jump to navigation

More on McCarthy July 22, 2009

Posted by WorldbyStorm in Economy, Irish Politics.
trackback

The Irish Times editorial at the weekend as regards the McCarthy Report is well worth a read. For from the off it assumes that the Report is the evidence of… well, read on if you will…

SO NOW we know the real extent of the problem and the gravity of the steps required to remedy it. It is overwhelming.

The idea that the Report charts the ‘real extent’ of ‘the problem’ is an interesting reading of it. Is the PS bill the problem? I’d have a different analysis, and I’ve articulated many times why I take that position. We have a relatively small and not unreasonably paid PS by international standards. What we have is far from extravagant in terms of service provision. Since the financial crisis corrections that I support, to no small degree, have occurred as regards pensions. Personally I’d like to see a proper universal provision society wide. As regards examining for waste there is in any system always room for improvement. But even beyond me and my thoughts one of the most striking results of the McCarthy analysis, as noted by Michael Taft, is how little there actually is to cut. Where are the vast savings we were promised from our coddled, pampered, massive Public Sector? This, after all, was the Report that was meant to forensically cut away to reveal a leaner more efficient entity beneath. But oddly that hasn’t happened (what has happened has been a number of indications that McCarthy wasn’t quite as forensic as was presented).

But a sense that the Report in and of itself is a justification for all that flows from it is strikingly pervasive through our media… what of Richard Bruton’s words at the weekend in the Sunday Business Post?

The huge number of recommendations in the McCarthy report gives some indication of the scale of the challenge.

The fact that the continued existence of two government departments and 98 agencies is now in doubt gives some indication of the amount of waste and bureaucracy that has flourished under Fianna Fáil.

Uh-huh?

We now live in a postMcCarthy world. The sheer scale of the reforms needed to restore the public finances and reform the public service is now clear. So it’s disappointing that the only element of outsourcing implemented by Fianna Fáil to date has been the cabinet’s efforts to use Colm McCarthy as a scapegoat for the tough reforms that the government should be implementing. Rather than try to explain the report to the public, the cabinet seems to have gone to ground.

And it’s striking the direction of some of the reporting of it. For my money the best example of that was Mark Henessey in the Irish Times who sought to praise with faint praise. So after the somewhat odd compliment that the Report was ‘beautifully written’ which he appends to “it does flog a few horses that have been around for years, including the need to find ways to force doctors to use generic drugs” he notes:

Such magic-wand solutions have rarely produced much worthwhile, while the fascination for outsourcing in the report can be questioned given the past inability of the State to limit such bills.

Fair point.

Then he launches into musings on the Report and the issues it raises.

Should social welfare rates ever be cut? Should they be cut last? Should they be drastically reformed to root out waste and abuses (and they exist, and by the score) to ensure that those most in need are protected until the last?

It’s an interesting question, I suspect the answer is – as ever – it depends.

Problem is that the accompanying statement is incorrect. Go back and read the last appearance of personnel from Social Welfare before an Oireachtas Committee and one will see that far from waste and abuses existing by the score they’re actually fairly easily quantifiable and of a much lesser extent than the media proposes.

Hennessy argues that:

Extra taxation should be levied, but not in the form of income tax. People should not be discouraged from going out to work. We should pay property taxes, we should pay for our water and we should stop behaving as children thinking that services can be provided for nothing.

Who though is this we? The left argued across the decade, with a number of important exceptions, for higher taxation. Income tax as it happens because the left has also argued that universalism is better in such matters than fragmenting it, as with water charges, etc. However, note how that bangs straight into the ‘don’t raise income taxes’ mantra. A mantra that makes little sense if at the end of the day taxation is being levied (and by the by is a wedge issue in order to lower taxes and decrease public provision, as has been seen in the United States and elsewhere).

But, equally, we cannot have a situation where Middle Ireland is always the mug forced to pay more. Social welfare cuts may be the last thing to be done, but, if it has to be then so be it.

Are we at that point yet? Are we anywhere near it? Unfortunately he doesn’t actually come out and say we are.

The report’s focus on health, education and social welfare makes it easy to portray McCarthy and his colleagues as hardliners, but his opponents must make it clear where savings can be made.

Siptu president Jack O’Connor has poured scorn upon it, favouring a stimulus package to get people to spend what they have stored away. It is a well-articulated argument, and one would dearly wish to believe that he is right in thinking that such a stimulus and extra taxes on the rich are the way to get us out of this hole. However, I doubt that this can be done without pain for all.

No one is disputing there will be pain for all, indeed I’d argue that already there is pain for all. But McCarthy provides the polar opposite of what O’Connor suggests. A fiscal stimulus built on ‘pain for all’ is, to my mind, a vast improvement on a fire sale of public sector provision across education, transport, health and so forth.

Some realities have to be faced. Firstly, a decade-long boom when money could be thrown by the State at everything was funded by Lotto-style winnings from property taxes, and other one-offs. Those taxes are long gone, and will not be coming back any time soon.

However, the services they funded are still around. General taxation must rise to pay for them, or else we have to accept that some must fall. Undoubtedly, reforms could save some programmes. More could be done for less, but this will mean that public sector workers – who are as reluctant as any to accept change – must abandon old ways.

Except, and here’s a key problem, precisely what old ways is he talking about? The only truly fundamental ‘reform’ that comes out of McCarthy, and incidentally it’s one I support fully, is the idea of greater mobility in the Public Sector. Other than that we see no evidence of pan-systemic ‘old ways’ or restrictive practices. Instead we see practices that have developed in certain areas, such as the Garda, and practices that are specific to those areas. Indeed the very phrase ‘restrictive practices’ is used only once in Vol. 2 of the report in reference to some aspects of the primary and post primary education sectors (which I largely, although not entirely, would have little problem agreeing with their amendment).

Many in the health service work crucifyingly hard for patients, but the service is littered with restrictive practices that can stand comparison with the worst of the nonsense tolerated for decades from trade unions in Fleet Street.

Again, having read the text I’m not as certain as he that that’s what we see there are restrictive practices. For example, is working on a Saturday or Sunday for a pay premium genuinely restrictive, or is it a reasonable enough added extra? At the very least it’s debatable. Are all allowances unreasonable? Again, debatable.

Teachers can look to their own laurels. Perhaps Batt O’Keeffe last year exaggerated the impact of sick-leave days, but the idea of 31 days of uncertified leave is a joke. McCarthy is right when he says that Ireland is over-governed and over-administered.

Again, one wonders… what of the small but significant fact that it is primary teachers who get 31 days, secondary teachers, not VEC teachers who get 7 days uncertified, do indeed receive 30 days. The take-up rate is as follows:

At second level, 9,353 teachers took 1-4 days of uncertified sick leave; 3,208 took 5-9 days; 533 took 10-14 days; 88 took 15-19 days and 17 took 20-24 days.

So, if one proposes that three or four uncertified sick days is not an unreasonable provision (and realistically I suppose it’s possible that teachers are more exposed to infectious but short term conditions than most of us, otherwise why the latest thought from the WHO that schools may have to be closed in order to stem the transmission of swine flu – as it happens during the year I lecture in a third level institution on a weekly basis and I’m very conscious that vectors are much greater there than generally, and trust me, I’m watching the swine flu issue with more than ordinary interest) we can see that around 70 per cent of teachers cleave to something approaching the norm. As for the other 30 per cent? And in particular the magnificent 17… I can’t say I have much sympathy there, most importantly because one wonders how they could possibly do justice to the responsibilities they have to their students. Still, I can’t blame Hennessy if he misses the nuances of this. Because they aren’t in the Report, the text of which goes…

Sick leave arrangements: Teachers’ sick leave arrangements are more generous than the norm in the public sector, with an entitlement to 31 days uncertified sick leave each year at primary level, and no requirement for a medical certificate unless the absence exceeds 3 consecutive days. At post-primary level, the allowance is 30 days uncertified, with a certificate only being required for absences of more than 4 consecutive days.

Which is demonstrably incorrect since it ignores VEC teachers.

As regards it being overwhelming, well, riddle me this. The full measures proposed by the Report would amount to about €5.3 billion. We know that, as the IT puts it…

The first thing to be said is that this report presents a menu of financial options to the Government without any reference to the social policy of this State. The savings required by Government are significantly smaller than the scale of reductions identified in the report as being feasible. Since last year, some €9 billion has been taken out of the economy, largely through tax increases. A further €3 to €4 billion will have to be found next year and the expectation is that the bulk of this money will come through savings and public service reforms.

On Monday he was on RTÉ, and arguing that a unicameral chamber was a potential cost saving.

In its report the review group says that in order to realise substantive savings in expenditure within the Houses of the Oireachtas, it would be necessary to bring about major structural changes with considerable political, legislative and constitutional implications.

Think about that for a moment. It’s not whether the structures are in and of themselves good or bad or whether they have a societal value. It is instead ‘in order to realise substantive savings’. And what sort of savings? €28 million. There’s no comparison with other European polities to assess the ‘cost effectiveness’ of our highest democratic structures or contextualisation of any sort other than to note that a range of other European countries have unicameral parliaments. Given the very specific nature of the development of the Seanad one would reasonably expect more than that.

McCarthy admits that:

… reducing the number of TDs by 10 or so would not save as much as people thought.

He added that €120 million or €130 million annually was the total cost of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission out of an overall public spending total of €60 billion.

“But there is a demonstration effect involved, and we felt we ought to look at it,” he said.

But what demonstration effect? It’s one thing, and here I’d fully support reforms, to argue for cutting wages and allowances for our political class. It’s quite another to actually argue for structural change. That the distinction appears to elude McCarthy is instructive. By the by, on another topic, for many years we were told that the ‘demonstration effect’ of Sinn Féin TDs, the one Socialist Party TD and before them Workers’ Party TDs taking the average industrial wage and giving the balance to their parties was showboating on a grand scale. Of course that was then and this is now and I guess when the likes of Eoghan Harris are trumpeting their self-imposed wage cut of…er… 10% as if it were the height of parsimony we should expect little or nothing.

