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Makes no sense at all… September 16, 2009

Posted by WorldbyStorm in Economy, Irish Politics.
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Reading Stephen Collins today I was much struck by the following, really a part of his there is no alternative mantra.

The sombre prospects ahead were emphasised by Taoiseach Brian Cowen at the start of the two-day Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting at Hodson Bay on the shores of Lough Ree, where he warned his TDs and Senators that he would not shirk the stark realities facing his Government in the days and weeks ahead.
Whether his backbenchers got the message is a moot point.

Hmmm… what ‘message’ could that be?

While most of them spoke at some stage during the “think-in”, a number warned the Minister for Finance against making the kind of cuts in public spending that are likely to provoke strong public opposition.
Ah!

Even those who accepted the need for deep cuts argued for a sensitive approach in the budget.

Now, isn’t that an telling throwaway line? Collins appears – at least to judge from the use of the word ‘even’ in the sentence above to dismiss the idea that a ‘sensitive’ approach is a good idea.

I’m not really surprised. In the world of macho economics, or, to put it another way, let’s inflict cuts that we personally won’t experience to anything like the same degree as those on lower middle and lower incomes will (and let’s be clear, writing for our paper of record is the sort of job which while – admittedly – there have been cuts those at the middle and higher reaches won’t be overly exercised by upcoming tax increases) there’s no end to the rhetoric.

It seems that many backbenchers are an accurate reflection of the continuing public mood of denial about the kind of decisions that have to be made. In broad terms they accept the need for substantial cuts in public spending but they don’t want to accept any of the individual spending cuts recommended in the McCarthy report.

I’ve mentioned this before, this trope of ‘denial’ is an interesting one. There is of course the alternative that the public mood is one where they simply disagree with the proscriptions of Collins and others and seek alternatives. That’s not, in my book, ‘denial’ but a rational approach to our situation. That Collins et al seek to close down any alternatives effectively before they’re articulated is but another reason – perhaps – why many many are dubious of the current ‘solutions’ being put forward.

So, let’s remember that McCarthy and the McCarthy report focused on a figure that was reiterated by the Taoiseach…

During his pep talk the Taoiseach said: “This country is borrowing almost €400 million a week. That cannot continue.” The message was fine but, going by accounts of the meeting, which was held behind closed doors, it seems many TDs didn’t quite get it. They still seem to think that public spending can be slashed in some painless fashion that won’t be noticed. A number of them spoke of the need for a political approach to the budget spending cuts as if pain can actually be avoided.

Now, I’ve noted that there’s some disagreement about that figure. But what I’ve also noted is that even if we take that figure as accurate the the implementation of €3bn ‘savings’ from McCarthy would see a drop to €343 million. However as noted by Michael Taft and others such savings would be unrealisable. A more realistic figure, and one which appears to be underpinned by the ESRI projections is in or around €371 million.

Somehow the sole trader in me – for yes, that’s been part of my shtick too – doesn’t find the line ‘This country is borrowing almost €371 million a week… and that can continue” highly persuasive – and that’s before the socialist in me gets to the issue of what we lose societally for that €29 million saved. And particularly not at the cost that Collins appears to think acceptable.

The mood of the meeting convinced some of the senior figures in the party that the implementation of the detailed recommendations in the McCarthy report will simply prove impossible to sell to the backbenches, never mind the public.

The alternative is to adopt a strategy focused on a few big cuts that will deliver the €3 billion in savings required by Brian Lenihan for next year rather than fight a line by line battle over the 1,000 cuts recommended by McCarthy.

So how does Collins recommend that that occur?

“The only way to deal with this is to cut public sector pay across the board and probably do the same with welfare payments. There will be war, of course, but at least we will face a straightforward battle and not a whole range of debilitating skirmishes that will ultimately leave us weaker politically and probably not get the job done anyway,” said one Minister.

Except there’s a problem there. The figures don’t add up. Even a 5 per cent cut across the board, as advocated by John McHale recently (and note our Stephen is remarkably sanguine about the deflationary effects of such an act) would only save €0.7bn or to put it another €13 million saved a week if it were lashed in in one year, or €6.5 million per week if it is introduced across two. I mention that last because McHale argues for the policy introduced across two years although he is no man of the left – perhaps because he’s a little less sanguine about the deflationary effects… And by the way that would deliver at best .3 per cent reduction in the borrowing requirement.

