Interview with Thomas Pringle… March 5, 2011
Posted by WorldbyStorm in Irish Politics, The Left.trackback
… in the Mail today with Jason O’Toole.
Pringle who was at one point a member of SF is now Independent TD, and one considered to be on the left, for Donegal South West.
Some interesting information on his family and his father Peter who was sentenced to death for the murder of a Garda and also some oblique indications of what sort of a left Independent he will be.
Two years after she told her husband to leave, the Pringle family’s world fell apart when Peter was sentenced to death for the murder of Garda Henry Byrne, gunned own during a botched raid on a bank in Ballaghaderreen, Co. Roscommon on July 7, 1980, by extremist paramilitary group Saor Éire. The three raiders were fleeing when they crashed into a garda car and tried to shoot their way out, killing gardaí John Morley and Henry Byrne. Paddy McCann and Colm O’Shea were quickly arrested near the scene. They are still behind bars, making them the longest-serving Irish-born prisoners in the State….after 12 days, the chase led them to Galway, where Peter Pringle been living since his separation. He had been a member of the Official IRA up until 1972 and had been interned in the Curragh, so he was accustomed to being randomly picked up and questioned about parliamentary activities because, ‘as far as the police are concerned you are never not active’.
Peter Pringle was imprisoned, sentenced to death – although that was repealed – and only exonerated in 1995.
Pringle discusses his own response to the death penalty in the article, but some of the most fascinating detail is simply in how the new TD is accustomising to being a new TD…
On the morning this interview takes place, Thomas had travelled to Dublin to visit the Dáil for the first time. He says: ‘It will be nerve-wrecking for a while and it will take a number of weeks, possibly a couple of months, to find your way around and feel your way into a system.’ Shortly before our meeting he popped into Mick Wallace’s restaurant in the Italian Quarter of Dublin city, to meet the colourful developer and discuss setting up a technical group with the other independent TDs in the new Dáil.
It’s clear that the current crop of Independent TDs, at least those of a left tendency, are entirely happy to work together. And no sign that he might be lured back to SF.
He says: ‘It’s vitally important to maintain your independence because people voted for an independent. But there will probably be a lot of stupid stuff about where people sit and where people’s offices are and all that kind of stuff. ‘I remember on my first day in Donegal County Council in 1999, there were nearly fights over where people sat in the chamber. That kind of stuff is just stupid. But that’s probably what will happen over the next week or so in the Dáil as well.’
And he’s not going to stand on ceremony.
Thomas, who once worked in a fish factory, is smartly dressed in a shiny new suit for his first visit to the Dáil. When I comment on the nice suit, he confesses with refreshing honesty: ‘This is the first suit I’ve ever owned. I bought it during the campaign to have one. ‘I had one that was 15 or 20 years old that I used to wear going to weddings and stuff like that. I’d usual wear a jacket and trousers, just thrown together. I’m not going to wear a tie in the Dáil. ‘I don’t believe a suit makes a man. It’s not me.’
The Cedar Lounge Revolution 
And no sign that he might be lured back to SF.
What was his reason for leaving SF ?
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Realised he wasn’t going to be top dog in the constituency, so he left.
And in fairness it worked out for him.
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Why did Gerry A run in the South? I read somewhere about controling more tightly the party in the South? He is going to be their leader in the Dail but I suppose no surprises as he is party president. Interesting times for SF. Will a left, right divide in the party become clearer in the Dail? I’d too be interested why Pringle left.
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Gerry A ran in the south to increase his profile and find a new role for himself in order to boost his personal leadership and profile within SF. I don’t think the big Dail presence will necessarily expose any left / right tensions within SF, SF’s speeches etc. are likely to tack to the left for the moment. The more important question is how will ambitous young TDs like Doherty feel about their seemingly obvious path towards the leadership of SF in the south being blocked by Adams?
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Soar Eire and father. Time out. I think SE was well defunct by then. Maybe something else.
Met the father once and we argued about armed struggle.
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Yeah, was not Saor Eire, just independent members of other things including BICO.
Pringle on Vincent Browne mentioned SF being prepared to go into coalition with FF in 2007 and some expulsions from the party locally as reasons for split.
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Yeah, re the Saor Éire connection – supposedly – I was curious about that. What was the purpose of the exercise?
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It’s disingenuous to simply say Pringle left SF because he wasn’t going to be top dog. That is just a plain lie to be honest.
There are a couple of reasons he left SF and he did outline those reasons, without airing dirty linen in public. There was a political aspect to it in SF whoring themselves out to FF and there was another issue, in SF’s treatment of local members who Pringle was close to. Let’s just say, questioning SF policy and the leadership’s direction is akin to signing your own resignation letter in SF.
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Much like most parties I’ve been involved in so.
Re the top dog point, you have a point in so far as we can’t know at this distance what the motive forces were. I prefer to give him credit for running on a progressive platform subsequently. I think that counts for something.
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Listen I’m not suggesting that was the main reason for his resignation. There were other factors of course but well it depends on which one was much stronger in triggering his resignation.
Funnily enough there were a good few SF canvassers who were telling people to transfer to Pringle, so I don’t think there is much antipathy towards him anymore.
I’d put him in the Tony Gregory, Cieran Perry class of left wing.
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Yeah I’d think that’s it precisely, and look I’d actually agree with you that motives can be complex and in some respects, but only somem self serving. I’ve yet to meet a politician who was completely selfless.
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I met Pringle senior after I think a founding conference of the IRSP.He had been I thinnk active in the COOP movement around McDyer in Glencolumncille.
I would guess that Saor Eire was a term used for anything that was not fully Provo or Official.