There really needs to be serious debate about all this, not just on the proposals themselves, although on that there presumably will be, but on what they represent and what they mean and what sort of Ireland they will attempt to usher in…because while there are undeniably some good ideas in there that should be adopted there is also, unfortunately, a very clear underlying dynamic. McCarthy argues that he does not call for the dismantling of the welfare state. That’s fine as far as it goes, but the approaches taken fundamentally weaken what provision we currently have. Look at what we lose… current child benefit payments, Garda stations (may not matter to some but I have a certain respect for the force and having seen the necessity for good policing a sense of how important that can be), a cut in unemployment benefit, a ‘rationalisation’ of our public sector, free education, direct impacts on farming subsidies, rural transport, health, a ‘restructuring’ of our actual democratic system. And so on. And so on.

More on this to come.

Comments»

1. alastair - July 22, 2009

McCarty’s remit didn’t include looking at salaries, so he’s unlikely to touch on lowering TD’s, or any other public sector wages. So – a limited report by it’s terms of reference, not through any preference for structural change over wage cuts.

And on the Irish Left Review defence of current levels of public sector salaries – most of their position is undercut by the CSO national employment survey 2007, which factors in occupation type, academic qualifications, age, and job experience into the mix.

And some of the ILR arguments are well off the mark: Women workers fare slightly bettter in comparative pay terms in the public sector? Great – but that’s still in the context of a measurable salary gap – maybe it’s a contribution to the gap, and a positive one, but it still exists. ‘The amount of years you have with your employer affects your wages’ – sure, in a system which uses an annually measured points system as the main component of salary review, but there’s also the notion that salaries often improve on the back of moving employers – the job market (in 2007) wasn’t primarily driven by forced employer changes, and, in most of those cases, you would expect that salary bumps would feed into the the attraction of moving jobs. And finally – that tired old bugbear: “The current focus on the public sector, however, has absolutely nothing to do with the structural fault lines within the Irish economy which led to the collapse of the banking system and the largest single increase in unemployment we have ever seen.” The ‘we didn’t cause the problem’ and now we’re being made pay for it’ line – well, eh, yes. Join the club.

Like

2. Crocodile - July 22, 2009

Re ‘that tired old bugbear’, Alastair, I may be wasting my time but here goes…
Quarter of a century ago, I signed up for a career in the public service. Despite what Charlie McCreevy has said, I did not ‘go a bit mad’ during the boom. I never bought a holiday home or a big car and never ever voted for FF or the PDs. Instead I watched my college mates prosper and took it well when I was called a ‘loser’ and a ‘leftie’. There was a memorable evening in about 2004 when my sister-in-law laughed involuntarily when I told her my income: it was less than what she, an accountant, was paying her new PA. I have a degree and two postgraduate diplomas.
So why stick with it? Two reasons. One because it is public service: work that needs to be done as well as possible and by the best available, I believe. And two, because of the pension.
The public service pension is where my spare cash was going in the nineties – ‘AVCs – yes, please!’. The pensions of public servants should be better than those in the private sector, because it provides an incentive to sign up for the long haul and allows society to acknowledge contributions that are seldom reflected in salary. So intersecting graphs now show public sector averages temporarily ahead of private sector ones: come back to me when we’ve had two decades of that!
We took a pay cut – the ridiculously named ‘pension levy’. No other EU state has cut public service pay. As Brian Lenihan said, there’d have been riots in some countries. If he does want to see riots, let him attack public sector pensions. 25 years ago, I did a deal: I’d work hard and never be rich, but I’d have a decent pension at the end of it. No, I’d never be ‘competitive’, because what I do has nothing to do with competitiveness. My colleagues and I are in no competition; we won no trophies; we have suffered enough losses.
To expect public servants to pay more is an injustice – an injustice already suffered by many in the private sector, I know, but no less an injustice for all that. And we can and will fight back.

Like

3. alastair - July 22, 2009

Well done on not rioting over a 7% pay cut in a scenario where you’ve got a pension that no-one outside the public sector can afford, salaries which are positioned above comparable private sector ones, and where the public sector has so far evaded the job losses, 3 day weeks, serious income cuts, and general income insecurity that has become commonplace in the private sector.

Yes – it’s a ‘tired old bugbear’ at this stage. 99% of the workers in the private sector played just as little role in creating the property bubble and bad banking practise as any public servant. They have been shouldering a lot more of the consequences of that mess since, and really don’t need to hear about how the public sector deserve a get out of jail free card that no-one else got.

The pensions of public servants should be better than those in the private sector, because it provides an incentive to sign up for the long haul and allows society to acknowledge contributions that are seldom reflected in salary

Except where they are – and as such are measured in the CSO stats. No doubt those in the private sector on lower salaries (and that’s an awful lot of people) would like such an incentive too, but they don’t have it, and to ask them to subsidise that incentive in a context of an exchequer shortfall, is pretty unsociable, wouldn’t you say?

Like

4. Tomaltach - July 22, 2009

Croc,
Alastair’s point was about the mantra that ‘we didn’t cause this’. I too find that mentality a bit trite and reeks of self interest.

Your point about your salary is poignant, however.

What you say about not being competitive is also refreshing and draws a subtle picture that is often lost in the debate between public and private.

In your deal though you left out security. Your particular post may or may not be secure, but the vast bulk of public sector jobs are. (Even with the talk of 17000, it is likely most of that will come from retirements, not forced redundancy).

You said your deal was ‘I’d work hard and never be rich, but I’d have a decent pension at the end of it’. For most people in the private sector their deal was ‘I’ll work hard and never be rich, but I don’t even have a decent pension at the end of it’. In fact, about 400,000 of them don’t even have jobs now.

You find it ridiculous and injust that public service pay would be cut. (I accept that the cuts were certainly unfairly distributed, but that’s not the issue here).

At a time when the productive capacity of the economy has dropped back sharply and the numbers paying in to the tax pool have collapsed, and given your acknowledgement that public sector pay is now higher than in the private sector, I find it absurd that public service pay wouldn’t be cut.

What do we say to private sector workers “you now get paid less than the public sector, your jobs are horribly insecure, your pensions are vapour, but to maintain the level of services you have to pay more tax because you are much fewer in number, because we have to maintain public service pay levels no matter what”. That’s fairness and justice for you.

Like

5. Crocodile - July 22, 2009

It was the name ‘pensions levy’ I called ridiculous, Tomaltach, not the cut itself – borne, in my workplace anyway, with no pleasure but with a sense of the inevitable. It’s not the salary that matters most, it’s the pension.
And, Alastair, the idea that workers have to hold their tongue about injustice because other workers have suffered even more is poisonous. The lad next door works for Intel. He hasn’t lost his job, but he’s pretty worried that the company can announce buoyant results, the share price surges – and yet they announce job cuts because, well, because they can. And one of the reasons they can, so easily, is lack of unions – the same unions he’s slagged me so mercilessly about in the past. He got into his job knowing the risks and he makes more than me but I don’t want him sacked and, if he’s telling me the truth, he doesn’t want my pension attacked to satisfy some spurious idea of ‘equality’ , an equality that means all workers suffer equally while nobody who caused the bust goes to jail or loses office.
And my original point, though admittedly over-personal and emotional, was about historical context. You can’t judge a person’s deserts on ‘we are where we are’. For my whole career I’ve earned less than I could have in the private sector, until possibly the last year. That’s why I said come back to me when we’ve had two decades of public sector ‘advantage’.

Like

6. alastair - July 22, 2009

the idea that workers have to hold their tongue about injustice because other workers have suffered even more is poisonous.

Where is the injustice though? There’s no additional injustice in applying the consequences of a revenue shortfall to all sectors of the workforce. I don’t expect anyone to enjoy paying for the mistakes of others, but that’s the reality of what we’re all faced with.

he doesn’t want my pension attacked to satisfy some spurious idea of ‘equality’

Benchmarking was entirely built around that spurious notion. Except that it’s jettisoned once the benchmark drops downwards.

The point of the public sector cutbacks isn’t anything to do with equality nowever – it’s about the money not being there to continue the status quo, and what you choose to do about that.

Like

7. alastair - July 22, 2009

he’s pretty worried that the company can announce buoyant results, the share price surges – and yet they announce job cuts because, well, because they can. And one of the reasons they can, so easily, is lack of unions – the same unions he’s slagged me so mercilessly about in the past.

The unions didn’t help De Beers employees today, and I doubt that they would make much difference in Intel either. Unions have many benefits, but it’s asking a lot that they block lay-offs once that decision is made in a multinational operation like that.

Like

8. Crocodile - July 22, 2009

I was against benchmarking, Alastair, on exactly the grounds you mention. It valued people’s work on the evidence of a point in time, a snapshot instead of the full picture.
No, I don’t think unions can do much to keep multinationals in the country – but that doesn’t lead to the conclusion that no union is justified in defending its members’ pay and conditions. When public sector unions oppose the Snip cuts this autumn, I can just hear Aine Lawler asking:’ What have you got to say to your fellow workers in the private sector who don’t have your job security?’. That’s the dichotomy that has been engineered by government and media in the last year.

Like

9. WorldbyStorm - July 22, 2009

A couple of thoughts. Whatever ones views on such matters Crocodile isn’t personally responsible for these matters, so perhaps a little less of the snarky tone might be appropriate.

Secondly that’s not true alastair, there’s plenty outside the public sector that can afford such pensions, but… only if their employers are willing to gift them it. So only middle (if they’re lucky) and higher management tend to get them. And even when I was a mid to higher manager working for an MNC linked group of companies I was never offered one. When PRSAs were introduced in the early 2000s with the express purpose of making them both affordable and easy for companies to top up companies didn’t step up to the plate. So even if one were to argue that the PS pension structure was untenable in the long run, although that’s debatable, let’s not ignore the reality that private enterprise shrugged off its responsibilities in this regard. And if we’re talking about affordability how is it that the private sector which saw record profits during the same period as PS wages were increased didn’t see fit to amend that situation?

I’m not sure on what principle you believe that a public sector wage can never be higher than a private one, even like for like. After all, the private sector is rife with examples of how wages for similar jobs are all over the shop. If it’s an issue of affordability again then note that the stats are from 2007, a point where even Colm McCarthy thought the status quo ante was sustainable. Let’s look at todays wages and compare. And let’s also remember that PS wage cuts are in the mix later in the year. We’re moving towards ‘equity’ for all, and for all the good it may do our economy.