Which would mean that the €400 million would drop to… €387 million. As I noted not that long ago, I’m feeling safer already.

And here he delivers what he sees as further evidence of ‘denial’ and even outright LMF (or should that be L of economic MF) from the political front line…

The indications are that the parliamentary party doesn’t really have the stomach for the big bang approach but then again it doesn’t want the incremental approach either.
Theirs a mutiny in the ranks… the cowardly bastards are cutting and running because they won’t accept ‘cutting’.

“Cutting welfare is just out of the question,” said one TD.

My God, they’ve even, some of them found hearts… closely connected it would appear to their political brains…

“It goes to the heart of what this party is about and we won’t do it,” he added, but didn’t have any alternative to suggest.

Yes, well. Ask an FF backbencher an economic question and expect a partial answer.

That, in a nutshell, is the problem facing Fianna Fáil and facing the country. Everybody can agree that something drastic needs to be done but nobody wants to do it.

But his proscription seems to be essentially cosmetic. The ‘drastic’ action would result in rather less than spectacular results, financially speaking, while still seeing nothing near a significant reduction in our borrowing requirement. Perhaps a bit more ‘denial’ would be no harm. No harm at all.

BTW…Worth noting as well that Collins appears to be swinging back towards a position where he just barely acknowledges the coalition can weather the political storms ahead. Interesting.

Comments»

1. EamonnCork - September 16, 2009

It makes me sorry, sorry somehow.

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2. WorldbyStorm - September 16, 2009

Damn you, I’m going through their albums looking for suitable names for a companion piece on wages in public and private sectors! 🙂

Still haven’t got the issue of the magazine yet, will tomorrow. I’ve been listening to a lot of Neu recently (admittedly not a hugely varied endeavour if one restricts oneself to the second album!).

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3. Crocodile - September 16, 2009

Article by Polly Toynbee in yesterday’s Guardian, arguing that the UK should impose no public spending cuts, but borrow, borrow, borrow to preserve the social fabric. Not a particularly thoughtful argument or impressive article – I only mention it because such a piece would be inconceivable in the Irish media, where it’s taken for granted that we’re all in the ‘real world’ and there’s no such thing as society.
As for Mr Collins – well, I commented months ago that the media drumbeat was leading up to only one thing – another public sector pay cut. ‘Won’t accept a pay cut, nurse? Well, the alternative is to cut services to sick children. The public won’t forgive you.’
The publicity given to the Fás expenses is, I’m afraid, part of this. I’m not defending waste, but the endless headlines about Fás and the Bull are part of the following syllogism: these guys wasted public money – we’re short of public money – public service waste must be to blame. Therefore: hammer the public sector while pouring billions into the banks – they’re of ‘systemic importance’.

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4. WorldbyStorm - September 16, 2009

In a way I don’t much care on one level about public sector pay levels, bar a sympathy to anyone who sees a pay packet diminish. Clearly something off the top layer of public sector employees is no harm, already there have been cuts (something Collins completely ignores) and there will – unfortunately, and to my mind near pointlessly given the math and the economics – be more. But my real problem here is just how much this is cosmetic and how much it is being used as a diversionary tactic as you note.

I also think there’s a fetishistic element to this in the sense that given the scale of the problem it reduces to a ‘do something, anything’ level. Chuck third level free fees overboard, slash wages by 5%, 10%, 50% (in some superheated comments on the web)… just do it!

And that, I believe is due to an absolute inability on the part of our commentariat and political elite to think in a truly radical way beyond a sort of received orthodoxy which is essentially a reheat of 80s Thatcherite nostrums. It’s not that they’re bad, it’s that they’re wrong.

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5. alastair - September 16, 2009

Even the sugar coating of Husker Du fails to disguise the basic facts at play here.

You damn the advocacy of public spending to reduce national borrowing overhead on the basis that it fails to provide a sole solution to our ongoing income/outgoings problem. You also play a bit of a fudge game with accepting that there is a real, actual, and existant problem with out income/expenditure. So let’s assume that you’re only interested in a proposal (or set of) which makes major inroads into bridging the revenue gap, and that you suspect that the shortfall may be less than claimed by some.