This TD seems to be a genuine leftist.
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According to my information, Peter Pringle was not a member of Saor Eire. Saor Eire had ceased to exist as any kind of force.
Jim Monaghan is on the button.
Colm O’Shea was actually a supporter of BICO – much nearer to Conor Cruise O’Brien then any republican group.
Pat McCann was not a member of any group. He described himself as an antique dealer and was well known to some of the Dublin glitterati.
Peter Pringle had left the Sticks and briefly joined the IRSP. In my opinion, those who said that this move not liked by Mrs Pringle who was a Sticky supporter, are probably near the mark. It was believed that Peter was not a member of any group at the time of the killing of Gda. Henry Byrne.
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What I don’t get is why such a diverse crew, excluding Pringle who wasnt there, would get involved in such an exercise?
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Maybe for the lolly!
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Well, there’s that…
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excluding Pringle who wasn’t there. Wasn’t he? His conviction was overturned because an alleged confession he made was contested and the court said it was unsafe. I certainly wouldn’t take from that that he wasn’t there. I’m pretty sure the Garda believe he was there and involved.
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Not sure that’s either a fruitful or useful line of discussion to get into. The CLR’s pockets are shallow. Shallow I tell you.
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Besides which, I am lead to believe the Garda can make the wrong call on armed robbery suspects occasionally…
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‘This is the first suit I’ve ever owned. I bought it during the campaign to have one.’
Reading this reminds me of Jonathan O’Brien, who was elected owning neither suit nor car according to the examiner, and is loath to wear one even to Leinster house!
I dont imagine Doherty et al will feel blocked or threatened. The leadership position was an open question going in to the Parliamentary party meeting, they went for adams, but it wasnt a foregone conclusion by any means. It makes sense, Adams can do the big angry eloquent speechs, and the homespun broadstrokes approach, (and also appeal to the 6 county electorate)
The detail and nitty gritty of policy will be handled by doherty Mary lou and o Caolan etc.
This makes sense to me. In fact its not a million miles away from a Gilmore + Burton/Rabitte/Quinn type approach
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Maybe, but personally I think that Doherty would have a much wider appeal. Speaking anecdotally, Doherty was extremely popular among friends and acquaintances of mine who would have very little time for Adams. As far as appealing to the 6 county electorate, SF in the north have their own leadership and ‘big-hitter’ personalities. While SF activists in the north should be (and undoubtedly are) delighted with the southern SF results, I doubt the Northern man on the street really pays all that much attention to Dáil speeches. On the whole, I don’t think it matters, Doherty will eventually become SF’s leader in the south and Adams is perfectly competent at what he does, thought I still think SF would have benefitted from having Doherty as their primary voice in the south.
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Also, that is pure Jonathan O’Brien alright. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him out of a tracksuit!
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Adams is in his mid 60s. Doherty in his 30s. Can’t see Doherty being too worried. And in any case my experience of the TDs is that they’re a collegiate group. Indeed a person in SF I know said to me about Doherty when he was first elected ‘he’s all about the team’. I’ve seen nothing subsequent to that to think otherwise.
Which puts aside entirel the issue that there are now ten or so new TDs and one or more of them should shine too.
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He has a wider appeal, but i think you can still make him the main face, leaders rarely have to make TV appearances in debates etc. Kenny showed how a leader can be hid in plain view. Now thats not necessary with adams, but it shows you that an alternative face can be put forward as often as desired, or as little as desired to achieve whatever effect. Trust me, doherty wont be lacking in profile in this dáil anyway.
As for the northern man in the street, im not sure. From talking to sf activists on the ground doing registration in armagh and tyrone, one of the number one issues coming up on the doors was the southern elections.
Northern nationalists look south in a way that we dont look north. It wont do SF in the north any harm to have adams, belfast man born and bred, bringing up issues that matter to them in a dublin parliament, along with a strong team behind him incl young and youngish performers such as doherty maclochlainn, MLM Jonathan etc. So I think that northern exigencies is also a consideration.
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That’s a good point. The way Varadker was pushed out into the forefront over the past four weeks is a lesson in how these things are done.
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Due to space restrictions, I didn’t get a chance to include some of Pringle’s thoughts on reasons why he left SF in the Mail interview today. But here’s some pars I wrote up in the first draft I did.
In January 2004, he then joined Sinn Fein and topped the poll in the Donegal area in the subsequent local elections. But, three years later, he dramatically left Sinn Fein. One member of the party’s cumann in Donegal told me they believe Thomas left the party when it became clear that he was never going to be selected as a candidate to contest a general election because of their ‘one candidate strategy’ in the Donegal South West constituency.
‘Sinn Fein will probably say that that was the reason I left and that I’m not a team player and all that kind of stuff. That’s not the case.
‘Probably people in Sinn Fein will dispute this, but I have never been in politics for personal gain. It just didn’t work out. It was a combination of about 20 or 30 small fights.
‘But I’ve been in politics for 12 years, I was in Sinn Fein for three of them. I don’t regret joining Sinn Fein and I don’t regret leaving Sinn Fein either. So, it’s ancient history now. It’s water under the bridge.’
From listening to him, Thomas Pringle clearly has no animosity towards his former party, but one has to wonder if his attitude will remain the same if they target his seat in the next general election.
‘It’s never been a driving ambition of mine to get into the Dail. It’s not the be all and end all, as far as I’m concerned. When you get involved in local politics, you realise you can affect change at a local level and you can have influence on policy and how council operates. I then seen there was potential at a national level, that maybe you can affect change there too. So, that’s really why I ran.’
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Thanks for that. Very useful additional insight.