Tomaltach, I agree, there’s no point in the ‘we didn’t cause it’ mantra being pushed too much. But I think this feeling the pain equally stuff is also a fairly futile mantra, not least because during the better times there wasn’t a peep out of people about sharing the wealth equally. Indeed quite the opposite, we saw a firesale of taxes, etc…

And by the way, I too wasn’t too gone on ‘benchmarking’ any more than I was on the ASTI sub-labour elite theory of why teachers shouldn’t be in ICTU and why they deserved ‘better’ than other workers, or indeed the sometimes approach of unions to private sector employments as against public sector employments where the latter were, as with National Wage Agreements, much more left to fend for themselves.

I can also add that I’m very much in favour of wage cuts channeled towards stimulus and shoring up public provision rather than cuts in said public provision – from whatever part of the society.

Like

10. alastair - July 22, 2009

there’s plenty outside the public sector that can afford such pensions, but… only if their employers are willing to gift them it.

I’d love you to direct me to the commercial pension scheme that you believe matches public sector coverage. Because, having researched all the options available, and their overheads, in providing a fund for myself, I know it’s not available. That’s just the reality.

Of course, if overheads are ignored, anything is possible for an employer who wants to gift their employees with riches galore, and administer their own fund, but that would be outside the domain of what’s actually commercially affordable. Put it this way – I’m about the most generous benefactor employer I’m likely to meet, with all the advantages a company director can eke out of pension provision, and I couldn’t get within a mile of public sector provision for myself.

Like

11. WorldbyStorm - July 22, 2009

alastair, I was a non-exec director of a certain sort of consultancy which I won’t name for seven years this decade. During that time I saw money shovelled in by Directors and management to pension plans (I didn’t get one with the company for one reason or another). All commercially affordable, not defined benefit admittedly, but given the fact those involved will only be going looking for the pensions a while after this financial crisis is over on a global level all near guaranteed to see large percentages of their wages matched by the pensions, and in some instances in a position to retire earlier than 65.

Incidentally, that’s not to dismiss your experience. But it is to suggest that a lot depends on who you are and what your status in the company is, and of course how big the company is and at what age one starts… Nor is this to dismiss the point that the provision of pensions in this state stinks, but I can’t find it in me to see that as the Public Sectors fault, despite the fact I’m not eligible for a PS pension. I’ve said it before we have to rationalise our pension system. I’ve also noted that I haven’t been against the measures taken in the recent past in regard to the PS pensions.

Anyhow, here’s an interesting doc from last year from the Pensions Board which tells us a little about the take up of Defined Benefit/Defined Contribution schemes, PRSAs and Personal Pension Plans. I think the numbers in all those areas are very useful.

http://www.pensionsboard.ie/getFile.asp?FC_ID=640&docID=559

Re the PS side of the equation, remember this thread?

Warren Buffett admits “I did some dumb things in 2008″… like what Warren? Like investing in two Irish Banks…

Look at tossers contributions at #18, #24, #63

His figures suggest that PS workers are contributing about the 12 – 13% today (with the 6% plus from the mid 1990s and the pension levy) which if you purchase a private pension you need to put away from your salary to arrive at 2/3rds your final salary figure.

BTW, on a related issue to McCarthy, seen the recommendations under the D4 subheading of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism? I missed it the first time.

Like

12. anarchaeologist - July 22, 2009

Kudos for at least referring to it as the McCarthy Report. Constant references to An Bord Snip Nua have driven me demented over the past two weeks, as if the whole thing is really a bit of a joke to be treated like a sketch on Hall’s Pictorial Weekly.

Like

13. EWI - July 23, 2009

At a time when the productive capacity of the economy has dropped back sharply and the numbers paying in to the tax pool have collapsed, and given your acknowledgement that public sector pay is now higher than in the private sector, I find it absurd that public service pay wouldn’t be cut.

So, privatising reward and socializing risk then, eh? Plus ca change…

Like

14. EWI - July 23, 2009

And my oh my, how I’m enjoying the sight of the rats scuttling for cover as ACC Bank looks for their money back from our developer class. I feel like putting up a Dutch flag to honour the service to this country that Rabobank is performing…

(And FF too intent on avoiding a debate on McCarthy to come back and set up the lifeboat for their good friends that is NAMA)

Like

15. WorldbyStorm - July 23, 2009

Yeah, the ACC Bank thing is educative…

Like

16. Tomaltach - July 23, 2009

EWI,
privatising reward and socializing risk then

Yeah right. What happened to the pay of senior public service staff over the boom? The argument was rolled out that they had to match the private sector to attract talent. So they rocketed. Hence the salaries of the likes of Prof Drumm etc.
Then we had benchmarking (and I have no issue with the idea that public sector workers should get paid as well as their equivalents in the private sector.

EWI you make it sound like the poor old public service gained nothing from the boom while the entire private sector emerged dripping in wealth. Fact is most low paid workers are in the private sector.

I love the way your second comment 14 runs on from 13 as if in continuity “And my oh my”. Again the impression is to draw some equivalence between the Bank/Developer nexus and the bulk of ordinary private sector workers. Utterly ridiculous.

Like

17. alastair - July 23, 2009

here’s an interesting doc from last year from the Pensions Board which tells us a little about the take up of Defined Benefit/Defined Contribution schemes, PRSAs and Personal Pension Plans. I think the numbers in all those areas are very useful.

Not disputing those figures at all – the breakdown of pensions in this country is about 33% for; public sector defined benefit, private sector defined benefit, and private sector defined contribution. What’s more to the point is that the private sector DB schemes are legacy ones, with no new schemes on offer in years, and access to existing schemes is closed to new employees in 55% of cases. 20% of those private DB schemes have reduced benefit levels in the last two years, and a third of them are underfunded to the degree that they can’t support their commited benefits (despite average employer contribution rates doubling in the last 8 years). That’s the commercial reality of DB in the private sector.

His figures suggest that PS workers are contributing about the 12 – 13% today (with the 6% plus from the mid 1990s and the pension levy) which if you purchase a private pension you need to put away from your salary to arrive at 2/3rds your final salary figure.

McCarthy on the comparable cost of public sector pensions:

A High Court judge, appointed at the age of 50, would be able to retire at the age of 65 with a full pension, effectively adding 25 years to their service given that most public servants are only entitled to a full pension after 40 years of service.

In the case of a garda who joins at the age of 20 and retires at 50 on a full pension, a private sector employee would have to allocate 48 per cent of their salary each month to earn an equivalent pension.

Overall, a private sector employee would have to put away 27 per cent of their salary to earn the equivalent pension of a typical civil servant, rising to 31 per cent for teachers and 33 per cent for hospital consultants.

Like

18. alastair - July 23, 2009

BTW, on a related issue to McCarthy, seen the recommendations under the D4 subheading of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism? I missed it the first time.

No – I’d seen that. Not sure how to measure the usefulness of the IFB tbh. I was doing some work recently for an Irish film-maker who was selected to show at Sundance, and he wasn’t particularly impressed with the level of support he’d got from them over the years. There’s far more to get despondent about elsewhere in the report imo.

Like

19. Pavement Trauma - July 23, 2009

The value (and cost) of public service pensions is disproportionately higher for the better paid public servants (and disproportionately lower for the lower paid) because of the subtraction of the statutory pension (the ~210 euro a week) from their post retirement pension payments. Someone earning 42K at retirement with full pension gets 21K pension but ~11k of this comes from the statutory pension, so extra cost of pension is 10k. Someone earning 84k, gets 42K pension, with same 11K statutory deduction, so extra cost is 31K. Doubling the salary triples the pension cost.

What ever you think about the rights and wrongs of the PS pension levy, it was not weighted nearly heavily enough on the higher PS earners. A person on 25k paying 5%, while a person on 100K is paying only 8.8%, is utterly unfair given the relative costs of each.

I’m sure the fact that it was the higher earners who designed the levy is purely coincidental.

Like

20. Jim Monaghan - July 23, 2009

“What ever you think about the rights and wrongs of the PS pension levy, it was not weighted nearly heavily enough on the higher PS earners. A person on 25k paying 5%, while a person on 100K is paying only 8.8%, is utterly unfair given the relative costs of each.”
This is true and you could add that if 2 people joined the service and only one progressed. The proportion of salary paid by the unpromoted over the 40 years would be higher.
An extreme example if someone is promoted just 3 years before retirement they get the full pension st that scale while they have only being paying in that amount for 3 years.
We need to see some real pain at the top. The attack by the head of the Enterprise body on private sector workers while he point blank refused to forego the special extra award of 10%. He deserves the Ango Irish bank award for class war.
We need a progressive tax system introduced.

Like

21. WorldbyStorm - July 23, 2009

Tomaltach, you put your finger on one of the core reasons why pay rates rocketed… it was because of a direct wish by the government of the time to make the PS more business like. I’ve felt from the off that was a mistaken approach. Increase higher level pay rates and there is an inevitable pressure on lower pay rates. I’d wonder if that process had been engaged in would there have been the cover for some of the excesses of the bench marking process?

alastair, Still not sure what your gripe is. Defined Benefits in the PS doesn’t seem to me to be unreasonable in and of itself – although as it happens I am open to McCarthy’s suggestions on pensions. Actually, he argues that the govt. should note the issues as regard DB and that possible alternatives include either DC or an hybrid between DC/DB. The PS is the largest single employer in the state and therefore can generate efficiencies of scale others can’t, and sure that’s in part because such pensions are paid out of taxation, but how else short of restructuring the pension system entirely is that going to change.

If it’s an issue of affordability then the figures given by tosser seem to me to put the lie to any significant discrepancy between PS and private sector pensions. And the figures you quote indicate, quite obviously a difference between the private pension provision of 2/3rds of final salary (which is what I was told I’d be getting if I signed away all my monies) with the public pension one of 1/2. As regards early retirement, that too can and is built into private pensions.