When you talk about the ‘there is no alternative mantra’ you’re talking about the dismissal of increased borrowing as a proposed solution – because that’s the only other game in town if you choose to opt out of the borrowing/cuts combo that is the game on offer. Now, unless I’m very mistaken, there’s not been any real attempt to quantify the cost (and achievability) of an increased borrowing alternative by it’s advocates, and to point to the future domestic revenue streams that would manage the rapid build-up of national debt that this approach would incur. That’s not even to touch on the probability that any achievable borrowing capacity would look just as insipid in bridging the gap between national revenues and outgoings.

An unbiased reading of the situation would suggest that there is no mechanism that provides a solution that bridges the gap in anything other than the long term (like 10 years). It’s simply not possible. All the best intentions for protecting social services amount to little if the money runs out, and by my reading, any proposed mechanism (including ramping up borrowing) fails to secure the recent purse for public services. Whatever route we go, the reality is that there’s less money for the state to spread around. Something needs to give, and the real debate is about what that something is, not about whether we can keep the purse as was or not. That’s what makes no sense at all.

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6. alastair - September 16, 2009

that should of course be:

…advocacy of public spending cuts…

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7. alastair - September 16, 2009

such a piece would be inconceivable in the Irish media, where it’s taken for granted that we’re all in the ‘real world’ and there’s no such thing as society.

When did this dichotomy between pragmatism and social consciousness appear? Might it not be the case (in the ‘real world’) that what’s best for society is fiscal rectitude now, rather than greater indebtedness (and the associated social ills that brings) down the road?

The implication that the motivation for spending cuts is all about some anti-societal project the fatcats/right wing/man/FF/SBP/the media/free-marketeers want to foist on us strikes me as a little paranoid. Public service waste is undeniably of concern to anyone who genuinely wants to sort out the economy, and protect social structures. The collapse of property developer portfolios has also been all over the media too, but I imagine you don’t read that as a syllogism for pumping money into the banks, given that it reflects badly on the banks credibility? It’s just the news.

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8. WorldbyStorm - September 16, 2009

Let’s put aside the near-imputation of bad faith on my part and let’s consider a couple of things. As I said on another thread this evening, I’m not an economist political or otherwise, I can’t offer clear cut ready made solutions. What I can do within the broad framework of my political and economic belief system, my own understanding of government, economy and business, is throw some light on the contradictions I see.

A glaring one for a democratic socialist/social democrat? The minimal nature of the suggested cuts as against their maximalist impact on the social fabric. The tiny bite taken out of borrowing as against the exaggerated claims to the contrary by the commentariat.

The issue of sustained borrowing? Well everyone else is at it, so why can’t we? indeed we’re just about to see massive sustained borrowing that dwarfs all else if NAMA goes ahead, as it most likely will… but note that in the Times this week Anatole Kaletsky, an economist of the right said of Tory economic plans…

“To tighten fiscal policy immediately beyond the measures already announced in the last Budget could be a big mistake on the part of the Tories, since the recovery that is now only just starting is unlikely to have developed a self-sustaining momentum by next May or June.

“Indeed, every finance minister and central bank governor at last weekend’s G20 meeting agreed that 2010 would be too early to start reversing the macroeconomic stimulus programmes that have saved the global economy from a 1930s-style collapse. For the Tories to put themselves in a minority of one on this issue is perverse — not only because a major fiscal tightening next year could abort recovery, but also because there is almost no risk that investors will dump sterling or refuse to finance the British Government’s deficit at a time when other major economies are also running deficits that are almost as large.”

And us too it could be said given that some have argued the UK Govt. is in worse shape than us in terms of ability to raise funds internationally through borrowing.

As regard alternatives, well you can comment as well as I can using mouse, keyboard and computer over on Notes on the Front or Progressive Economy or wherever, something that, AFAIK you don’t do, a puzzle to me but one I ascribe to you having known me and feeling that I present perhaps an easier target. It’s true, I’m no more an economist than you. But if you did bother yourself to visit there here’s a few suggestions for you to chew over on your way…

Extension of tax base – dismissed by the Commission on Taxation wedded to the low tax model and further cut again by the government unwilling to even introduce a property tax. Go look at the HERMES projections to see the impact of increased taxes. Note the sudden inability to implement harsh measures on the part of a government that loves harshness.

Kill pension reserve fund, at least until the situation stabilises.

Wage cuts? Sure, but targeted wage cuts to promote a genuine fiscal stimulus package.