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I interviewed Paddy McCann two years ago for Hot Press; in the interview he claimed he was a senior figure in Saor Eire.
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He may have been at one time, but they were long gone by 1980.
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By the way Jason, kudos on the series of interviews you have been doing over recent months. To be honest, I wouldn’t had expected them of your paper (I am UK based) … which I guess shows my own prejudices
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Thanks for the kind words, Ramzi. Much appreciated. Captain Rock, regarding McCann – I did put it to him that Saor Eire were gone by 1980 but he dismissed that and claims he was still a member upon his arrest. He claims he was their C0 at time of arrest. I can only ask questions and print answers given.
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No worries Jason. Out of interest did McCann discuss the motive for the raid ? Eg ideological or financial reward
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Fair enough.
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Are many people on the left ill-informed about feminist issues? I ask because Pearse Doherty has many fine qualities, but he has signed up to the far-right lifer agenda.
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It’s a tricky one Tom as, as Wednesday who sometimes comments here notes, this island is filled with leftists who resile from pro choice positions. To be honest, whatever my own feelings on the issue, I don’t personally see that as a deal breaker in terms of positioning people on the left. I think it’s a cultural thing which some people align with and others don’t. I’m not sure seeing it through a far right prism has sufficient explanatory power.
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I think calling being pro- or anti-choice ‘a cultural thing’ downplays the importance of the issue. It’s hardly equivalent to attitudes to drug prohibition or the Irish language?
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Cultural in the sense that on this island the issue seems to cut across political lines in a way that it doesn’t elsewhere and therefore it’s more difficult to pin down on the political spectrum. And also, I guess, that the nature of the societal approach (hypocritical and all as it has been) has strongly influenced peoples attitudes to it.
I’m not suggesting it’s not an important issue. And I’d add that of course the ramifications aren’tat all cultural.
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Since this is a Thomas Pringle thread, it’s worth pointing out that his credentials on the issue aren’t very strong either. Although he didn’t sign up to the Pro-Life Campaign’s pledge never to legislate for abortion, he did tell them he “did not believe abortion is a solution for a crisis or unwanted pregnancy”. Something that’s very easy to say when you will never be faced with a crisis or unwanted pregnancy. It sounds to me as though he’ll accept legislation for ABC and maybe one or two other situations, but no more.
As for it being a deal-breaker, it was certainly a deal-breaker for me when I was living and voting in the US (although it was also sort of irrelevant then, in the sense that there simply were never candidates I would have voted for on other grounds that wouldn’t also be strong on abortion – it very much is a left-right issue there, as it is in most of the global north). The constitutional situation makes it a bit trickier here since, apart from ABC there’s not really a lot that pro-choice politicians can do about the issue.
Having said that, in this election I did deliberately give the only two openly pro-choice candidates in Dublin Central my No 1 and No 2. The Workers’ Party lost my No 2 entirely because their local candidate is anti-choice.
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I quite like MLM’s position on it.
Very true re Pringle.
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WbS – At what point does ‘cultural’ opposition to women’s rights become right wing? Can someone ‘culturally’ opposed to contraception or the morning after pill be left wing, or is it only when their reactionary views coincide with those of the majority of the population i.e. the status quo? Isn’t changing the cultural common sense part of what being left wing is all about? And on a wider level is it possible to be economically, but not socially leftwing without being ultimately logically inconsistent?
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I don’t know if I’d see it that way exactly. Firstly contraception including the morning afte pill doesn’t seem qualitatively to be the same as abortion. I think on ethical grounds one could take very different positions in all sincerity on abortion without necessarily being reactionary or anti womens rights, though much depends on how one sought to impose that view through legislation. Nor is it entirely clear to me that being pro choice is a single undifferentiated continuum of thought either. Some who strongly support choice might resile at, say, late term abortions (however infrequent they may be) or whatever.
Or consider Wednesdays point above. Wednesday chose the two pro choice candidates in Dublin Central but if in Donegal who could be voted for using that criteria. And does Dohertys views make him pro forma
‘reactionary’?
I guess I just seems fairly complex, and again while I agree there is a reactionary impulse on th pro life side I’m not sure it’s entirely correct to view all those who demur on pro choice as being reactionary.
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What pro-choice candidates were there in Dublin Central?
There were candidates of extreme anti-choice parties (Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, CSP), candidates of moderate anti-choice parties (Labour, Sinn Fein), an anti-choice candidate for a pro-choice party (Workers Party), a candidate for a party which refuses to take a position on the subject (the Greens) and a whole bunch of independents, most of whom don’t seem to have said anything on the subject.
Perry seems like the only likely pro-choice candidate, but I have to admit that I don’t actually know his opinion on the subject for sure.
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Mary Lou McDonald is pro-choice.
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I’ve no idea of her personal views, but she was a candidate of a moderately anti-choice party which voted down abortion rights in Northern Ireland.
Perhaps, like Ivana Bacik, she’s a pro-choice politician in an anti-choice party, a kind of inverse of the Workers Party candidate’s situation?
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Ciaran Perry is certainly pro-choice and was very active in the various choice campaigns during the 1990s.
As regards the parties, SF have oscillated on their position since the 1980s (when i think policy was determined by a pro-choice women’S section) and personally i’m not surprised to find their candidates in donegal have an anti-choice position which is common there. On the other hand there are other SF candidates who have been active pro-choice campaigners.
Does anyone know if there’s a referenec to legislating for the X case in the Labour-FG program for government? Or now that Ivana failed to win a seat has Gilmore decided to let that issue slide?