On that note I’m also all for asking people in the PS to pay an increased premium if that’s what they want i.e. to retire early, but again, none of this appears to me to be an egregious insult on the part of the PS, nor if you read the text closely is it available across all the PS. I think there are solid reasons in terms of nature of work why teachers and Gardaí, and indeed those working in Health might well have had that option develop as a legacy, even if it is now necessary to rework it in order that more costs are put onto those individuals who seek it.

But look, the real problem here is that there is no proper universal pension coverage in this state. What I want, and I’ve said it on numerous times before, is a generous liveable pension provision for all citizens which those who wish to can top up further through their own payments. So, no more public sector pensions of the style we have now, and arguably no more private pensions of the style that are the only option available to you or me. Instead pensions funded by taxation and wage deductions from all and then paid back at a proper rate.

Now, tell me, where do we disagree on any of that?

On a small point as regards the report I can’t quite work out how they square the circle of:

“it seems prudent to reinstate a mandatory retirement age and not run the risk that low performing members of staff would end up being retained indefinitely;”

“• the ages at which people qualify for pension in both State occupational and social welfare schemes should be revised upwards, taking account of the significant recent increases in
longevity;”

Are they suggesting that there would be a gap between retirement and pension? Or at what point is the mandatory retirement age to be introduced?

PT, I very much agree with you as it happens and that links right into my point above.

Like

22. WorldbyStorm - July 23, 2009

alastair, actually I wasn’t thinking of the IFB in particular. Here are the other bodies funded under the D4 heading but not listed in the Report:

Archbishop Marsh’s Library
Irish Architectural Archive
National Print Museum
James Joyce Centre
Irish Manuscripts Commission (that’ll be amalgamated with the National Library and National Archives)
The Hunt Museum Limerick
Foynes Flying Boat Museum Foynes Co. Limerick
Cork Butter Museum

Like

23. alastair - July 23, 2009

If it’s an issue of affordability then the figures given by tosser seem to me to put the lie to any significant discrepancy between PS and private sector pensions. And the figures you quote indicate, quite obviously a difference between the private pension provision of 2/3rds of final salary (which is what I was told I’d be getting if I signed away all my monies) with the public pension one of 1/2.

There’s the thing though – tosser’s figures are well off the mark. The public sector pension deal can’t be matched by any private sector employer – the only comparable deals out there are offered to union employees (The INTO employees scheme being one that I’m familiar with). When you spoke to the ba’nk people, all they had to offer was a notional interest rate over x years providing an annuity if x value. The problem there is that they typically assume rather rosey sustained interest rates (that historically haven’t proven to be true), and again a rather rose-tinted projection of what your annuity might be worth at retirement. It’s voodoo to suggest that anyone can provide any sort of accurate insight as to what your fund will be worth at retirement – the only certainty is that the more you put in, the better your chances of both losing your shirt and getting a decent pension at the end of the day. Beyond that the bank was bullshitting you. So 1/2 of your final salary (parity linked to all future salary increases of your position natch!) plus a year and a half of those final wages is a far, far better deal that aiming at a notional 2/3 of your final salary, without any certainty about what you’ll actually end up with.

Like

24. alastair - July 23, 2009

Foynes Flying Boat Museum Foynes Co. Limerick

Never been down there, but always fancied a gander.

Like

25. Crocodile - July 23, 2009

Talked about this this afternoon with someone who works in pensions and he made the following points:
Alastair is right that nobody in a private company can now afford public service levels of defined benefit provision; so is WbyS when he says this is largely the fault of private service employers.
Most public service pensions are a max of 40/80ths of final earnings, but this is seldom mentioned.
Only 1% – yes, one – of secondary teachers work a full forty years for a full pension. The usual pattern is that it takes till their late twenties to find a full-time job, then they spend their thirties and forties ploughing every penny they can into buying back ‘notional service’ so they can retire at 60.
The calculation of pensions on ‘final earnings’ means that a primary school principal can’t finish her career back in the classroom, giving the principal’s job to someone younger and fitter, without sacrificing a huge chunk of her pension.
It seems to me that Mc Carthy has put his finger on a few of these problems, like the cost of ‘notional service’ and the final earnings trap, but shows no understanding at all of the context in which these things have arisen. I suppose that wasn’t his remit.

Like

26. WorldbyStorm - July 23, 2009

Yeah, curiously though alastair I managed to come to that conclusion myself and decided to avoid paying massive sums in – or rather my income decided for me. I’m stuck with the public pension. Ah well. 😦

But that’s still not quite the point is it? It still remains that the general PS worker putting 12-13% in across a lifetime of work from their early to mid 20s to retirement at 65 (exceptions such as the Gardai and Teachers taking early retirement not included) is putting in a similar figure as a percentage as a private sector worker who is willing to buy a private pension and put in the same amount and come out with 1/2 the last three years of their salary as distinct from the nominal figure which banks offer of 2/3rds of final salary (that assumes that the private sector worker starts at 27 and the growth rate is 4 to 6% per annum which is what it was for the 1990s into the 2000s. The difference is between 1/2 (public sector) and 2/3rds (private sector). Some would think the risk, such as it is, worth it for the extra money.

I’m not sure therefore why you think tossers figures are wrong. Again if its the defined benefit aspect that concerns you then read again what McCarthy is proposing, Beyond moving from a fully DB scheme, which I’ve pointed out I support, he’s agnostic about it, particularly when he’s willing to contemplate a hybrid DB/DC as well as a DC.

Of course for those of us like me who started late it’s a pain in the ass. But then as Crocodile notes if you’re a PS worker who comes in late to the scheme you have to make additional payments in addition to your ordinary contributions and IIRC you won’t match the final pension level of someone who has been in service since their early 20s.

Like

27. alastair - July 24, 2009

It still remains that the general PS worker putting 12-13% in across a lifetime of work from their early to mid 20s to retirement at 65 (exceptions such as the Gardai and Teachers taking early retirement not included) is putting in a similar figure as a percentage as a private sector worker who is willing to buy a private pension and put in the same amount and come out with 1/2 the last three years of their salary as distinct from the nominal figure which banks offer of 2/3rds of final salary (that assumes that the private sector worker starts at 27 and the growth rate is 4 to 6% per annum which is what it was for the 1990s into the 2000s. The difference is between 1/2 (public sector) and 2/3rds (private sector). Some would think the risk, such as it is, worth it for the extra money.

Except that no-one’s been putting 12-13% into their public service pension up until the last few months, no-one who’s been putting whatever % of salary into a DC scheme since they took over from DB schemes has actually fulfilled the promised 4-6% per annum over half the life of their fund (the last ten years have been pretty much tepid or just plain bad).

Whatever way you look at it – there’s simply no comparison between the value on return for a public service pension and what’s available to private sector workers. Writing off this reality on the back of an unwillingness of private sector employers to provide comparible DB schemes ignores the fact that it’s commercially impossible for employers to do so – a fact that should be clear enough when you review the state of so many legacy private sector DB funds. The costs of running such funds have simply raced ahead of the capacity of the companies to pay – even where there’s the best will and intent in the world.

Like

28. WorldbyStorm - July 24, 2009

Except that no-one’s been putting 12-13% into their public service pension up until the last few months, no-one who’s been putting whatever % of salary into a DC scheme since they took over from DB schemes has actually fulfilled the promised 4-6% per annum over half the life of their fund (the last ten years have been pretty much tepid or just plain bad).

And the next ten could be brilliant. Who knows?

I’m not really sure what your point is here. Are you saying that the PS has to be in lockstep with the private sector as regards pensions provision?

That’s tricky because as the Pensions Board doc notes there are still over 450,000 private sector employees in DB schemes (and by the way not all DB schemes have closed to new entrants there so it’s not correct to say that they’ve ‘taken over’). That’s over 2/3rds of all private sector workers who have pensions being in DB schemes.

Are you certain you’re not confusing schemes within companies with what you or I could go into a bank or financial services company and purchase as individuals. I’ll be willing to be that for people in our position that has been the reality for a considerable length of time (unless we have shedloads of money to pour into a scheme).

So, to continue. If 2/3rds of private sector workers with pensions are still in DB schemes is it therefore per se unreasonable that the bulk PS workers should equally be in one?

As it happens I don’t think so, but I’m also happy enough to see a hybrid system develop in the PS, although, and here’s my huge caveat, it doesn’t do a damn thing for me whether the PS or the private sector continue on their current merry way.

I won’t get a pension other than the state pension and we all know how well I’ll be living off that come – touch wood – 2030.

Of course the figures above that you quote don’t tell the whole story. Private sector pension holders are able to write off large chunks of their pension to tax relief, something that is only available to those public sector workers who purchase AVCs. So that evens the field somewhat. Secondly lower wages across the lifetime of most of those in the PS will also be a factor, wages that are set to drop again this Autumn. The 2002/2007 period which we could term the ‘benchmarking era’ is I’d suspect anomalous.

Whatever way you look at it – there’s simply no comparison between the value on return for a public service pension and what’s available to private sector workers. Writing off this reality on the back of an unwillingness of private sector employers to provide comparible DB schemes ignores the fact that it’s commercially impossible for employers to do so – a fact that should be clear enough when you review the state of so many legacy private sector DB funds. The costs of running such funds have simply raced ahead of the capacity of the companies to pay – even where there’s the best will and intent in the world.

It still comes back to what employers who were the instrument that private sector workers were meant to gain pensions were/are willing to pay and what products are on offer (you noted yourself previously that one of the motive causes why companies aren’t buying into DC schemes is because fund managers aren’t making them available because they get a better profit from DC schemes than DB schemes.). To say that this is all down to a ‘commercial impossibility’ ignores the fact that profitable enterprises, particularly highly profitable enterprises, over the past decade have shifted away from DB to DC. In the UK the figures are revelatory. In 2003 half of all pension schemes open to new employees were DB, in 2007 a quarter and in 2008 a sixth. There was evidence of an upswing last year that was stymied by the recession. The reasons for the shift away from DB given by companies has been tighter regulation, greater life expectancy, volatile markets. But you’ll also hear that consultants in the area argue that even today it is possible to put in place good DB schemes. So I’m dubious about the proposition that companies are simply unable to pay, some most certainly aren’t and that’s a problem. Others most definitely are.