There’s more but that’ll keep you going…

As for the alternative you posit. I’ve already detailed what we lose if McCarthy is implemented. The measures necessary to ‘bridge’ unbridgeable gaps would rip this society’s heart out. That’s a reality that an ‘unbiased reading’ tells me. If it’s not possible to bridge the gap in anything other than the long term the attrition to our society isn’t worth it. And putting best intentions aside – since I actually value those social services for themselves above and beyond cost – it is the absolute necessity for a civilised society to protect them. Your logic is one where we cannot protect them, it can’t be done. There simply isn’t a way of doing so by the logic of cuts. The gap is too large. Therefore that’s not an option.

Again, destroy the village to save it? Thanks, but no thanks.

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9. alastair - September 16, 2009

I actually value those social services for themselves above and beyond cost

That’s all well and good, but they do have a cost. And the issue is whether that cost is sustainable. Not much point in planning for a hearty meal today if it means an empty bowl tomorrow.

Who advocates destroying the village to save it btw? The village operated just fine on a much lower overhead for many years, and it can again if needs be. No doubt there’s much in the way of misguided and damaging cutbacks being proposed, but its also true that there’s much scope for better use of smaller budgets. A roll-back to 2002-3 vintage costs and overheads would be my personal guideline, and that need not involve any social apocalypse. The realistic baseline for both our national economy and therefore the social provision we can afford resides in that ballpark, and no amount of idealism or optimism will change that (imo). Whatver debt we take on (and how we spend it) needs to take account of that sort of economic baseline.

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10. WorldbyStorm - September 16, 2009

You see that’s the problem with your brand of bluntness. If the issue is whether the cost is sustainable then there is no bottom line. Everything could and would go in the effort to bridge the gap. On education alone we spend about €10bn (inclusive of current expenditure). Jettison it in total? We don’t come close. Add in the Department of Health. €15 bn. Still not there.

So the question is how it is practicable to soak the sort of savings that are necessary to return to 2003, and whether that alone would be sufficient to do the job. What sort of realism does that entail?

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alastair - September 19, 2009

You see that’s the problem with your brand of bluntness. If the issue is whether the cost is sustainable then there is no bottom line. Everything could and would go in the effort to bridge the gap. On education alone we spend about €10bn (inclusive of current expenditure). Jettison it in total? We don’t come close. Add in the Department of Health. €15 bn. Still not there.

So the question is how it is practicable to soak the sort of savings that are necessary to return to 2003, and whether that alone would be sufficient to do the job. What sort of realism does that entail?

Hmm. I’m not sure how the jump from the necessity to run services on a sustainable basis turned into a recipe for jettisoning both education and health provision. There’s some over-egging at play here.

If my guesstimate that our economic capacity to support state services has fallen back to 2002 style amounts (which I’m prepared to be corrected on – but that’s the ballpark we arrive at when you removed the property-led economy), then we have that sort of revenue to throw at the range of state overheads. Now my memory of 2002 is that both schools and hospitals remained open for business, so I’d expect that the same would be the same if we returned to budgeting similar amounts once again.

I’ll repeat what I’ve already said – it’s impossible to bridge the gap – that’s why we have to borrow and that’s why we have to cut expenditure. Sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that 2007 revenues are around the corner (even if we ramp up taxation as we should to ensure social provision is protected from whatever manner of bubble), and that we can borrow to that end, is setting ourselves up for another fall. That’s where the realism comes into play. Wanting a thing to be, and being in a position to make it so are distinct things. Wanting the state purse to stick at 2007 levels is only going to end up in disappointment.

The practicality of returning to living within 2002 type means? Way above the practicality of trying to sustain 2007 type expenditure on the back of borrowing.

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WorldbyStorm - September 20, 2009

Let me give you a couple of real-world examples to show that the 2002 trope, attractive as it is – but pulled from where exactly? – doesn’t quite stack up. Community creches saw their fees double from circa €300 to €660 this Summer. That’s not bringing us back to 2002 because many of these didn’t exist in 2002. It’s effectively pricing people out of so-called ‘subsidised’ child care. And that was on foot not of McCarthy, which those in the community sector are already clear will gut it financially, but the last two Budgets.
So the likelihood of losing that provision entirely is far from unlikely. And of course that’s no surprise even if we do accept the idea that 2002 is the base line since that’s now almost a decade behind us. Imagine, by way of further example, someone saying in 1970 when you and I were in national school, we’ll go back to 1962 levels of provision. We’d lose free secondary, etc, etc. That’s the scale that we’re looking at here.
Example number two. The PLC in community and VECsis now swamped this Summer by a massive influx of new students. But, budgets have been slashed. So the schools record the hghest number of entrants this decade but are having to try to cope with them with diminishing funds. That’s going to get worse as the recession continues. And that points up to two issues that the 2002 approach doesn’t take into account, firstly that we’ve seen a population increase since 2002 (the strain on the education sector is particularly great, but it’s clearly not alone) and that we’re now in the midst of a recession so that the alternatives available in 2002 ie. work, etc to soak up numbers and pull people away from state provision simply aren’t there. Given that teachers hours are capped students today are not getting a 2002 level of education, but one that is much less. Now, I don’t think it’s a wise idea (given the hours teachers work already) to uncap them and to do so would take a considerable length of time. So we’re really not talking lke and like.