Lastly a question for Mark P: what were the Socialist Party doing with regard to the choice campaign in the early 1990s? I do not remember any of their members playing any kind of a role or providing any material support. Maybe Clare Daly, who was at DCU SU at the time, but other than that, not a sausage. I appreciate the SP was a different beast back then, but if you’re going to have a go at other parties then you might as well having an honest understanding of the actual practice of your own.
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I have absolutely no confusion about the position of the Socialist Party on abortion or for that matter the position of Sinn Fein of Labour.
The Socialist Party is a pro-choice party: It’s position is to support free safe, legal, abortion through the health service for any woman who chooses one.
Labour is a moderately anti-choice party: It formally opposes a woman’s right to choose an abortion except under limited circumstances, and even that formal commitment to very limited access to abortion has been abandoned in its new programme for government.
Sinn Fein is a moderately anti-choice party: It formally opposes a woman’s right to choose an abortion except under limited circumstances. In practice, it voted down the extention of abortion rights to Northern Ireland.
Both Labour and Sinn Fein include members with a spectrum of personal opinion on the subject, ranging from pro-choice people to rabid anti-choicers in the Doherty mould. However, their party positions and actions are as outlined above.
As for your memory, you are incorrect. The Socialist Party has been pro-choice throughout its existence, as was Militant Labour throughout its existence. I have no idea when the Militant tendency adopted a pro-choice position however. Clare Daly, as you note, was a prominent figure in the abortion rights movement, a number of other Militant Labour members were actively involved in a less prominent capacity and all were doing so with the full support of the organisation.
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By the way, this is an issue which pro-choice Labour and Sinn Fein people tend to be extremely touchy about, their “party patriotism” all too often over riding their honesty.
Over on Indymedia at the moment there are some anonymous Labour types trying to insinuate that Richard Boyd Barrett, who is a leading figure in the SWP and supports free abortion on demand, is somehow soft on the issue of abortion. As opposed to Ivana Bacik who was standing for an anti-choice party.
I fully accept that there are pro-choice individuals in both Labour and Sinn Fein, and some of those people have very good records as individuals on the issue, but it takes quite a level of dishonesty to try to insinuate that there is anything less than a clear distinction between the positions of the socialist left and the positions of these moderate anti-choice parties.
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Re: Prettyinpink,
There is a reference to abortion issues in the Programme for Government – their aim to to establish a quango who will come back with a report some time in the future. There is no explicit promise to legislate in accordance with that report.
I would not hold my breath.
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“Over on Indymedia at the moment there are some anonymous Labour types trying to insinuate that Richard Boyd Barrett, who is a leading figure in the SWP and supports free abortion on demand, is somehow soft on the issue of abortion. As opposed to Ivana Bacik who was standing for an anti-choice party.”
I had to smile when I read that. A week before the election result I was having a cup of tea with an LP member close in to the organisation who told me under their breath about how SF was putting around anti-abortion leaflets against Bacik and other LP candidates. When I expressed a bit of doubt about this given my own knowledge of strong pro-choice opinion in some sections of that party (though not denying the opposite tendency is also to be found) being official party actions whatever about the likelihood of some individuals going off on one conversation segued into the usual ‘SF will do anything’…
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It would be a particularly bizarre thing for SF to be doing in Dun Laoghaire where they weren’t even standing!
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I saw one of the anti choice posts. It was the usual gang of nutters. They did it against Bernadette in Dublin North Central a numberer of years ago.I would suspect FF encouragement on this. At hands length.
It would be unfair to target Labour on this anyway. As if they would take a courageous stance on anything.I except Bacic, a good person lost amongst opportunists.
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Given that SF wasn’t even running a candidate against Bacik, the idea that we would be leafletting against her on abortion or any other issue should be dismissed as utter nonsense without a moment’s further thought.
On the party issue while the SP’s stance is unequivocal and very welcome, I haven’t personally noticed much activism from them either as a party or as individuals in recent years. Whereas the SWP (through their cover name Feminist Open Forum) have been active collectively and individually, and at any given pro-choice event a significant proportion of the attendees will be members of other parties or groups such as WSM. I would like to see the SP pushing the issue a bit more, including in the new Dáil.
Lots to say on the left-right issue but no time right now. Will come back to this later.
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Yep, there’s that as well re not running a candidate (though I think mention was made of other constituencies). But trust me facts wouldn’t matter in that conversation. It was SF bad, LP good. End of story.
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I’m not sure that Feminist Open Forum is simply a cover name for the SWP. Certainly in its early days there was at least one Socialist Party member involved and its most prominent figure seemed to be Ailbhe Smyth who is not in the SWP. I haven’t been following it closely however and it’s certainly possible that the situation has changed.
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That’s interesting. For a while I got the impression Smyth was in the SWP, presumably from that.
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Smyth is a leading figure in People Before Profit, but as I understand it she is not in the SWP. I couldn’t absolutely swear to it though.
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Well her PBP role would have helped with that impression… 🙂
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By the way, could you possibly put up a notice advertising the following:
Unite Left Alliance post-election Rally: Why We Need A New Left Alternative
Friday March 11, Gresham Hotel, O Connell Street, Dublin. 7.30pm
Speakers:
Joe Higgins TD
Joan Collins TD
Clare Daly TD
Richard Boyd Barrett TD
Seamus Healy TD
All welcome.
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Done and dusted.
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Given that i don’t live in ireland anymore it’s impossible to testify with certainty, but as far as i know Ailbhe Smyth is not a member of the SWP. She is a long-standing left-feminist, and has been head of the Women’s Studies department in UCD for donkey’s years.
Seeing as UCD would have afforded her ample opportunity to observe Kieran Allen’s managerial style from close-up, i think her subjecting herself to his ‘party discipline’ can be excluded. the PBP is of course another matter.
