Archbishop’s memory of ‘huge numbers’ April 24, 2024
Posted by WorldbyStorm in Uncategorized.trackback
Had a bit of sympathy for the Archbishop of Dublin when he noted that:
The decline in priests and practice among Catholics in Dublin “confronts us with something new, but something we do not clearly understand. We feel perplexed, even that the Lord has abandoned us. We feel that we have lost our way. These are important parts of our journey,” Archbishop of Dublin Dermot Farrell has said.
The “memory of huge numbers, and of a secure, strong Church”, can be “a very painful learning for us,” he said.
He was speaking at the Church of the Sacred Heart, Donnybrook, on Sunday evening at a ceremony where 45 lay people received certificates following completion of a year-long course in Catechesis (teaching Christianity). “Generously, you have given of your time – to engage with your faith,” he said.
He continued that “even 20 years ago, hardly anyone here could have imagined an evening like this”.
A bit of sympathy. Not an unlimited amount. Because so much of the plight the Catholic Church finds itself in is of its own making. Rigid, unyielding, unsympathetic, consumed by sexuality, and that’s all long before we get to the various scandals and cover-ups.
And I doubt that 20 years ago people would have found the realities impinging on the Catholic Church such that there would be a massive decline in vocations and so on difficult to countenance. In the 1990s I knew someone, very casually, who had joined and then left an order. Even then the numbers were in free-fall. I think if I recall correctly they were one of a couple of people who were going through the process and the order spoke of the old days when there were scores of people. So thirty odd years ago the dynamics were well in train. And the outcomes were predictable.
“One of the contours of this new place we are brought [to] is the diminishing number of priests available to serve in the parishes and other ministries in the Archdiocese, and a reducing number of people who celebrate the sacraments regularly, and the increased resources required to maintain the existing parish infrastructure,” he said.
This meant “it is no longer possible for me to appoint a resident priest to every parish.” It would mean greater co-operation between parishes in providing sacraments and pastoral care, and required “a much greater involvement of the lay faithful in the partnerships of parishes to enable them to fulfil their mission and ministry.”
But as noted on here not that long ago, the tide was already going out long before that. I could see it in Kilbarrack where growing numbers of men, in particular, did not attend Mass in the 1970s. I’ve wondered at that – clearly there was a loosening of society, a broadening too in some respects. It’s easy to say it was television, or social mores changing in the 1960s. Or Vatican II. Or the illiberalism of the religion leaving it isolated in an increasingly, if partially, more liberal world. Increasing societal wealth was a key factor as well. In so many ways the Catholic Church – all religions, all larger religions, found themselves ill-prepared and structured for those challenges.
Again, all this before the scandals and cover-ups.
John-Paul II’s arrival on these shores was a high-point that concealed intrinsic weakness. And those huge numbers – what did they actually mean? Were they truly representative of a mass adherence to Catholicism? Or were they the result of embedded social pressures? Because the glum truth, from his perspective, might well be that given a choice people walked out of churches when they were given the opportunity to do so and largely never walked back in.
Just so happens that myself and my fiancee completed the marriage course last weekend, the one required if you want to get married inside a church (I’d describe myself as a a lapsed Catholic, happy to identify as Christian but with very little time for much of the Catholic structures, she’s more spiritual). Most of it was fine, but there were elements that were essentially the attending priest lecturing the audience about, in no particular order:
-Church control of schools (it was a good thing, if we’d just think about it for more than five seconds)
-Lack of numbers at mass (there was a certain blame placed on COVID for that, which seemed a stretch)
-Couples marrying in a church who do not regularly attend mass (fair enough, there’s a double standard there, but his scornful tone did not make the prospect attractive: he proudly related a story of him refusing to marry a couple from his parish he knew did not attend)
-A lack of volunteers to work within local churches
It made most people present very uncomfortable. Contemplating deeper reasons why people were not attending services didn’t really come into his thinking in that moment it seemed, and he came off very, very angry about the grower irrelevancy of his role and the Church.
Got the piece of paper anyway.
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Rather than giving people a reason to take part by inspiring them with practical action in communities (have they heard of the story of Jesus?) or encouraging them with a positive welcome, seems like the clergy are relying on the age-old sense of entitlement – and failing to see how well that’s going. 👎🏻
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I’m almost surprised the pre-marriage course is still a thing. We did it in 1992, in the College of Industrial relations in Ranelagh of all places, which gave us a bit of a laugh. All I can remember about it was the surprise at the stating-the-bleeding-obvious nature of the material, and the fact that some of the couples clearly hadn’t considered some of the topics to be obvious at all. So back then at least maybe it did serve some sort of purpose? The other thing I remember was bunking off early to go for a nice meal in Ranelagh, back in the times when there weren’t that many nice places to eat in, pre Celtic Tiger.
As for the current Archbishop of Dublin, he was previously the PP in Dunboyne in Meath where my in-laws are based, so I’ve had the dubious pleasure of sitting through a few of his masses over the years at funerals and anniversaries. He’s a miserable entitled one, not popular with the locals by all accounts.
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I’d say 90% of the course was useful stuff about communication and resolving conflict, and totally non-religious in that.
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Not the worst idea in the world to have pre-marriage courses – for everyone getting married.
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True, but the course being designed and delivered by people who themselves have no lived experience of being married is more than a little bit ridiculous.
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Completely agree. That’s almost farcical.