Given that we’re not going back to 2002 levels, which would be inadequate to deal with both those factors alone (and there are many more factors, I’m just using these as examples). And it goes, and I know you didn’t use the word in a glib way, well beyond disappointment. I think it’s vital to protect those services, but they’re already overstretched before we hit our supposed destination with pain. And McCarthy then whips away layers of provision – free third level fees, universal child benefit – which were available in 2002.

Look, I’m not going to convince you, which is fair enough, and you’re not going to convince me either. But I’m hugely dubious that we can run this society in a reasonable fashion if this back to the past sort of approach is regarded as viable. There are many who won’t suffer if that route is taken, but there are many more who will, and even now before such measures as McCarthy suggests are implemented, are already suffering.

BTW, re community creches I need hardly add that the changing price structure will change the class composition of them (not that there aren’t subsidies available, but given stagnant wages and increasing prices etc). Unintended consequence no doubt, but…

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CMK - September 20, 2009

What of those who, in 2002, took on huge financial committements that would last anything from 25 years to 40 years i.e. huge mortgages on overpriced residential properties? If we cut wages back further and further, these committments become harder to service and we go from a position where one third of after tax income is spent servicing mortgages to one where one-half, three-fifths or more, are required. That’s not an unrealistic prospect with the banks and building societies signalling their intention to raise interest rates as soon as it’s decent to do so. And with the ECB sure to starting raising them soon, too. What then?

My problem with your analysis is that all of the pain is pushed onto the shoulders of workers. In my example above the State should insist on interest rates being kept low and could, for instance, come up with ways in which mortgages could be re-valued in the interests of mortgage holders on primary residences.

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11. alastair - September 16, 2009

As regard alternatives, well you can comment as well as I can using mouse, keyboard and computer over on Notes on the Front or Progressive Economy or wherever, something that, AFAIK you don’t do, a puzzle to me but one I ascribe to you having known me and feeling that I present perhaps an easier target.

Easier target? It’s not about you. It’s about the issue as presented. This is a blog about ideas is it not?

The wisdom of the UK approach to their economic woes is something I’m not going to pretend to understand enough to comment on, but I’m pretty damn sure that their capacity to use domestic industrial productivity to manage debt is in a different ballpark to our own. Maybe their fiscal stimulus deal will work for them, but that doesn’t mean that the same mechanism would work here. I’m highly sceptical of our capacity to ramp up domestic exports in any sort of useful timescale.

I’m no advocate of low taxes, quite the contrary, though I don’t see that there’s a solution to our current problems in introducing a bit of sense to the taxation overhead.

I’ve no problem with killing the pension reserve fund to help get out of this fix, but that suggests a re-think of the sustainability of current state pension provision (and that means the public sector pension overhead, all things being equal). That’s the only rainy day fund to support the terms of those pensions as things stand.

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WorldbyStorm - September 16, 2009

No, not so much about me… I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, you know my knowledge of economics is about equal to yours and yet you persist in remaining here. So it has to be something about here rather than, say NOTF or PE? Now it could be me, since we’ve known each other previously and you’ve certainly had greater license here on my part than if it were otherwise, or it could be you

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WorldbyStorm - September 16, 2009

No disagreement as regards a rethink of all pension provision and the introduction of universal pensions. If this is a time of crisis then that sort of serious rethink is vital and that means that the ridiculous patchwork quilt and very partial one at that of private pension provision must be reworked entirely. There are obvious models which allow for universality with efficiency and lower costs due to wider bases.

I don’t quite understand why broadening the tax base and increasing taxes in a strategic way wouldn’t be a central part of dealing with expenditure.