The Smith sisters who were very active in the abortion struggles are of the Smiths with an ‘i’, and as noted above, conducted themselves as fighters for women’s self-determination first, and SWM members second.
ps The hate towards Bacik from the right nearly propelled me to campaign for her against the rest of my political instincts.
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I have often felt precisely the same about Ivana Bacik as you do prettyinpnk and for much the same reason.
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Any sympathy for Bacik would properly have been offset by the vicious anti-socialist campaign her team ran against Boyd Barrett.
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Mark P: I was not at any point suggesting that the SP or its historical predecessors were anti-choice. My question was with regard to what contribution they actually made, specifically at the time of the X case and the subsequent referendum. There is a difference between a party having a line as a placeholder and dedicating significant resources to a problem. I brought this up because of the fact that by 1992 there was to my knowledge no structural involvement by Militant in the various campaigns.
Anyway, I see that this sounds like my trying to needle the SP, which is not useful. At that time it was a small organization with a different orientation so it wouldn’t have made much of a difference. In truth the only group that seemed to devote a large level of resources to it was the WSM, after that it was down to individuals, Bacik and friends of course (and the bile this obviously continues to provoke during election campaigns never ceases to amaze me), Various members of what was then the SWM (Like the Smiths and Joan Collins IIRC), Ciaran Perry and co., a bunch of independents and an iconoclastic member of the LP from the inner city. O’Broin came over with a group who did good work during the referendum around the country, but he was living in London during the period.
Rosencrantz: thanks for the clarification regarding the Program. That they kick for touch yet again on the issue comes as no surprise. Legal avenues forcing the govt to legislate should be investigated, it’s nearly twenty years of failing to vindicate the rights of women at this stage…
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Joan Collins was a Militant Labour activist at the time and has never, as far as I know, been in the SWM/SWP. It doesn’t really make sense to talk about having a “placeholder” position in favour of a woman’s right to choose in Ireland in previous decades, although you are right that the WSM played a disproportionately large role for such a small group.
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If I recall correctly the party I belonged to, democratic left, had the most liberal abortion policy at that time, certainly of parties represented in the Dail. But in a way doesn’t that point up how we have to be careful of linking abortion, as distinct from other issues such as contraception etc, directly into a discourse of good/bad, left/far right… Etc.
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WbS, I don’t really think that there’s any more of a problem linking abortion to a left / right divide than there is with linking contraception to the same thing.
It’s certainly possible for broadly left wing people to have a right wing position on abortion, or pretty much any other individual issue, but that indicates that they are incoherent rather than that abortion is outside or above such divisions.
Prettyinpink,
I’m not sure what the situation is regarding the introduction of legislative proposals by small opposition parties, but it’s certainly something that should be looked into. It would of course be impossible to pass anything in the face of FG/FF opposition, but it would make the issue more prominent (and also put SF and Labour under pressure).
As for the SWM/SWP and collaboration, they do seem to have made something of an effort in recent years to be less “impossible” than they used to be.
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There’s an obvious problem. There are numerous parties of the right which have little or no problem at all with abortion, albeit individual members of same have problems with it. The Conservative party in the UK hasn’t done anything significant to roll back access to abortion even if members of the Tories are vociferous in opposition to it, much the same is true of continental political parties of the centre and right, with obvious exceptions. The situation in the US is different.
Simply because on the left there is a broader tendency to accept the pro-choice position doesn’t per se make it a left position.
Now, if we reframe it in terms of a rights issue well that’s a different matter (though I think there’s some validity to the idea that depending on context it becomes one of competing rights), but to try to see this as exclusively a left issue is something I don’t find hugely convincing.
Again, consider that as noted elsewhere, during the 1990s it simply didn’t register for many further left parties. Was it a left issue then? Didn’t seem like it to me when I was in WP or DL, though some organizations such as WSM had a good record on the issue. But others simply didn’t care.
Granted time moves on and attitudes change, but…
As for a position on abortion being incoherent for those leftists who don’t agree with pro-choice. Well, in truth I wonder how many people actually believe at later stages in pregnancy, and issues of viability, etc enter into the equation. In other words there are grey areas. If that’s the case then a defined political position, let alone a defined left position seems a bit chimerical to me so as I say elsewhere, even within a pro-choice approach there’ll be different views.
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WbS, I’m a bit baffled by your waffling here. I’m not arguing that it’s impossible to be generally left wing and anti-choice or generally right wing and pro-choice.
Opposing abortion rights is opposing women’s rights, which is a conservative stance. Taking a right wing stance on one issue doesn’t mean that you are a right winger on all issues. And just as you get left wingers who are conservative on an issue or two, you get conservatives who are progressive on an issue or two. People are complex, sometimes contradictory, sometimes confused.
But it is crucial to understand that opposing abortion rights is opposing women’s rights and certain consequences logically flow from that.
In Ireland, the fight for abortion rights has been waged by movements and parties of the left pretty much exclusively, the feminist movement, the anarchists, the socialists, the left republicans, the left social democrats (when such people existed). The opposition to that fight has been led by the most conservative and reactionary elements in this society. Including the people whose pledge Doherty gave a “written personal commitment” to uphold.
As for it “not registering” on the left, every group on what you call the “further left” was pro-choice. As you yourself note, the most left parliamentary party of the time was the most pro-choice. The now extinct Labour left also provided support for pro-choice activism. From the Labour right on rightwards however strident opposition to abortion was the norm and at times bordered on being mandatory.
Abortion has historically mapped onto left / right divisions in Ireland in quite a clear way.
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Given that much of what you’re saying is precisely what I’m saying not sure where the term ‘waffling’ is applicable.
