster(I was too young at the time) but I voted for non abstentionist candidates prior to SF standing for election.However there are many who hold it as an incontrovertable principle and I think it would be extremely dangerous to risk a major split over it for short term gain.The dissidents would exploit the oath taking at a time when they are extremely marginalised and use it to regain lost ground and anyway the proposed DUP /Tory government will collapse in ignomy in a couple of years.You also don’t factor in how the media would portray “the IRA bringing down our government”.Corbyn was able to escape most of the “damage” of his principled and welcome SF links on the grounds that Irish Republicanism no longer has any effect on England.However the prospect of the “IRA undermining British Democracy” would be whipped up into a frenzy,a scenario that Corbyn would definitely not want.
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If there was another election soon, Roddy, do you think the issue could help the SDLP win back a seat or two?
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Great point, Roddy.
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Foyle was won by 180 votes and could be vulnerable with even very low unionist tactical voting.
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That’s what happens when you run an election campaign on the basis of ‘vote for our crowd to beat the other crowd’ using religion as the dividing line.
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Dermot,I presume you are not being ironic with your “good point” reply but what I am trying to get across is that nothing is straightforward or simple as far as Northern politics is concerned.In fact you could throw away the rule book of what pertains in a “normal” political entity As I said “abstentionism” is not a red line for me at all but the ending of it is not the”quick fix” for an immensely complicated situation that many envisage.
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No roddy, 100% sincere. You do make a good point; I can see the gutter press using that against them.
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‘Intelligent, well-informed argument breaks out on the internet shock!’
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We’re here, not on p.ie!!!
😀
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Just reading there that it was a total saving of £5,000 to install the non fire proof cladding versus the fire proof cladding.
Hopefully some lessons learnt.
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Jrg,you are being your usual boring self but all that I can say is that I have worked on elections for more than 3 decades to stop a community that fought the orange and British states being misrepresented by uncle Toms either of the Redmondite or Two nationist “federation of the British isles” variety
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Can’t be misrepresented if you aren’t represented at all, eh?
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And yet you will lie in the same bed as the DUP in Stormont implementing Tory cuts to jobs and services, opposing the right of women to have an abortion in the North and reinforce the sectarian division that exists in society in the North.
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This criticsm of SF is popular with FF and FG too, and I really can’t see anything in it beyond the level of argument beloved of school debating societies.
There is a constitutional arrangement in Northern Ireland, that ascribes certain powers to the assembly and to the local government. It doesn’t allow control of the overall budget. Everybody knows this.
What are you saying if you say that SF are responsible for austerity because of this arrangment? Are you saying that anybody who works within a constitutional arrangment is responsible for everything that happens in that jurisdiction, regardless of the powers they actually have.
What would happen to your party if they were to find themselves in control of a local council in Ireland? Would they spend the budget they have? Or would they refuse to do so, because it should be bigger? Would they close the libraries becasue there arent enough of them? Abandon what little social housing they had because they should have more.
I just dont see any logic to the argument. It is quite honourable to work within a system while disliking that system and openly criticising it.
I do it every day, working in the public service, and feel no shame.
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The glories of capitalism, part the n millionth:
It turns out all those people died horrifically to increase profits by the contractor by a few grand. The fireproof version of the cladding would have cost all of 2 windsors more per square meter.
And furthermore the person who profited from supplying flammable insulation (through the usual ‘tax-efficient’ front companies, natch):
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Cable and Wireless are regular Tory donors.
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Rosencrantz,, SF stand for Westminster as to not do so would allow others to claim they speak for a community that is anti imperialist. When the world sees the electoral map they see that British imperialism is opposed by the inhabitants of an area in excess of 60% of the illegitimate statelet.Whilst many on here hold admirable political positions, avote for them would not confront the stark reality of how illegitamate the Northern statelet is.It is somewhat ironic that all you who profess to support Corbyn totally ignore Corbyn when he says he understands the SF position perfectly.
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That is some fantasy if you think a vote for Michelle Gildernew or Barry McElduff conveys ‘anti-imperialism’ to the world. The electoral map also reveals a majority of people who support a backward-thinking party whose leader is famed for being beaten up while denouncing the Pope in the EU parliament.
The Shinners signed up to the GFA and participate in the assembly – political emanations of what you call an ‘illegitimate statelet’. How is voting for SF confronting the State’s illegitimacy? SF have not tried to establish a parallel legal or political system, unlike the Republican movement during the War of Independence. Seems to me you are seeking to ride two horses here.