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Me and her still share laughs about some of the stuff that went on in our pre-marriage course back in the day.
I remember a few things about it. One being that a lot of sex starts with doing the washing up. I think Sharon Stone was in a film where there was a bit of that!
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That would come under the heading of “love language” Banjo, “acts of service”. Don’t Google or of your feeds will start filling with pop psychology articles and relationship advice. Unless you want a break from the updates about the war in Ukraine of course, which seem to be constantly pushed into my feeds too. (On the off chance that Mark Zuckerberg or whoever runs Google are reading the CLR, could you ask your algorithm people to dial down the monomaniacal push of articles about these things and randomnly introduce a bit more variety, as in less is more, thanks.)
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When we got married in 2016, we wanted the version of the ceremony where an atheist (me) can get married in a Catholic church, i.e. minimal religious content, no communion, main focus on the I-do-I-do-you-may-kiss-the-bride-part.
We were lucky as the parish priest down in Ballyfermot used to be the curate in my folks’ parish, I’d met him a couple of times in the folks’, lovely man.
Our pre-nuptial “course,” such as it was, was a couple of casual teatime chats down in his house. No lectures or stating the obvious, he figured we were old enough to get the concept of marriage. My abiding memory of it:
Fr Joe: “Now I need you both to be open to the possibility of your marriage being blessed with children.”
Her nibs: “No problem.”
Me: “Is it OK if I say I’m open but I’m not hopin’?”
Fr Joe: “I am robbing that line.”
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Hahahah, that’s excellent!
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It came up as an incidental remark in a recent History Ireland podcast (I think the one on Wolfe Tone) that the RCC hierarchy’s hold on the population has waxed and waned over the centuries. The early 20th c. grip, with mass memberships of sodalities and the like, might plausibly be seen as just one particular high tide which ebbed again.
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I’ve had some recent tangential contact with the CofE on a local basis and one thing that’s surprising to this very lapsed Catholic: the church in question, a historic and very impressive building, is used for absolutely everything – playgroups, silent discos, markets, anything you care to mention. The CofE seems reconciled completely to having lost the flock, but still sees community service as a duty – and a duty to everyone, one that, in the context of a shrinking state, and a savage assault on the poor, is very necessary. Whereas – and there may well be examples to the contrary – the RCC in Ireland still sees itself as the boss church and finds it difficult to encounter people where they are rather than where they would wish they were: on their knees.
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The CofE seems reconciled completely to having lost the flock, but still sees community service as a duty
The CoE is the established church in England, i.e. part of the state, and therefore unlikley to just go away. Whereas the RCC have clearly always seen themselves as above such temporal powers, except where they can be enlisted to help Church goals.
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Sure, but the way it interprets ‘not going away’ is interesting and not quite what you- or at least I – would expect.
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Yep to that about the use of CofE church buildings. All those relatively unused church buildings around Dublin, all those people sleeping in tents and on the streets. It looks to me like an open goal for followers of Jesus. But what do they/we do? Pass.
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Yep, that’s true, wonder what rationale has been put forward for not opening the doors?
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looks like an obvious point too… check out the millions of square metres of uni up oued and cosy offices shutting at 6 or 7 every night… but business has no social responsibility, just make money and promote a green agenda
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*of empty and cosy offices
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Covid certainly had an effect up here.Numbers never recovered.As an a la carte Catholic myself,I was a non attender for 2 years during Covid and when I eventually returned the drop in numbers was very noticeable. Also people just don’t listen to what the clergy say on political and social issues. Attempts to influence voting by castigating SF have failed miserably.
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Agreed, I think Covid did do numbers in even further. It’d be useful to get a sense of church attendance both sides of the border actually. There’s a further thing you point to – the gap between the rhetoric used and the actual direction of people socially and politically which is true of the whole island, and not just in relation to SF.
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My local CofI clergyman and his family have taken a Ukrainian couple into their home. It would be interesting to know how many RC priests have.
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Well, anecdote, a friend of mine is a priest in a Dublin suburb. They had a priest’s house to spare and the PP said he was going to sell it. My friend told him the parishioners would be up in arms so instead they gave it to a Ukrainian family and the same family was snowed under with presents and Irish generosity from the neighbours. Yes, RC clergy can be good people too!
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Didn’t do a pre marriage course as we just said to the Priest (Who I had known all my life as he kept bees with my Dad) that we didn’t need to do one.
Incidentally was looking at old party leaflets, papers etc recently to do with housing and one thing built with most new estates/areas back in the day was a church. It’s mad looking at all the new suburbs being built in the last 30 years and not a steeple between them!
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From churches to pubs. Reminds me of a thing me da told me. He said that back in the day when Jim Larkin was a TD or city councillor (old Jim or young Jim, historians?), he used to object strenuously if there was a proposal to build a pub in any Corporation estates that were being built. Presumably because he saw the damage drink can do to families and communities.
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To quote “The boys of Wexford” – “Twas drink that brought us down”!
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I grew up in the Eighties in England and when I was really young we would go to our local RC church at least monthly but at some point we just stopped going. My parents still identify as Catholic and have the crucifixes and Marys around the house but I don’t think they really believe, it’s more of a cultural thing, part of their Irish identity like watching Mrs Browns Boys.
Us kids did go to Catholic schools but the nuns and priests mainly just put everyone off I can’t imagine that any of my school friends would be religious now.
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When I wrote my book on Christian socialism I found that young people and radical people bought a copy.
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