I’m making a fairly obvious that broadly speaking in international terms, certainly in Europe, abortion rights don’t follow strict left/right approaches. Much of the hard work was done by liberals and centrists (as indeed it was in the US at least in comparison to what we identify as the left here).
I entirely agree in Ireland the situation is different with the left taking a leading role organizationally (though I know a fair few FGers who individually were involved, and in other campaigns on social rights were very very heavily involved) but that’s because Ireland is different for many and varied reasons. Interestingly in the US we see the left/right divide, or more accurately the liberal/conservative divide, more so than in Europe.
So all I’m saying is that to see it as fundamentally a left right issue – particularly because of the Irish experience – seems to me to be a misreading of the situation. That’s all.
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I have to admit that I don’t know enough about the struggle for abortion rights in Continental Europe to have anything sensible to say about it!
My (perhaps incorrect) impression is that it in most countries there, the issue still maps onto a left – right division broadly speaking, but that the “centre” tends to be on the same side as the left rather than the same side as the right as in Ireland.
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Yeah, it a complicated one. If we look at the wave of liberalisations or decriminalisations of abortion laws across Europe in the 1970s through to the 1990s, its hard to say that they were simply left led. How else to explain France in the mid 70s? To be honest it was more a push from the liberal centre which was accepted/coopted by left or right governments. The UK is a good example. Labour accepted the 1967 Act which was introduced by David Steel of the Liberals. And even in the US if you look at the makeup of the Supreme Court during Roe v. Wade, it was largely due to centrist and conservatives that it was passed (though Rehnquist and White, the latter a JFK nominee both voted agin).
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It’s easy to see how some right-wingers support abortion rights if you look at it from the point of view of government involvement in essentially personal decisions. Abortion rights fit into that sort of classical liberal position which is why you find it among some elements of the right. It’s quite a different stance from the idea of reproductive autonomy as an essential element of women’s liberation, which is obviously a leftist position.
Abortion rights are under attack in Europe from other elements of the right, though. It might not look as though that’s the case because apart from Poland they haven’t succeeded in overturning the right entirely. But in a number of countries (such as France, Slovakia, Italy) they have succeeded in bringing in measures that limit women’s access to abortion, or that advance the notion of foetal personhood with the aim of reducing women’s bodily autonomy. In Britain the Tory attempts to roll back the time limit may not look like much from over here, but they have a political reality to deal with just as we do, and like us they’re taking their fight one step at a time.
Getting back to the left-right thing. The crucial point is that, although there may be a pro-choice right in many countries, there isn’t an anti-choice left. Ireland and Malta are the only two European countries whose main left parties (obviously I mean that in a “broad left” sense) are not pro-choice. The lefter parties in the rest of the developed world are all pro-choice (incidentally I’ve excluded the global south mainly because I don’t know enough about political parties in a lot of them to make such generalisations).
I think the social and religious history of the two countries provides an obvious explanation as to why they stand out in this way. And even assuming for the sake of argument that there could be any such thing as a left-wing anti-choice position, the Irish and Maltese parties haven’t adopted one. They’ve either taken blatantly right-wing positions on the issue, or positions that are clear compromises with the right.
So in summary I think it’s entirely accurate to refer to abortion as a left issue, notwithstanding the support for it by some right-wingers (albeit for different reasons) and the exceptional opposition to it by some leftists in countries that have been particularly influenced by certain cultural factors.
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“The crucial point is that, although there may be a pro-choice right in many countries, there isn’t an anti-choice left. Ireland and Malta are the only two European countries whose main left parties (obviously I mean that in a “broad left” sense) are not pro-choice.”
The other way of looking at that exact same set of facts is that Ireland isn’t an exception at all
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But a liberal could make almost precisely the same case, as could most libertarians, that their parties/formations without exception afaik aren’t antagonistic to abortion or are positively in favour. The only exception I can think of are parts of US libertarianism which go quiet on the issue perhaps because they seek to lock into broader conservative discourse or because if the particular discourse in the US.
So liberalism could as easily claim pro choice for their own. And while I take the point that some right parties are trying to stymie developments it seems to m that other than as regards issues of viability they’re in most western European societies on a hiding to nothing, not least because the socio cultural prominence and significance of the issue is markedly different say to the US.
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Mark, if I’m picking you up correctly, Ireland is still an exception because the “broad left” in other countries (i.e. including the parties that you wouldn’t consider left at all) are all pro-choice.
Also, if you bring it down to an individual left there’s an ambivalence about abortion even among the far left here that doesn’t exist elsewhere. Malachy Steenson’s position would be extraordinary anywhere else – I’m not even sure he’d be given such a prominent role in a left-wing party elsewhere. I’ve personally known a number of Irish leftists who’ve accepted only reluctantly their party’s stance on abortion, whereas I honestly cannot remember having ever met one in the US.
I’m not entirely sure all the far left parties are that committed to it here either. There’s hardly anything about it on the Workers’ Party website, for example – no clear statement of a pro-choice position. (Incidentally the DL position as set out on one of the leaflets on the Irish Election Literature blog, which I can’t seem to find at the moment, was barely any more progressive than Labour’s current stance.) I understand that Éirígí have yet to come up with a position, and my memory of one of their leading members – who would be associated with very strong left-wing views – arguing in favour of a Sinn Féin Ard Fheis motion to roll back the X judgment (which fortunately failed) suggests to me that it isn’t a foregone conclusion what position they will ultimately take. Again, this would be pretty much unheard of in other countries. Left = pro-choice, simple as.
And WBS, I think the reason that abortion opponents have had less success in much of Europe has mainly to do with the relative weakness of religion as a political force in those countries. The threat is greater in those countries where religion is more politically powerful, which sort of also proves my point.