Again, my view is that a hybrid system should be introduced and extended to all workers, that state companies and employees – whether public or private sector – should have to make compulsory contributions and that if people want to get more on top they can pay for it. But of course that’s also tricky because then we’re not into a rather pointless dispute between the PS and the private sector that has pensions both of whom get vastly superior deals to the rest of us, but more importantly into trying to reform both and ensure that all citizens get an equitable deal.

I see nothing to be gained by dragging down one of those pillars at the exclusion of the other, particularly when my taxes are impacted by tax relief for people on wages vastly better than mine who can afford, or are lucky enough to hvae employers who will pay, to get pension provision in the private sector and tax relief on top.

Like

29. Crocodile - July 24, 2009

‘So that evens the field somewhat. Secondly lower wages across the lifetime of most of those in the PS will also be a factor, wages that are set to drop again this Autumn. The 2002/2007 period which we could term the ‘benchmarking era’ is I’d suspect anomalous.’

Very interesting article by Paul Sweeney in the Business section of today’s IT pointing out that, contrary to what we’re led to believe, many private sector workers have received increases this year: “The Ibec survey of last week…shows that more production workers are getting pay increases than are taking cuts…Most firms are freezing wages and salaries, not cutting them. For some in the private sector, but for none in the public sector, real wages and earnings may actually rise.”
Makes you wonder why so many attacks on public sector workers begin with a formulation along the lines of: ‘at a time when private sector workers are taking huge pay cuts etc….’ According to Ibec’s own figures, you’re more likely to have had an increase than a cut, if you work in the private sector, while in the public sector you’re guaranteed to have had a cut. You’d read a lot of Sunday Indos before you’d see that acknowledged.

Like

30. WorldbyStorm - July 25, 2009

That’s very important as well. A real problem in the broader discussion in the media is to take absolutist positions as if they are the descriptor for all that occurs when, as you note (and indeed alastair as well) there is a degree of complexity to the situation. Neither public nor private sectors are undifferentiated entities.

BTW, talking of the private sector I wasn’t much impressed by Mary Coughlan’s comments on architects etc not feeling the pain yet. Yeah, right.

Like

31. crocodile - July 25, 2009

Ditto farmers. We’re so used to a caricature of farmers driving SUVs full of subsidy cheques that it’s hard to find any understanding in the media of they’re suffering at the moment.

Like

32. Jim Monaghan - July 27, 2009

“We’re so used to a caricature of farmers driving SUVs full of subsidy cheques that it’s hard to find any understanding in the media of they’re suffering at the moment.”

There are differences between big and small farmers. It si a bit like the pharmacy campaign. There is possibly a case to be made for a small one in say Achill but the truth is that the cahins ect were creaming it.
There is a thing that a lot of interest groups use the poorer end to justify their lavish treatment.
The older Bruton is a recipicent of EU grants.
Awful as it seems I am tempted to say.
You signed up for globalisation and this is it.
Why should some people suffer for globalisation like the diamond workers in Shannon and others be sheltered.
Farmers run small businesses the market logic is that there should be no difference between them and any other business. There is a sort of “yeomen farmers of where ever” ideology, sold by peasant leaders throughout Europe that they are the real nation and ebveryone else is not.
Wheter we like it or not modernasation has to happen. Depriving the third world of markets and compensating with the odd traumatised goat. Farmers whose holding are not economic should be treated like workers whose jobs disappear due to technology cahnge or globalisation. Tough but same for everyone.
Letting off a bit of steam. I think that to both sides in the last referendum it was awful how the farmers blackmailed the Gov. with total hypocrisy.
I come form a farming background and I find the IFA as if the ICTU included the senior bankers as well.
Anyone remember Eoghan harris diatribe against farmers at a WUI conference befor ehe became Brutons best friend.

Like

33. alastair - July 27, 2009

I’m not really sure what your point is here. Are you saying that the PS has to be in lockstep with the private sector as regards pensions provision?

That’s tricky because as the Pensions Board doc notes there are still over 450,000 private sector employees in DB schemes (and by the way not all DB schemes have closed to new entrants there so it’s not correct to say that they’ve ‘taken over’). That’s over 2/3rds of all private sector workers who have pensions being in DB schemes.

My point is that public service pensions can’t be matched by anything available in the pricate sectorm, and it’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

2/3rds of private sector pensions are certainly not DB schemes – 1/2 of current private sector pensions are DB – and falling rapidly as access to those schemes has been removed to new employees in over half the schemes. No new DB schemes have been set up for literally years. I’d call that a takeover by DC schemes.

Like

34. alastair - July 27, 2009

Private sector pension holders are able to write off large chunks of their pension to tax relief, something that is only available to those public sector workers who purchase AVCs. So that evens the field somewhat.

All public sector wokers can purchase AVC’s, so I’m not sure where the advantage lies.

Like

35. alastair - July 27, 2009

The 2002/2007 period which we could term the ‘benchmarking era’ is I’d suspect anomalous.

I’d suspect otherwise. I reckon there’s at least ten years where public sector pay has been at least equal or better than equivalent private pay, taking into account the pension premium.

Like

36. alastair - July 27, 2009

It still comes back to what employers who were the instrument that private sector workers were meant to gain pensions were/are willing to pay and what products are on offer (you noted yourself previously that one of the motive causes why companies aren’t buying into DC schemes is because fund managers aren’t making them available because they get a better profit from DC schemes than DB schemes.). To say that this is all down to a ‘commercial impossibility’ ignores the fact that profitable enterprises, particularly highly profitable enterprises, over the past decade have shifted away from DB to DC.

You assume that the shift from DB to DC is about maximising profits – what if it’s simply about the impossibility of continuing them because costs threaten to sink the business providing them? You can’t suggest that 90% of DB funds have been run down to precarious levels because 90% of employers offering them got their head turned by a quick buck? Look at the state of the ESB pension fund – that model of state competancy and strong unionisation – they’re as deep in the shit as the rest of the private sector funds.

Like

37. WorldbyStorm - July 27, 2009

By “anything” available in the private sector? Really, that’s not what the PwC report says today, or indeed what the Pensions Board doc I linked to said last year. In both instances large numbers of the private sector were on defined benefit pensions, todays report from PwC indicates that most companies are actually able to pay the defined benefit pension.

Do you mean that pension providers won’t offer DB schemes? Not so, both here and in the UK DB scheme products are still available to companies.

You’re right, my mistake, if we throw in PRSA’s then about 1/2 are DB. And they are in the main part still functioning even if, as noted today, 20% are ‘considering’ exiting from DBs.

The point re AVCs is that both pension types, private or public are funded through the public purse to some degree. I can’t say I’m hugely riled in that context if a larger percentage of a pension for a public employee is funded by the employer, the state, than that of a private employee.

Underlying this is a further truth which is that in both public and private sectors there has been considerable change in the area of pensions in the past decade and in particular in the past five years. Both have legacy issues, and hence… enter my thoughts on universalism, etc.

Like

38. WorldbyStorm - July 27, 2009

re #36 PwC doesn’t say it’s 90%. PwC suggests it’s 30% of all employers in both DB and DC areas, indeed PwC is very clear that DC pension provision in companies is in as bad if not worse shape than DB because companies are only putting 4-7% into them which is completely inadequate. Worse again they’re reducing the amount they’re putting in

Like

39. Dr. X - July 27, 2009

There was a short piece in yesterday’s Tribune about the Irish Film Classification Office. Apparently the McCarthy recommends that it be folded into the broadcasting commission, in pursuit of savings.

Thing is – according to the Trib – the IFCO is self-financing, through charges to the film distribution companies and through the sale of a former premises.

Now, this may not be true. . . or it may be true, and the MCarthy report’s alleged error may be an unrepresentative glitch . . . or maybe this indicates that the McCarthy report might have more than a few errors of fact in it. . .

Like

40. WorldbyStorm - July 27, 2009

Re 35, since 99? Not sure what the figures are that allow you to come to that conclusion.

Like

41. alastair - July 27, 2009
42. alastair - July 27, 2009

By “anything” available in the private sector? Really, that’s not what the PwC report says today, or indeed what the Pensions Board doc I linked to said last year. In both instances large numbers of the private sector were on defined benefit pensions, todays report from PwC indicates that most companies are actually able to pay the defined benefit pension.

The pensions board link only quantifies the numbers on each type – not the benefits – 20% of those private sector schemes have reduced benefits to their contributors, and none have salary-linked increases.

And an ability to pay today’s pension outgoings has very little to do with the future capacity to pay. Pension funds haven’t even managed to keep pace with inflation for the last ten years.

Like

43. Crocodile - July 27, 2009

Interesting feature on Monday’s Pat Kenny Show. Correspondents in France, Germany, Italy and Sweden were asked about the public service in those countries – size, pay levels, ‘reform’ etc. The results puzzled Pat. All those countries have, in different ways, bigger public services than ours (a third of French workers employed by the state).But are their governments not seeking huge cuts, ‘reforming’ to ease the burden on the ‘real’ economy?
Well, no. The correspondents had a story or two ready about the bureaucracy and the inflexibility of public officials on their respective patches – but there have been no pay cuts or cuts in numbers and, it seems, that’s not an approach that would occur to anyone. Lara Marlowe had a good laugh at the idea of a French ‘Bord Snip’. Indeed, as she pointed out, France is recovering quicker than most countries precisely because of the size of its public sector, with secure jobs and spending with confidence.The English reporter in Stockholm disappointed Pat, when asked about the crippling taxes he must be paying: now that he has a wife and family, he replied, he sees the point of it all and doesn’t begrudge the tax burden.
What one took away from the feature was how amazingly right wing our media consensus is ( see John McManus in today’s IT). These people will not be satisfied until manners are put on public employees, whether it helps the national finances or not – it has become an end in itself. Everything from the price of petrol to swine flu, is for them, evidence of the need for public service ‘reform’.