As to the UK, of course it’s not directly applicable but I put that in as ameans of suggesting that even putting aside our relative position in relation to debt compared to our EU partners the situation on borrowing is much much less grave even for the UK which ran into trouble earlier in the year in terms of being able to finance borrowings than our own situation.

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12. Crocodile - September 16, 2009

‘ The national economy is not like a household’s bills. There is no urgent rush to pay down a deficit that is the same as most other similar countries’ –’
So says Polly Toynbee in the article I refer to above – and Michael Taft’s site provides ample evidence that we’re in no worse deficit position than the UK.
‘Paranoid’ is an easy term to throw around. If the budget this autumn is used to broaden the tax base and impose as much ‘pain’ as possible on the people who caused this crisis rather than the people who’ve suffered from it, I plead guilty. If it’s used to settle old right-wing scores – to cut benefits and public service wages – I’ll feel vindicated. It’s not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

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13. WorldbyStorm - September 16, 2009

Well I think that’s a fair point Crocodile. Consider too the sums about to be paid out on NAMA, sums that will come from borrowing because they can come from nowhere else.

Again this comes down to radically different views of the world and what is worth protecting and what isn’t.

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14. CMK - September 16, 2009

We’re reaching intense levels of socio-economic cognitive dissonance -and certain contributions to this thread are exquisite examples of this development.

We’re being told we can’t go on borrowing 400m a week to keep the state running until such time as conditions improve globally.

Yet today we learn the state will have to borrow 54bn at least, to fund NAMA – that’s 135 weeks of current borrowing in addition to the current 400bn.

There are some powerful psychological forces at work in any individual who can simultaneously believe that you can’t do X and at the same time believe that only conceivable solution to a problem is to do X.

Maybe someone with more psychological insight than I have could explain that one to me?

I’m raging at the what I’m hearing about NAMA and I think we’re in for one long hot winter. Bring it on!

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WorldbyStorm - September 16, 2009

Yes there is something of a contradiction isn’t there in all these things. Most notably in the concept that the actual business of a state ensuring the day to day welfare of its citizens is mortgaged to the benefit of the financial sector whose much more nebulous interaction in the health of the state and supposed centrality and imperviousness to replacement by different entities is apparently beyond question. A benefit which is hotly contested even by centre and right wing economists (fair dues to CG on the news this evening remembering the tax payer).

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15. Crocodile - September 16, 2009

Are we to believe, CMK, that the money markets will not lend us a certain sum of money to run our society, but will lend us multiples of that sum to bail out our banks? Are we a good risk or not? If we can pay back the money we borrow to keep Anglo Irish and Nationwide going, why can’t we pay back the money we borrow to pay nurses and guards?
Could it be that the people making the decisions espouse a world view that sees Michael Fingleton as an asset but a special needs teacher as a liability?

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CMK - September 17, 2009

Crocodile, yes I think what you describe is the essence of where the state is going. And, yes again, I do think FF believe that Fingers and Seanie are of more systemic importance to the state than the legions of parasitical public sector workers who are dragging us to bankruptcy etc, etc.

Looking at the 9 o’clock news last night, the two property developers interviewed about NAMA were remarkably cheery. These guys know NAMA ain’t gonna bite them and their mates in FF will “look after” them. Contrast that with the hundreds of thousands of public sector workers, of which I am one, who know in their bones that real hardship is on the way in the next budget. And the hundreds of thousands on the dole who won’t be getting the paltry Christmas “bonus”, while pay for higher management keeps rising.

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16. WorldbyStorm - September 17, 2009

Well that’s sort of what I’m getting at… banks need 55bn plus… here’s the cheque. Social services… we have to wait. Now there’s something a little awry with those values. At the very least.

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CMK - September 17, 2009

That’s it precisely. I think the consensus management specialists in the PR industry and media can help the government get NAMA on the books – but over the next five to ten years they’ll have difficulty reconciling the State’s committments under NAMA and its conflicting commitments to, you know, its citizens and taxpayers.

NAMA may well be the best thing that ever happened to the Irish Left as its very existence and objectives undercut much of the crap about what a disaster it would be if the Left ever got into governement. It’s inconceivable that we’d be in this perilous situation if a Labour or left-of-Labour government were in power. That perspective needs to be to the forefront when talking to Fianna Fail and Fine Gael voters who, in a few year’s time, are getting closer to the breadline with each passing year while, as will surely be the case, the news is full of shite about the government writing off repayments, discounting loans, etc due under NAMA. A left wing approach will hopefully seem attractive. Get busy!!