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In a way Wednesday your caution about the further left is an echo of the very point I’ve been making here, that on the issue of abortion here in Ireland due to very specific circumstances the left is different itself and my only thought is that therefore to use it as a litmus test against Doherty et al is tricky.
Re your other thoughts. One problem with that analysis is that few would say that large continental right of centre parties had no religious aspect at all, or that religion didn’t play at least some role on a cultural level in those states, even if this is now vestigial and sublimated on the part of the large CD parties (in much the same way as some hope/expect the AK party in Turkey to develop in the longer term). But the real point is that abortion as an issue in itself seems to have been largely parked in continental Europe (at least in the western part) by conservative parties whatever their original provenance.
That taht may be a function of declining religiosity is plausible, but it’s not all of it I suspect.
But there’s one curious aspect to all that. Shift the focus slightly from abortion to IVF and other reproductive technologies/rights and one begins to see that there much the same sort of dynamic as surrounds abortion that comes into play. Look at Germany for example and there one will find strongly anti-IVF etc approaches from both the conservative right [consider Josephine Quintavalle’s and CORE’s activities in the UK which are a perfect expression of that] and on close examination from more unexpected quarters. I’m not sure if that’s a function of a hang over from a certain form of religious expression, well in the JC case it’s no hangover.
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the real point is that abortion as an issue in itself seems to have been largely parked in continental Europe (at least in the western part)
You’d be correct if you said “in the north western part”. There’s a very real risk that abortion is just one election away from illegality in Spain and Portugal (it’s only just been legalised in those countries, by their Socialist Parties which are of course of Mark’s not-left left). The centre-right in Italy have also moved to a more prohibitionist stance over the past couple years.
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Forgot to say, what else do those three countries have in common?
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The anti-abortionism of Heloisa Helena, the most popular figure of the socialist left in Brazil has caused more than a few rows on the Brazilian left.
The picture there is complicated by the existence of currents coming from a Liberation Theology background (now mostly marginalised within the Church but still important on the left). Helena however is herself not from such a background and was in fact for many years in the sister organisation of Ireland’s Socialist Democracy.
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Mark P: thanks for the correction re Joan Collins, faulty memory and all that.. then I guess it must have been another woman from the SWP that I am mistaking her with.
The reason I recall this is that at the time the SWM were basically impossible at the level of cooperation. The individuals from the SWM within the choice campaigns however were exemplary, one had the suspicion that they were definitely driven by personal rather than party motivation.
Anyway, that was then. What are the rules with regard to the opposition proposing legislation? Could the ULA do anything at that level?
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WbS You started off by saying being anti-choice isn’t necessarily a right wing position in Ireland because of cultural circumstances – ‘Cultural in the sense that on this island the issue seems to cut across political lines in a way that it doesn’t elsewhere and therefore it’s more difficult to pin down on the political spectrum.’ But now you’re saying it is a left-right issue in ireland, but not in other countries – which is it?
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I think you’re taking me up incorrectly. I suggested that specific societal/cultural aspects account for the predominance of an antipathy to abortion and for the fact that some leftists hold ‘pro-life’ views.
And because of that it’s difficult to map sentiment onto Ireland in a clear left/right way and in any case I don’t think the issue itself lends itself to clear left/right divides due to the very complexity which you yourself reference.
That formations on the left have been active in pro-choice activity doesn’t contradict that because firstly as MarkP has noted, both the LP and SF aren’t full blooded pro-choice organisations, nor are their memberships. And the left is very very small in this state relative to elsewhere, however we define it.
Indeed in my second last comment to Mark P, which directly addressed the issue I explicitly reiterated that:
“So all I’m saying is that to see it as fundamentally a left right issue – particularly because of the Irish experience – seems to me to be a misreading of the situation. That’s all.”
And in terms of the international context which I’ve been at pains to point out a stronger case can be made that liberals rather than leftists made the running and that de facto right of centre/conservative parties towed the line and in Europe at least haven’t generally demurred from abortion rights.
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It will depend whether ULA will be in a technical group. The rules are very Government oriented. A sort of once in a lifetime the opposition gets a chance and even rarer for independents. Skewed to the gov. It will be interesting to see if Fg and Lp moans about this will disappear
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Thanks WBS for the clear answer : “To be honest, whatever my own feelings on the issue, I don’t personally see that as a deal breaker in terms of positioning people on the left” – I do see it as a “deal-breaker”. To “resile” from a pro-choice position is one thing – people on the left might, for example, favour women having the right to an abortion in limited circumstances. But actively endorsing the lifers’ policy places you in the far-right camp on this issue – no mealy mouth ifs and buts. It means you side with Judge Costello who, in 1992, tried to intern in Ireland a raped suicidal 14 year old girl because her parents intended to offer her an abortion abroad. Thankfully a Risen Irish People forced cosntitutional change.
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Yes, but there are people on the right who are profoundly pro-choice (and people on the left who might not agree with abortion in any circumstance), so it’s clearly not a cut and dried issue politically.
And people do feel strongly on both sides. You certainly do. I do as well. I genuinely don’t feel that it’s easy to arrive at clear cut political determinations based on it. If Doherty feels that way I’m not denying his left wingness simply over this issue. That’s my view on it.
In any event, I’m not so sure one can draw a line between Doherty and the Costello judgment which by the way I remember well from the time. I can easily envisage a situation where someone was ‘pro-life’ and anti-forcing 14 year olds to stay inside the jurisdiction because they sought to leave it for an abortion.