Your view on ‘support’ is instructive. Supprt for me does not mean that I swallow and defend every single action taken by a party or a person whereas for you it does. Corbyn ‘understanding’ your position is not an argument in favour of it.
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*former leader is famed…
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JRG ,you and your ilk support the continued existence of the illegitamate statelet that is the source of all our ills and opposed all efforts to consign it to history.
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The vast majority of anti imperialists worldwide support SF.Thats why Adams was the only European pall bearer at Mandelas funeral.Thats why there is a hunger strike memorial in Havana.Thats why Ken Loach urged support for John Finucane last week.Thats why Jesse Jackson basicallly told a BBC reporter to fuck off when said reporter started to diss McGuinness.The last time I looked McElduff and Gildernew were unambiguously opposed to British imperialist rule here and the backward thinking party only has major support in about a third of the occupied area.McElduff saw the inside of a prison cell for allegedly trying to operate “a parallel legal system” and Gildernew is a member of the family who launched the civil rights struggle by squatting in a council house to show the world the real nature of orange rule
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McElduff saw the inside of a prison cell for allegedly trying to operate “a parallel legal system”
Participating in the kidnapping and planning the execution of a woman is not a ‘parallel legal system’, roddy. Jesus, how much spin do you engage in?
Do you concede the point that SF signed up to the GFA and participate in the institutions of the Northern Ireland state? Does participating in these institutions mean they see them as legitimate?
As for your list of celebrity supporters of SF, this has no bearing on anything.
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Owen Hatherley has written a short article about Grenfell, worth a read, here’s a particularly interesting paragraph;
https://www.dezeen.com/2017/06/16/grenfell-tower-fire-lethal-failure-oversight-opinion-column-owen-hatherley/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral
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This article by Jonn Elledge of the New Statesmen’s urbanism offshoot Citymetric is well worth a read as well, especially when considering rehousing those made homeless by the fire. A taster;
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2017/06/after-grenfell-we-need-change-how-we-talk-about-council-housing
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I think your account of the case in question must be sourced from the indo group .It’s amazing how pseudo leftists take what is reported in the OBrien gutter press as gospel when it is following its anti SF agenda.McElduff got 18 months which would hardly be appropriate for “kidnapping and planning an execution”!
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You have not said my account in wrong or provided an alternative. Says a lot, really.
Are you going to answer my questions: Do you concede that SF signed up to the GFA and participate in the institutions of the Northern Ireland state? Does participating in these institutions mean they see them as legitimate?
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Your account is totally wrong and based on unreformed RUC and hostile media sources.The same dregs of the RUC who are this week spitting in the faces of the Loughinisland families would have been the same people who brought trumped up charges against McElduff and others. Participating in interim institutions like participating in local councils does not mean that the gerrymandered state is regarded as anything but an illegitimate construction.I know of nobody in SF who wants to see anything but this state consigned to the dustbin of history.
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Participating in interim institutions like participating in local councils does not mean that the gerrymandered state is regarded as anything but an illegitimate construction.I know of nobody in SF who wants to see anything but this state consigned to the dustbin of history.
So you are saying it is possible to participate in state institutions whilst still asserting their illegitimacy. And you assert this is consistent with ‘anti-imperialism’.
If that is so, then there is no justification for abstentionism. You could participate, go to London, and yet still insist in the illegitimacy of the state without fear of hypocrisy or inconsistency.
So how do you square this circle?
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I have already debated abstentionism with Dermot several posts ago and he graciously conceded I had a point. As the discussion has come full circle,I think it is time to leave Irish politics to another day and go back to what this thread is supposed to be about – an unforgiveable housing policy andits implementation which has led to such suffering in London.
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So no response then?
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It beggars belief how inadequate the response from all levels of govt has been – including the mayor. One of the richest cities in the world, 10m people and it was left to churches/ mosques and volunteers to try and deal with a few hunderd suddenly destitute and grieving people. So much of the coverage, even from the left, focussed on the optics of TM’s visit to the site versus Corbyn – as if it actually mattered.
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It has been bizarre, it’s as if the memory of the idea of state and regional and municipal action is forgotten.
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Corbyn put it well when he said airlines routinely deal with accommodating hundreds of people whose flights are cancelled.
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