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EamonnCork - September 17, 2009

I’d love to think you’re right (though I’d prefer if NAMA never happened at all). Yet it’s striking that when the state was in an even greater financial mess and unemployment topped 15% every year from 1984 to 1989, with emigration running at an annual 2% or thereabouts of the population, what we ended up with was the PDs. FF and coalition administrations proved themselves economically incompetent all through the eighties yet they never paid any electoral price despite a mood of almost total national disenchantment and demoralisation. Perhaps I’m being unduly pessimistic.

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17. Crocodile - September 17, 2009

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/17/collapse-of-the-left

The Guardian again, Deborah Orr this time, and food for thought in Ireland, too.

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18. CMK - September 17, 2009

Eamonn – no, I think your assessment is probably more accurate than mine and that I’m being overly optimistic. Nonetheless, there is “something in the air” that differs substantially from previous patterns in Irish political life and history.

It’s clear that our society is being restructured radically to ensure that it functions in the interests of bond-holders and the global financial markets. Now, that was always the case, to a degree. What’s different now is that these new socio-economic structures are naked, explicit, clear to all and they can’t be plausibly denied.

That’s why I think there is a clear opening for the Left in NAMA. To appropriate a phrase “There is No Alternative” to some form of socialism/social democracy to ensure that post-NAMA Irish society incorporates some degree of fairness and social justice.

But, I acknowledge, I’m probably wrong, dead wrong.

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19. Pavement Trauma - September 17, 2009

In one sense we have to do a NAMA (or something similar) because we are borrowing so much. I’ll explain why.

For reasons I have to yet to grasp the debts of each countries’ banks have become some sort of subordinated sovereign debt of those countries (and not just here where we explicitly guaranteed those debts). Allowing your banks to default on their debts and somehow it is the country of the banks that takes the beating (effectively getting locked out of credit markets) – unless of course that country is the US.

Presumably most people think, as I do, that this is a piss poor state of affairs but the question is do we want to be the first ones to test out if it is the case or not? Our esteemed leaders do not and I reluctantly feel they are probably right. So no bank debt defaults and hence NAMA or something like it (it wouldn’t matter greatly if we nationalised them instead, they have a negative worth, we still end up paying the bill).

So one reason why our esteemed leaders won’t dare challenge the credit markets is that they know we will be tapping those markets for at very least ~20bn, 18bn, 15bn, 10bn and 6bn over the next five years – and that is assuming all goes according to their highly optimistic plan (which of course it won’t). So it is not really a choice between borrowing to fund public services or borrowing to fund NAMA, we are in the horrible position of having to do both – or neither.

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WorldbyStorm - September 17, 2009

As it happens I broadly agree with your analysis. We do have to borrow to do both. One way or another there would be a pressure of greater or lesser extent on the public purse to either replace or support the banking sector (I’ll bet we will be looking at effective nationalisation of at least another bank sooner rather than later). And beyond that there’s little that can be done I suspect to derail NAMA at this point. My problem is that it is illogical to say that the lower sum is impossible to sustain when we can (or must) afford the higher sum. These aren’t choices, particularly given the partial nature of our social welfare net, they’re necessities in any advanced capitalist democracy.

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alastair - September 19, 2009

That Vincent Browne piece with Karl Whelan the other night raised an interesting aspect to the dynamic of where the NAMA money’s going. If, as he implied, much of the money and/or ‘haircut’ has been absorbed by Anglo Irish, and the other banks are comparitively carrying less of a bail-out, then how much of that 7 billion gamble is effectively still within nationalised coffers? How much of it would be within nationalised coffers if AIB or BoI are forced into nationalisation?

Whelans’s support for nationalisation seems somewhat at odds with his concern that much of the NAMA risk/money could well be going into the one nationalised bank we do have.

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WorldbyStorm - September 20, 2009

That’s a very fair point and something that should be teased out.

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20. Pavement Trauma - September 17, 2009

It strikes me that Labour should be going for the big prize – not to overtake Fine Gael and become the larger coalition party but to replace Fianna Fail as the ‘natural’ party of government.

Depending on when the next election is, FF could be heading for a similar fate to the Canadian Progressive Conservative Party in 1993 – utter wipeout. And who would shed a tear as such a prospect?

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