Like

44. WorldbyStorm - July 27, 2009

alastair, the bottom line is that if you’re lucky enough to be looking for a job and find yourself employed by either the public sector or tranches of the private sector up to and including today then you will get a defined benefit pension. In either instance tax payers like me who don’t get the benefit of either are paying towards those pensions. I’m genuinely at a loss to understand why one seems to irk you so much and the other doesn’t.

Or perhaps they both do… I just don’t know. But I see which you seem to see as the problem…

Either way the only equitable way forward is the dumping of both and their replacement by proper universal pensions and for those who want it an AVC scheme on top…

Interesting Crocodile, it doesn’t (as you’ll guess!) surprise me. I heard a piece on social welfare on an RTE radio business podcast recently and who did they go and talk to – why someone from Germany and someone from Singapore. Singapore FFS!

Like

45. alastair - July 28, 2009

I’m genuinely at a loss to understand why one seems to irk you so much and the other doesn’t.

The point that irks me is the continued fiction that public service pensions are not demonstrably superior to anything available to the private sector – they are cheaper for contributors, provide a security of payment that just isn’t there with private funds (because they aren’t tied to the success of fund management and the vagaries of the market – but to the exchequer), offer salary-linked parity rather than the best-case index linking elsewhere, and are available to 100% of full-time workers rather than the small minority lucky enough to have access to legacy schemes outside the public sector – schemes which offer a poorer return on contributions and, in many cases, are compromised by underfunding as a consequence of the performance of the market.

The bottom line is, once again, that the commercial pensions sphere simply can’t match the benefits and security that a public service pension provides, and I can’t see how those benefits could be rolled out beyond the limited numbers within the public sector without a massive payment of premium in contribution levels (of the scale that makes them uncommercial for everyone else at the moment).

I speak as one who is going to hop on board the public service pension bandwagon later this year. The preferential benefits will accrue to me, so I’m not irked out of spite – it’s just that mutton isn’t lamb, however you dress it up.

Like

46. WorldbyStorm - July 28, 2009

Perhaps we’re getting somewhere.

The point that irks me is the continued fiction that public service pensions are not demonstrably superior to anything available to the private sector – they are cheaper for contributors, provide a security of payment that just isn’t there with private funds (because they aren’t tied to the success of fund management and the vagaries of the market – but to the exchequer), offer salary-linked parity rather than the best-case index linking elsewhere, and are available to 100% of full-time workers rather than the small minority lucky enough to have access to legacy schemes outside the public sector – schemes which offer a poorer return on contributions and, in many cases, are compromised by underfunding as a consequence of the performance of the market.

You continue to say that as if it were a self-evident truth. There are many pensions schemes in the private sector that regularly outperform those in the public sector giving returns of 2/3rds of final salary to those on them. That’s much greater than the 1/2 which is the generality of those on the public sector pensions.

The caveats that you throw in at the end as regards the performance of private pensions are broadly speaking an artifact of the past decade when there has been a decided shift from DB to DC and for some reason a sudden inability to pay on the part of some private sector employers.

If your argument devolves to sheer numbers, i.e. the public sector gives good pensions to almost all its staff (as I’m on contract I don’t get one… never will, indeed one of my two contracts was crafted by my employers specifically to prevent me getting a pension) whereas the private sector doesn’t bother its barney three thoughts strike me.

Firstly the public sector is an employer and it is entirely within its gift to determine what conditions its employees work under.

Secondly there is an educative or exemplary aspect to the state in its operations (I note above your comment #1 re how the wage gap between public and private might be a function of the former actually implementing parity of wages – from my experience the disparities in wages between men and women in the private sector are nothing short of a disgrace). In other words it should be an example of best practice. That might be a hybrid scheme.

But it’s hard to see how that would satisfy your irritation since there will still be scores of workers, myself included, working on contract or in the private sector, who will not be covered and while you swan into the future with your new pension (and all good luck to you) I’ll see nothing. Which makes your complaints remain odd, since short of dismantling public sector pensions what else could one do to ‘even’ the playing field so that it was genuinely ‘equitable’. And even then that wouldn’t be enough, one would have to dismantle private pensions as well.

Thirdly that this is at root a failing of the private sector (and of the broader structures whereby government, not the public sector, has refused to discharge its obligations to citizens). If employers are unwilling to make any provision for their workers, which is the situation for most workers, I simply don’t see how that is the ‘fault’ of the public sector.

And I see nothing in McCarthy, incidentally, that would materially alter this situation. Again, why not? Perhaps because the entirety, not just the specific, is inequitable. And again, none of this would address your central irritation.

The bottom line is, once again, that the commercial pensions sphere simply can’t match the benefits and security that a public service pension provides, and I can’t see how those benefits could be rolled out beyond the limited numbers within the public sector without a massive payment of premium in contribution levels (of the scale that makes them uncommercial for everyone else at the moment).

If in your view there is no way of doing it then I think there’s little point in you continuing to comment on this site because the point of this site and others is to direct people’s attention to alternatives, not just hypothetical ones, but ones that are actually in practice. It’s not just an airy belief, in Sweden as in a number of other states universal pension provision at a reasonable level is a given. The funding mechanisms are very clear and more importantly they function well and have continued to do so over the past decade. Other societies such as New Zealand have moved forcefully in the direction of compulsory pension schemes for all citizens, look up the KiwiSaver.

I speak as one who is going to hop on board the public service pension bandwagon later this year. The preferential benefits will accrue to me, so I’m not irked out of spite – it’s just that mutton isn’t lamb, however you dress it up.

So then you’re in precisely the same boat as any worker in this state who at one time or another makes a choice or is given the opportunity as regards an employer and enters that employment knowing that conditions will vary, etc. You know my thoughts re universalism, etc as a solution.

What are you suggesting though? That the public sector deconstruct its pension provision? Or that it bring it down to a level comparable with the private sector?

But if so comparable with what part of the private sector? The unpensioned part? The minority of schemes which are DC. The majority, barely, of schemes which are DB? And if this is evidence of some great fault, at what point was it committed? Five years ago? This year? Twenty years ago?

I still don’t get it though. Some pensions for some private sector workers provide better benefits than public sector pensions. More workers, but not all, get pension coverage in the public sector. How does one average out any of that? It’s simply not possible in the way that you appear to be tackling this? The inherent contradictions of public sector/some private sector pensions/many unpensioned don’t lend themselves to any fix – again I suspect that’s why McCarthy is unusually reticent in his suggestions.

And finally, have you read Irish government pensions policy, one of the notable aspects of the Green Paper and the machinations since, particularly late last year and early this has been to retain DB schemes where in situ. What you seem to propose cuts right across that.

Like

47. Crocodile - July 28, 2009

‘in Sweden as in a number of other states universal pension provision at a reasonable level is a given.’
My brother once had a long conversation with a Swedish MP, who said that it wasn’t that he disagreed with people with people like the British Tories or the Republicans in the US; he simply didn’t understand them. Why would anybody want to get into politics to reduce the level of social provision or to increase social inequality?
I’m glad Alastair comments on here because his assumptions are shared by so many of those who rule us and write our newspapers – we need to refine our arguments by measuring them against his. Just as the Swedish bloke took it as a given that politics meant working for equality, there’s an orthodoxy in our country that assumes that you start every debate with the bottom line, financially, and work backwards from that. Anyone who disagrees with you isn’t living in the ‘real world’ because the real world is the business world. Pat Kenny called this country ‘Ireland Inc.’ three times yesterday morning.

Like

48. WorldbyStorm - July 29, 2009

BTW, alastair, go look at the Green Paper, page 134… Table 9.1… you’ll see that between Dec 1996 and Dec 2006 the number of members of private defined benefit schemes in Ireland rose from 412,641 to 542,362. Granted the number on DC schemes rose from 88,759 to 255,008 and the number of DB schemes fell from 2,290 to 1,411. But I think if we’re looking at numbers of people on such schemes it’s near impossible to argue that DB is dead or that people were unable, if they were fortunate enough to find an employer offering such a scheme, to access them.

Crocodile, I find the Ireland Inc. stuff the typical boosterism of people – particularly in media and academia – who like to throw shapes that they’re business savvy. Most serious business people of my acquaintance are rather quieter about such matters, being involved y’know, in the business of keeping their businesses going. Although I guess in fairness there’s a tendency to the former approach approach in many walks of life…

I’d agree strongly with your second point. Take McCarthy. It’s easy to default to the notion that everything McCarthy proposes is bad, and in my experience of it so far certain measures if implemented really are bad. But one can find aspects of it very useful indeed even if disagreeing with the thrust. Problem I find is that too many seem to be defaulting the opposite way that its holy writ and the yardstick by which all else should/must be measured.

Like

49. Crocodile - July 29, 2009

Re McCarthy, WbyS. The headlines this morning about the Mid-West task force concentrate on what?: the minimum wage and social welfare rates. As far as RTE is concerned, that’s the story. It took Denis Brosnan, of all people, to remind the RTE business reporter, eager to find yet more reasons to punish the poor, that costs such as energy and waste are at least as important when it comes to competitiveness.

Like

50. alastair - July 29, 2009

If in your view there is no way of doing it then I think there’s little point in you continuing to comment on this site because the point of this site and others is to direct people’s attention to alternatives, not just hypothetical ones, but ones that are actually in practice. It’s not just an airy belief, in Sweden as in a number of other states universal pension provision at a reasonable level is a given.

Oh please. I’ve made my position clear – what irks me is the pretense that public service pension provision is available to private sector workers – it’s not, and you can’t buy it even if you want to (clue – I wanted to!).
I don’t begrudge good pension schemes for anyone who wants to opt in to them – but our public service pension arrangements aren’t evet going to be a model for universal provision. Swedish pensions require higher contributions than our public service requires, lead to annuities rather than defined benefit, and are cost-of-living indexed, rather than salary-linked. It’s a great system, but it’s not providing the same degree of return on input that public service pensions provide. Like I said – there’s no way the terms of public service pensions could be rolled out to everyone.

Like

51. alastair - July 29, 2009

But I think if we’re looking at numbers of people on such schemes it’s near impossible to argue that DB is dead or that people were unable, if they were fortunate enough to find an employer offering such a scheme, to access them.