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Doherty distinguished himself from the moderately anti-choice position of Sinn Fein by taking an extremist anti-choice position. ie He even opposes abortion in cases of rape etc.
He didn’t say either way whether he supported the restriction to these shores of 14 year old pregnant rape victims.
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By the way I’m not denying some far-right individuals and groups link right into the pro-life discourse, but I think to argue that to be ‘pro-life’ is per definition to be far right is a different kettle of fish.
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At post #10 –
10. Jason O’Toole – March 5, 2011 wrote
I interviewed Paddy McCann two years ago for Hot Press; in the interview he claimed he was a senior figure in Saor Eire.
I missed that interview, is there any chance of a scan of the interview for the archive of this website?
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As an aside If you are passing through Ballaghaderreen the scene of the robbery has been converted in to a pub – The Bank Bar.
I recall people there saying the gang who carried out the robbery drove up and down the town and shot out a few windows here and there.
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Sign of the times – it’s for sale.
http://www.property.ie/commercial-property/The-Bank-Bar-Main-Street-Ballaghaderreen-Co-Roscommon/17559/
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Re. PJ on Pat McCann, it is easy to claim to be a senior member of a non-existent organisation. Who is going to contradict you?
As for Pat being political. That should bring a few chuckles in the Nire valley and among those who drank in Grogans in the late 70’s.
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Wasnt one of them involved in the robbery to raise money for a massage parlour or something? What I always found strange is how the other ‘political’ eejits could have got mixed up with the likes of him.
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Quite simple. Politicals, former politicals and crims met frequently in the same pubs. Some of the crim types were often charming, sociable and charasmatic. Pat McCann was one of these.
In those days it you were in need of money, it was easy to organise a job – homer or otherwise. It may just have been a case of liberating a few Victorian or Georgian tables or armchairs. It may have been something else.
In the end it just came down to money and a bit of a buzz. Shared expertise made the job easier.
As an observer at the time, I would say one thing about McCann and Co. Most of them seemed to keep a distance from the emerging drug scene. They were not like the infamous Dunne family. They got on with their business silently, without drawing attention to themselves. The killing of Gda. Byrne shocked many of their social group.
What would anger politicos is any attempt to use republicanism to justify their cause. They should find other ways to reinvent themselves.
Thank you! End of my comments!
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Paddy McCann claims he carried out the robbery to “further the Republican cause”. He told me that right up until his arrest he was conducting “robberies; heists; killings; shootings; kidnappings; intimidation; burnings”– to further the Republican cause.
I will email the complete interview to Cedar now, perhaps he’ll stick it up / or file it away for future reference
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the pringles are very interesting people. clary pringle in paticular. her left wing politics are very practical setting up co-ops etc. thomas will be one worth listening to
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The new book on Democratic Left has a photo showing one of the Dublin Central candidates protesting in favour of divorce.
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WbS – you ask ‘does Dohertys views make him pro forma ‘reactionary’?…I’m not sure it’s entirely correct to view all those who demur on pro choice as being reactionary.’
Given Doherty has pledged support for forcing women who have been raped, are bearing foetuses incapable of surviving after birth, who have life threatening illnesses, or are legally still children, to bring a pregnancy to term and go through labour under all circumstances, he is clearly extremely right wing and reactionary on this issue.
I agree being pro- or anti-choice is not a simple yes/no position – one can argue about where the dividing line between foetus/person ought to lie – and I also agree that people can have contradictory views. However the willingness to completely subjugate women to biological imperatives necessarily involved in Doherty’s position is in no way way consistent with left wing politics.
Either he’s wildly intellectually inconsistent, his left wing politics extend only to men, he opportunistically signs up to policies he thinks are going to be popular, or his stance on abortion is not aberrant but represents his wider social views. None of the above appeals.
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Donegal is not renowned for it’s support for women’s reproductive rights.
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Neither is Ireland as a whole. Not much of an excuse.
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Probably inconsistent, didn’t he not sign when offered a more recent opportunity to do so? Or perhaps he simply didn’t understand the implications of what he signed in the first place, neither of which is great I agree, but neither of which surprises me either. The appeals to emotion on the issue always reduce it’s complexity.
But I still don’t think it’s entirely convincing to argue that Doherty is per se misogynist due to this though I’d surely like to hear his thoughts in greater detail.
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There are many things Doherty can be accused of, but the kind of stupidity it would take not to understand what the following means isn’t one of them:
“Senator Pearse Doherty has given a written personal commitment to oppose any legislation that would make abortion available in Ireland and supports a law to protect the human embryo from deliberate destruction.”
I also don’t think it’s credible to assume, in the absence of any statement from him to that effect, that he had some road to Damascus conversion over the last few weeks.
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As I hope I implied, I don’t know what way his mind works on this issue hence I posited two out of many possible alternatives.
I guess I’m trying to understand precisely what he is meant to be because it appears he has certain ‘pro-life’ views. So far it seems that some would argue that whatever any protestations to the contrary he is not of the left (above and beyond the usual point about SF not being a left wing party).
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“the pringles are very interesting people. clary pringle in paticular. her left wing politics are very practical setting up co-ops etc.”
Very definitely, I did a Social Action course with her in Glenties many years ago and was very impressed with her ability to translate politics into practical reality in Killybegs.
Considering the family history, she was very amused to be granted a banker’s licence to run a bureau de change in Killybegs!
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Ailbhe Smyth is one of two officers listed in the Register of Political Parties, maintained by the Clerk of Dáil Éireann, who is authorised so sign authenticating certificates for candidates on behalf of People Before Profit Alliance. (The other is Bríd Smith, who also is the sole authenticating officer for the Socialist Workers Party (S.W.P.).)
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