The facts of the matter are that 55% of existing DB schemes are closed to new employees, 20% have reduced their provision to new employees, and no-one is setting up new DB schemes. Of those DB schemes that are ongoing, many (probably a large majority if actuaries are to be believed) are underfunded to the degree that their ability to serve recipients long term is compromised. Meanwhile DC schemes are multiplying at a rapid rate. It doesn’t take a genius to see what way the wind is blowing.

Like

52. alastair - July 29, 2009

Just as the Swedish bloke took it as a given that politics meant working for equality, there’s an orthodoxy in our country that assumes that you start every debate with the bottom line, financially, and work backwards from that.

Do you honestly think that the Swedish model of pension provision doesn’t need to take account of the bottom line?

Like

53. Crocodile - July 29, 2009

‘Do you honestly think that the Swedish model of pension provision doesn’t need to take account of the bottom line?’
No, but then I never said that. I said that they don’t *start* there and then work out their level of public provision. They see what’s needed and then set about paying for it.

Like

54. alastair - July 29, 2009

They see what’s needed and then set about paying for it.

That still requires a bottom line. The very reason why Sweden revised their pension provison arrangements themselves.

Like

55. WorldbyStorm - July 29, 2009

alastair, that last comment smacks of the very worst of trying to have the last word in a discussion. I mean what does it even mean given that Crocodile never said there was no need for a bottom line.

Re the other stuff, you keep saying that there’s something wrong because you can’t buy a pension. Tough. You could, if you so wished join a private sector company which offers a DB plan, you could do it today, just as if you so wished up until the embargoes join the PS with a DB plan. The state is in this instance an employer which offers a certain sort of plan. No greater wrong is inflicted by it in doing so than in the reality that only some companies in the private sector offer DBs and it’s really time you got your head around that.

Again you keep reiterating that there’s no pension plan equal to the PS. That’s also wrong. Enough money in the private sector – you’ll get it,. Lucky enough to join a company with a DB scheme that is well enough funded – you’ll get it. Or go to the PS – you’ll get it.

And your seeming solution, that if you were able to walk out today on whatever your chosen wage and purchase a DB scheme the equal of (most not all) of the PS you’d be content… sort of undermines your argument about inequity…

The real injustice here is that there are hundreds of thousands outside both those regimens and until we introduce a Swedish style system or something very close to it we’re going to have the twin injustices of PS/private sector pension schemes.

Who, incidentally, you’re arguing this with I’m not entirely sure.

Like

56. alastair - July 29, 2009

I mean what does it even mean given that Crocodile said that they never said there was a bottom line

It means that everyone has to pay heed (whether at the beginning, middle, or end) to the bottom line. Otherwise it’s a waste of everyone’s time.

Re the other stuff, you keep saying that there’s something wrong because you can’t buy a pension. Tough. You could,

Eh – no I couldn’t. And nor can anyone else who has any regard for staying in business. Tell me – what stopped you signing up for a nice DB scheme when you were talking to the bank? Point me towards the DB products available in the pensions market and let’s see the scheme that offers ongoing salary-linked pension payment. You can’t because they’re not available.

Again you keep reiterating that there’s no pension plan equal to the PS. That’s also wrong. Enough money in the private sector – you’ll get it,. Lucky enough to join a company with a DB scheme that is well enough funded – you’ll get it. Or go to the PS – you’ll get it.

I’ll concede that the PS scheme is indeed equal to the, eh, PS scheme. Otherwise you’re wrong. Maybe you could point out just one private sector scheme that offers a salary-linked pension of any description?

And your seeming solution, that if you were able to walk out today on whatever your chosen wage and purchase a DB scheme the equal of (most not all) of the PS you’d be content… sort of undermines your argument about inequity…

There is no ‘solution’ . The PS scheme as it’s been framed is a subsidy that can’t be applied in any universal scheme, nor in any commercial environment – it’s a sad reality. A Swedish set-up would be great, but it be inferior to the current PS offering.

Like

57. Crocodile - July 29, 2009

When I want to go on holiday, but have no money, I stay at home: that’s taking account of the bottom line.
When my child needs new shoes, out comes the credit card: that’s taking account of the bottom line, too, but giving it the correct priority.
A government that cuts the minimum wage or sacks SNAs in primary schools has lost the capacity to make that distinction.
Of course, I can’t buy the shoes, then ring the credit card company and say I won’t pay, because I can’t afford it. I’ve done a deal – the money isn’t mine any more. Likewise the government can’t tear up pension agreements under which workers have committed their whole careers.

Like

58. alastair - July 29, 2009

Likewise the government can’t tear up pension agreements under which workers have committed their whole careers.

Well, they clearly can, and just as the credit card company will chase you to kingdom come to pay the money you still owe them, there’s no avoiding the reality that the government might well have to do lots of unfortunate things to keep within the bounds of what their income and outgoings allow.

Like

59. WorldbyStorm - July 29, 2009

re #56, I think Crocodiles previous response implicitly indicated an awareness of that fact.

Re the rest…

The reason I don’t have a pension is that I’ve never been paid anywhere near enough during almost twenty years in the private sector to be able to afford one good bad or indifferent. That’s the reason. Not because the products aren’t there, just the amount I’d have to pour in would be too great.

At the start of this thread you suggested:

“where you’ve got a pension that no-one outside the public sector can afford”

From the off I’ve simply pointed out that there are those in the Private Sector who can afford better pensions than those in the Public Sector. That’s a fact. It actually isn’t a function of DB or DC, as with my case it’s a function of money and how much an individual or a company can afford. The more a company can pour in, and let’s be serious, there are companies that are well able to fund extravagant pensions for certain levels of employees, the more the employee will receive. Company Directors, higher management, middle management, etc etc. Those people in the private sector who are retiring on up to 66% of final wages and with a tax free lump sum of up to 25% of a fund.

You claimed that DB schemes in the private sector are now legacy with no new access to new employees in over 55% of cases. I showed that while the number of DB schemes in the private sector has dropped up to 2006/7 the numbers covered increased significantly and they remain open to new entrants and the majority form of scheme.

You should now go to page 224 of the Green Paper PDF and examine the sums that PS workers retiring after 40 years get in light of the reforms in pensions since 2004.

You appear fairly hung up on the PS, to the extent that you seemingly won’t even accept there are people in private sector DB pension plans who are walking away, and will continue to walk away, with more than most in the PS. I have sat on Boards and seen it happen. By the by, salary linked works both ways, and no doubt November December will bring more on that.

Like

60. CMK - July 29, 2009

I’ve been, sort of, following this debate and the perspectives presented here have been informative and interesting.

However, I think WBS’s comment above, about not being able to afford to contribute, is the essence of the debate.

Regardless of whether DB pensions are available on the market now, for most workers around the average industrial wage, private pensions are a luxury.

Given that many private and semi-state funds are in serious trouble, the end product is going to be a huge tranche of workers solely dependent on the state pension in the decades ahead.

Assuming, of course, that the state pension survives in a recognisable form, and pensioners don’t have to break rocks for twenty hours a week for their pension…..

In a context where pay cuts of up to 25% are, so we’re constantly told, standard in the private sector, I’m not sure any more-or-less modestly remunerated private sector worker will be able to afford to make any kind of contribution over the short to medium term (10 to 15 years?).

Pensioners, I think, should be and are going to be a key constituentcy for the left in the future and may well be more amenable to radical messages than many would think.

Certainly the number of family members in that age bracket who were lifelong FF voters, but who deserted them for Labour and others at the last election, precisely because of the austerity measures FF introduced, suggests something interesting afoot. To me, at least, anyway.

Many of us of working age here are, sadly and regardless of whether we’re public or private sector workers, destined to live a quite possibly penurious old age. Unless, something very dramatic, indeed revolutionary, happens in this area…..

Finally, and linked to the above sentiment, I think Robin Blackburn in New Left Review has written some interesting things on the political economy of pensions.

One comment of his sticks in my mind, that of the degree to which the shift from Defined Benefit to Defined Contribution pensions was a critical pillar of the neo-liberal ascendancy and represented a very considerable setback for workers in the advanced capitalist states.

Moreover, it was a shift that was wholly unrecognised and undebated.

Insisting that all pensions be Defined Benefit should be a no-brainer for all left of centre parties and individuals.

The “affordability” of Defined Benefit pensions is a non-debate.

Like

61. Crocodile - July 29, 2009

‘ …the degree to which the shift from Defined Benefit to Defined Contribution pensions was a critical pillar of the neo-liberal ascendancy and represented a very considerable setback for workers in the advanced capitalist states.

Moreover, it was a shift that was wholly unrecognised and undebated.’

Indeed,CMK. Big business has the knack of presenting great changes that are in its own interest as inevitable, as ineluctable as the weather.
In a few years, after things have got much worse, there will be a recovery, and that will be a dangerous time.Men in suits will be visiting government ministers and promising to ‘provide employment’ – so long as all those petty rules about minimum wages, pension provision etc are rolled back – so injurious to competitiveness, don’t you know. And the danger is that we’ll be in such a state by then that we’ll let someone build a dog-food factory in St Stephen’s Green if he promises to take a few people off the dole. Fifty years of (sporadic) advances in workers’ conditions blown away – and not so much by the recession as by the encroaching ‘flexibility’ that preceded it.

Like

62. WorldbyStorm - July 29, 2009

This is what it boils down to CMK and Croc. Money. Everything else is chaff. Talk of equitability in this context is absurd since people like me, and I suspect you CMK, are toast when we haven’t got the wages, or rather the disposable income to put towards pension plans, DB or DC. I’ll never have the option of a real pension above and beyond public provision and I’m weary of the diversionary notion that this is some sort of war with the public sector when in fact it’s a case of a society that, as with McCarthy’s recommendations which don’t address these issues on a societal basis at all, and is utterly content to allow a status quo ante, hybrids more or less excepted, totter on and where me and mine have no security for the future.

I don’t begrudge the PS. Indeed in some respects I hope that its example of best practice, or even a humane practice which doesn’t get bogged down in accounting and bottom lines, or rather doesn’t allow them to overwhelm every debate on this issue, might be extended in part to the rest of us. That though would necessitate a government of the left. Ain’t going to happen any time soon. But don’t expect me to have any sympathy for those in the private sector who are willing in companies, as I’ve directly experienced myself, to ensure that they get excellent pensions provisions above and beyond the average PS employee might expect, while those who work for them get scrapings, PRSA’s if they’re lucky, nowt if they’re not.

Like

63. CMK - July 30, 2009

Crocodile – I agree with you that once the tide goes out on this recession we’ll be a much darker place in terms of the continued “viability” of minimum wage, pension rights, social welfare benefits….

I actually think the real assaults will come once things pick up again and the state and employers can really f**k around with the hundreds of thousands desperate to get off the dole….. All, as you rightly point out, justified by the demands of “competitiveness”.

WBS, you’re right that I can’t afford a private pension, even though in my shift from private to public sector I had built up substanial contributions in the former sector.

My deep feeling regarding the pensions debate, and this bears on whatever kind of private pension one has (DB or DC), is that people are essentially throwing their money into a black hole. One might as well write a cheque every month and send it directly to Denis O’Brien or Tony O’Reilly, as make a contribution to a private pension. That way you’re being both honest with yourself and less deluded.

Private pensions are the possibly the smartest method yet devised by the capitalist class for expropriating wealth from workers. They’re a gigantic IOU which will, in all likelihood, never be paid.

If there ever is a revolution in this country my hunch is that there will be hordes of improverished pensioners at the forefront of it. Particularly those who contributed vast sums to private pensions in the expectation of a comfortable retirement.

A state backed complusory pension, that doesn’t distinguish between private and public sector workers, is the only equitable way to proceed and should be a central pillar for the Left.

Like

64. alastair - July 31, 2009

The reason I don’t have a pension is that I’ve never been paid anywhere near enough during almost twenty years in the private sector to be able to afford one good bad or indifferent. That’s the reason. Not because the products aren’t there, just the amount I’d have to pour in would be too great.

If you had got the money, you still couldn’t buy the same provision. The products aren’t there. The reason? Because that level of provision isn’t a viable commercial product. I note that you still haven’t highlighted one commercial product that does what you claim. Should be simple enough – take the average public sector salary and find a commercial pension product that guarantees the same pension income as would be available to that public service worker.

You claimed that DB schemes in the private sector are now legacy with no new access to new employees in over 55% of cases. I showed that while the number of DB schemes in the private sector has dropped up to 2006/7 the numbers covered increased significantly and they remain open to new entrants and the majority form of scheme.

And…? They’re still being replaced by DC schemes out on a rapid basis, and increasingly restricted in terms of access and benefits. Like I say – any review of the terms of private DB schemes, and the balance between them and DC schemes makes quite clear what way the wind is blowing.

you seemingly won’t even accept there are people in private sector DB pension plans who are walking away, and will continue to walk away, with more than most in the PS. I have sat on Boards and seen it happen. By the by, salary linked works both ways, and no doubt November December will bring more on that.

I don’t doubt that there are high earners in the private sector who generate bigger pension income than lower paid public sector retirees – I never made that claim – why would I? Let’s compare equivalent salaried retirees and see how that plays out.

As to the downside of salary parity – yeah, right!

Like

65. WorldbyStorm - July 31, 2009

You said if one was in the private sector one cannot get a pension as good a public sector one. I’ve pointed out that DB schemes remain open in the private sector. You say ‘that doesn’t count’ because you can’t get one on the open market.

But that’s an odd argument if you think about it for any length of time, because you seem to be basing the proof of inequity on what treatment you as an individual working outside the PS receives since you can’t get a pension from pension providers in the market the equal of one in the PS (by the by did you look at pensions from foreign providers?).

The crux of it, though, is actually quite straightforward.

To access a PS pension I’d have to join the PS. To access a DB scheme I’d have to join a company that offered one. Wherein lies the intrinsic difference between the process that I, or you, would have to engage in to get a DB scheme or a PS pension?

And that’s why I don’t take your contention entirely seriously because what you’re really arguing is for something, equivalent to you or I being able to go to the PS and buy a PS scheme, or go to a private company that had a DB scheme and demand that they give us it as well or that one with equivalent value be made available to us. What private company if you weren’t working for it would give you the time of day if you came demanding the same terms and conditions of pension provision as their employees? It’s up to the pensions industry, not individual companies/PS to produce private pensions which is why it’s all a rotten sham (btw, there’s a document I very much concur with… it’s the TASC report on Pensions, check it out… I particularly like, and agree with the quote from Shane Ross).

You see how illogical that is?

In this instance the PS is equivalent to the private sector employer with a DB scheme. There’s no difference at all. Both have pay/pension arrangements indigenous to themselves. These have developed over time. Both, as we know have seen those change over time. Some DB schemes have become DC schemes, some have remained the same, some have altered the nature of their DB schemes. The PS has had reforms in 1995 (long before DB schemes started to run into choppy waters), 2004, 2008 and now is facing one in 2009 (and despite your belief salary cuts will impact on future pension provision, whatever its form, particularly if the DC/DB hybrid is adopted).

You however treat the private sector as if it were the equivalent of the Public Sector, in other words a single entity, but in this instance you can only compare and contrast individual elements within the private sector with the Public sector, and indeed that’s what generally in better times those in the private sector do when they compare and contrast pay rates either with the PS or with other companies within the private sector. Each is regarded as autonomous unto itself. You don’t like your wage in a company, tough buddy, you have to go elsewhere and get yourself a better one. And so on…

Worse still you’re demanding that the provisions available in one element, the PS, be matched elsewhere. What’s the principle at work here? Why should they be? There is an argument that the PS should set best practice. That may be, as seems likely hybrid (albeit any reading of the literature I’ve done in the last while seems to indicate that DC tilted pensions aren’t worth SFA when it comes down to it and you’d be as well putting your money into the PO).

re comparisons between PS/private sector I’ve rarely heard a company paying under the average compare itself with a PS employment, it will compare itself with a company in the private sector that has a certain equivalence. And in a way I don’t blame it, for the pressure in the private sector is to keep costs down. That unfortunately, as with pensions, leads to a pernicious dynamic.

That’s why your point simply doesn’t work. You can’t get a pension in the PS? So what? You can’t get one, in say, Guinness either. Neither can I. As well complain we don’t work for PwC or Daveys. No doubt we’ll weep into our pints together some evening over it.

Like

66. alastair - July 31, 2009

You say ‘that doesn’t count’ because you can’t get one on the open market.

Nope – I’m saying ‘one’ can’t get one on the open market. You can’t, I can’t, and nor can anyone else.

Worse still you’re demanding that the provisions available in one element, the PS, be matched elsewhere

Eh no. I’m saying (and I thought very clearly) that the provisions of the public sector pension can’t be matched in the commercial market. Quite how that passed you by isn’t clear to me – as I keep re-iterating that very point.

Unaffordable pension provision isn’t ‘best practice’ any more than the overstuffed executive schemes you’ve witnessed are. Take the ESB pension scheme – matches much of the public sector pension provision, but fails to provide certainty of security in the commerical market. That’s no recipe for universalism. My point, once again, is that the public service pension terms can’t apply to the private sector – it’s a preferential scheme which relies on the exchequer to ensure it’s continuance, and as a consequence couldn’t be rolled out into any universal scheme.

The point isn’t that PS pensions are unavailable to everyone, just as Guinness pensions are not – it’s that the very underpinnings of how public sector pensions operate are distinct from every other pension scheme – which are disadvantanged by the contraints of commercial sustainability (Guinness included).

Like

67. WorldbyStorm - July 31, 2009

And I’m saying that in my direct experience I’ve seen people in companies purchasing pension far in excess of the PS pensions which directly contradicts your statement at the start of this thread and the meaning of your subsequent ones and again in my experience makes a joke of ‘commercial sustainability’. And I too continually reiterate that.

And the point is directly that PS and private sector pensions respectively aren’t available to everyone. It’s that simple.

Like

68. alastair - July 31, 2009

You choose to ignore the realities of measured return from like inputs in public sector and private pension schemes on a same-salary basis. It doesn’t really matter that you’ve seen executives stuff money into pension funds in whatever fashion – that’s certainly not a commercially sustainable model to apply across the board. I could win the lottery tomorrow and shove the proceeds into a nice pension fund, but it wouldn’t make the basic terms of that pension more advantagious than a public sector scheme.

Quote (Eddie Hobbs for my sins, but the figures stand regardless):
Civil Servants, Teachers, Garda and High Court judges have pension pots that would require career-long contributions of 27%, 31%, 48% and 87% per annum respectively. The average contribution rate in the private sector is 11%. It’s not higher because people don’t have the money.

Any worker retiring in the public sector on a salary at retirement of €60,000 has a pension pot worth over €1 million but 40% of the private work force have none and most that do have one that is wholly inadequate. This is retirement apartheid, plain and simple.

Those that have none can’t afford them regardless of tax incentives. Those that do can’t afford to put in more. Now you cut tax relief and guess what happens next – you’ll swell the retirement ghetto.

Public sector pension pots that pay 150% tax free cash and 50% pensions are worth between 15 and 18 times the salary paid at retirement. How many private pensions do you reckon will ever come with an asses roar of these staggering numbers?

Read more: http://www.eddiehobbs.com/_blog/EddiesBlog/post/Letter_to_Minister_for_Finance_Brian_Lenihan/

Like

69. WorldbyStorm - July 31, 2009

Good old Eddie! Lifted the figures straight from page 7 of the McCarthy Report, the one you tell me has nowt to do with pensions.

BTW, love the Tory/US Republican talking point about ‘pensions apartheid’…

But seeing as we’re in a reading mood, here’s someone who encapsulates my thoughts almost perfectly (including, including, PS pension reform – and although I think the ‘real problem’ is not the disintegration of private sector pensions but the lack of a proper funded compulsory universal pension her analysis still has considerable traction within that limitation).

And note what she has to say about closure of DBs and the funding gap… hmmmm…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/03/cameron-pensions-public-private-sector

Now you may not agree with her in part or full, but she is perhaps the most respected of her generation of social affairs journalists/commentators in the UK. Worth a hearing.

Like


Leave a comment